Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 July 5
July 5
[edit]- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Procedural close/not actionable. This has been open for over two weeks without any clear agreement on how to proceed and discussion appears to have fizzled out. To be clear, that's not to say that there aren't any issues here that do need addressing. And while it has been suggested that the file may be eligible for fair use, there's no consensus on which usages of the file should be retained and which usages should be removed. I'm closing this with no prejudice to renomination provided that a new nomination makes it clear what is being requested (e.g. deletion or convert to non-free where each specific image usage is named). Also, would like to take the opportunity to remind folks that open-ended questions about copyrights/files should be directed to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions first before jumping straight to a mass-nomination. Thanks, Fastily 02:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Bathers with a turtle.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Lithoderm (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. Also, SLAM claims copyright; it's unclear how valid that is. grendel|khan 00:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, this painting is the subject of its own page where the image is irreplaceable and illustrative (too many artwork nominations at once of major artists such as Matisse and Derain, please limit your noms, thanks). Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - There are some odd quirks that come from the "publication" rule, and I believe the nominator is correct to question these images. There are definitely instances where a work this old can still be copyrighted in the United States. It's not super common, but it can happen, mostly when it comes to works first published outside the U.S., and usually only in select American states that are under the jurisdiction of the 9th circuit (you can read more here). Unfortunately, because WikiMedia's HQ is in California, that means all US WikiMedia entities are also subject to the 9th circuit's ruling. So to prove that these works can stay, someone would need to find the first instances of their publication abroad and/or in the U.S. If you check the Hirtle chart, I believe this work and the other Matisse paintings Lithoderm nominated would be categorized under "Works First Published Outside the U.S. by citizens of foreign nations" in the first "Special Cases" example ("1 July 1909 through 1978"). I would note that these deletion requests may seem a bit overwrought, but the nominator is not incorrect to point out the issue. Les Héritiers Matisse (the legal managers of Matisse's estate) still claim copyright over basically everything Matisse made and they're represented by the Artists Rights Society on U.S. copyright issues, so they clearly care about their copyright. Obviously they're probably just making broad claims to preserve (read: profit off) as much intellectual property as they can and ward off would-be re-users of the artworks, but they could definitely be right about any number of the works. I agree that Wikipedia would be better off if these images were kept. But without proof, we can't know for sure that these would pass legal muster as public domain in the (entire) United States. They can always be re-uploaded as non-free fair use images if need be. - 19h00s (talk) 22:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please add a free-use template to the article, the problem is that editors assumed these nominated paintings are in public domain so nobody has added the fair-use notice onto their individual articles. I asked the nominator to do so on their talk page. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Adding this as a comment since the legal analysis seems rather complex, but at least we have some history on this one: Bought in 1910 by a German collector and then on public display for three decades, is what the SLAM page says. Felix QW (talk) 09:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: keep as fair use for the Pastebin.com article. (non-admin closure) —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Pastebin.com logo.png (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Fastily (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
The graphic design would most likely not meet the minimum requirements for copyright protection and would therefore likely be free in the United States. Maybe you need to consider the minimum copyright protection in its country of origin. If it is in the UK or Australia, you need to use the target {{PD-USOnly}} and do not move it to Wikicommons. If the country of origin is Canada, use the template {{PD-textlogo}} instead of the original fair use label and move it to Wikicommons. Fumikas Sagisavas (talk) 02:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Status quo, keep as non-free. This is a complex design and IMO the page flip in the corner is sufficiently creative to push it over US TOO. -Fastily 09:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as non-free - I agree concur that the the page flip puts this above the threshold of originality. -- Whpq (talk) 01:12, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: keep. Whpq (talk) 01:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Derain CharingCrossBridge.png (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Stormie (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 02:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Please take a minute to perform WP:BEFORE checks prior to making nominations. The painting was first exhibited in 1907. - Eureka Lott 16:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep This one at least is clear: According to its National Gallery page, it was printed in a catalogue in 1928, undoubtably publication by any standard. Felix QW (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Keep -Fastily 09:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Derain - Portrait of a Man with a Newspaper.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Fentener van Vlissingen (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 02:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, this early-20th century painting is non-controversial and used on the artists' page. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)ad
- Comment This is also from Russian state museums, and was apparently purchased by the museum from a Russian collector in 1918 ([1]). Felix QW (talk) 09:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Keep -Fastily 09:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:1907, Vladimir Becic, Akt djevojke kod stola, ulje, Moderna galerija Zagreb.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Prosfilaes (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 02:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Commons' general opinion is here; publication can generally be assumed shortly after painting. Certainly when things like this leave copyright in their home country, I envision no problem uploading to Commons.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't necessarily agree with that, not for works of fine art anyway. Unlike commercial photographers, fine artists often create works and keep them for themselves for an indefinite period. Without any evidence either way, I don't believe that a work of fine art can be considered contemporarily published beyond significant doubt. Felix QW (talk) 07:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, the artist died in May, 1954, over 70 years ago. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: keep. Whpq (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:André Derain - Arlequin et Pierrot.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Andyzeo~enwiki (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. (And definitely not "GPL".) Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 02:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The painting is in the collection of the Musée de l'Orangerie, and their website says it was painted in 1924 and first reproduced in 1925. - Eureka Lott 16:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, per EurekaLott, in public domain. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Keep -Fastily 09:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Albert André - The Concert - Google Art Project.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Dcoetzee (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 03:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, it was painted in 1903 and is now used on the artists' page. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Acquired by the Phillips Collection, where it is still on display, in 1923 [2]. So if sale and exhibition are considered publication, then this should be counted published in 1923. Felix QW (talk) 07:28, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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Flor Contemplacion photos
[edit]- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: relisted on 2024 July 21. Fastily 05:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Flor Contemplacion after arrest.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)
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The result of the discussion was: keep. Whpq (talk) 01:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Garnelo-Cornelia.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by WQUlrich (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 08:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- No objections...although I'll be putting it back, along with some of his other paintings, when his works become PD in January. WQUlrich (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Transfer to Commons According to the description here, it was reproduced in La Femme dans la Nature, dans les Moeurs, dans la Legende, dans la Societe, Volume 3, by A Schalck de la Faverie (Maison d Edition Bong & Cie, Paris, c1908). As it is also PD in the EU, it should be transferred to Commons. Felix QW (talk) 09:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, per publication information provided just above by Felix QW. This is an 1892 painting. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Procedural close/not actionable. This has been open for over two weeks without any clear agreement on how to proceed and discussion appears to have fizzled out. To be clear, that's not to say that there aren't any issues here that do need addressing. And while it has been suggested that the file may be eligible for fair use, there's no consensus on which usages of the file should be retained and which usages should be removed. I'm closing this with no prejudice to renomination provided that a new nomination makes it clear what is being requested (e.g. deletion or convert to non-free where each specific image usage is named). Also, would like to take the opportunity to remind folks that open-ended questions about copyrights/files should be directed to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions first before jumping straight to a mass-nomination. Thanks, Fastily 02:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Goldfish Matisse.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Soulbust (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) grendel|khan 08:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, this is a major painting by Matisse used on six articles, especially its own article where it is the illustrative lead image and thus is irreplaceable as the article's illustration. Aside from that, this is an artwork, created in 1912, and is in public domain in the United States where Wikipedia is published. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please add a free-use template to the article, the problem is that editors assumed these nominated paintings are in public domain so nobody has added the fair-use notice onto their individual articles. I asked the nominator to do so on their talk page. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Adding this as a comment since the legal analysis seems rather complex, but at least we have some history on this one: Bought in 1912 by a Russian collector and then on public display from 1918, according to the Impressionist gallery. Felix QW (talk) 13:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Although converting the file's licensing to non-free is worth discussing, it's not a panacea given that the file is currently being used in six articles and on one user page. If converted to non-free, the file will need to be removed from the user page per WP:NFCC#9 and WP:UP#Non-free files. That leaves the non-free uses in the six articles to be assessed since it shouldn't be assumed that adding a rationale for each use autoatically means the use is policy compliant per WP:JUSTONE. The use in Goldfish (Matisse) seems OK per item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI, but it could be pretty hard to justify the other non-free uses. The non-free uses in "Fish", "Fish in culture" and "Goldfish" seem near impossible to justify and almost certainly would need to go. The use in "Henri Matisse and goldfish" might be justifiable, but there are other reperesentative free examples of the same subject matter being used which might mean this particular file is not needed. The same could be said for the use in Henri Matisse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Procedural close/not actionable. This has been open for over two weeks without any clear agreement on how to proceed and discussion appears to have fizzled out. To be clear, that's not to say that there aren't any issues here that do need addressing. And while it has been suggested that the file may be eligible for fair use, there's no consensus on which usages of the file should be retained and which usages should be removed. I'm closing this with no prejudice to renomination provided that a new nomination makes it clear what is being requested (e.g. deletion or convert to non-free where each specific image usage is named). Also, would like to take the opportunity to remind folks that open-ended questions about copyrights/files should be directed to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions first before jumping straight to a mass-nomination. Thanks, Fastily 02:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Henri Matisse - View of Notre Dame. Paris, quai Saint-Michel, spring 1914.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Olpl (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
No publication information provided. Just because this was painted before 1929, it doesn't mean that it was published then. (See Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) Also, MoMA claims copyright; it's unclear how valid that is. grendel|khan 08:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, this is used as the non-replaceable image at its own article, per above. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:43, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please add a free-use template to the article, the problem is that editors assumed these nominated paintings are in public domain so nobody has added the fair-use notice onto their individual articles. I asked the nominator to do so on their talk page. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Convert to non-free For this one, it would be difficult to justify contemporary publication, as one of the MoMA curators wrote [3]:
Unless it emerges that this exhibition happens to have been in the US and did not pass the required formalities, I do not think we can say that this painting is in the public domain in the US. Felix QW (talk) 07:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)In fact, this is a painting that he didn’t exhibit until 1949, 35 years after it was made.
- Comment: As I posted in the FFD thread right above this one, converting the file's licensing to non-free is worth discussing, but it also means the each of the individual eight uses of the file would need to be assessed. Since three of these uses are not in the article namespace, they fail WP:NFCC#9 and WP:UP#Non-free files and the file will need to be removed from those pages. Of the remaining five uses (Color field, Museum of Modern Art, View of Notre-Dame, List of works by Henri Matisse and Henri Matisse), there doesn't seem any way to justify non-free use in "Color Field" given the broad scope of the subject matter and item #6 of WP:NFC#UUI. The same applies to the use in "Museum of Modern Art" with the added problem of WP:NFG. The use in the list articles has issues with item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI, and WP:NFLISTS and WP:NFTABLES since non-free content is, in principle, pretty much never allowed to be used to illustrate individual entries of lists or tables. That leaves the non-free uses in "View of Notre Dame" and "Henri Matisee". Using an non-free image of a painting file for primary identifiction purposes in a stand-alone article about said painting is almost certainly policy compliant, but using the same image in an article about the artist who painted the painting runs into problems with item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI, particularly since there are multiple free equivalent images being used in the article as representative examples of the artist's work and style. Simply posting things such as "convert to non-free" or "Please add a [non-]free use template to the article" isn't really helpful when the file being discussed is being used on multiple pages because not each of those particular uses is automatically non-free content use compliant just because a non-free use rationale is added for them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed analysis, Marchjuly! I was merely commenting on the copyright status and usually defer to the expertise of others regarding the eligibility for non-free use. I seemed to me that non-free use on its own article page is almost certainly fine and that therefore deletion is not a plausible outcome. However, I also concur that it will likely have to be removed from the other pages that it is used for, per your detailed rationale above. Felix QW (talk) 11:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by Fastily (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT⚡ 10:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:America Movil1.svg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Aditreeslime (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
Fails WP:FU#Multiple_restrictions: Non-free SVG logo from Brands of the World. Wcam (talk) 13:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by Fastily (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT⚡ 10:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Insel Air logo.svg (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Benstown (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
Fails WP:FU#Multiple_restrictions: Non-free SVG logo from Brands of the World. Wcam (talk) 14:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the discussion was: Offending revision was replaced, closing as resolved/moot -Fastily 05:12, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:HazbinHotel-Alastor.png (delete | talk | history | links | logs) – uploaded by Kung Fu Man (notify | contribs | uploads | upload log).
Dubious copyright-related information. Author/creator was listed as Vivienne Medrano, which is the creator of the show (Hazbin Hotel). However, following the fandom URL link provided by the uploader as the image source, the creator is “John write”, not Vivienne Medrano. Also, the description of the non-free image usage was “Promotional still of the character Alastor
”, which seems odd, given it comes from Fandom and not the show nor the show creator. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Creator delete I'll freely admit this was a mistake on my part and I assumed it was a promotional still as per common for such subjects and not fan art. I do feel though the article in question needs a proper image, I may clean up a screenshot from the show for such purposes later.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)- Edit I've replaced the image per the above struck comment with a cleaned up screenshot, and adjusted the fair use rationale to reflect that as the source complete with a link to the video and a time stamp for additional verification. @WeatherWriter: I trust this will suffice now?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
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