User talk:SusunW/Archive 51

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Greetings,

I am looking for some copy edit help in the article Draft:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault especially section #Prominent_reactions if possible.

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 17:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, The article definitely looks better from a copy edit standpoint. Potentially a lot left to do. I'll keep picking over it and correcting things I see. --ARoseWolf 17:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks ARoseWolf for picking up where I left off. Real world craziness here. Good to see you! SusunW (talk) 17:53, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Susun (I always think of SUNSHINE when I see your name. lol), I'm just thrilled to help! You shine so bright I need my shades, chica! It's always good to see you too.--ARoseWolf 19:32, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks @SusunW and ARoseWolf:Sharing this nice kitten pic with both of you for being so nice and wonderful with greetings for Women's Day. For me one proof of earth is round is I always reach back for help to Talk:SusunW. :)

Reading another article Anti-monuments in Mexico inspired me to bring Minar e Pakistan incidence article by 8 March to main space. Initially I thought that you might have already scheduled this week, so I had sent good number of random copy edit requests to other users but finally substantial copy edit help came from both of you only.

Last month there was another discussion I participated @ Template:Did you know nominations/Women's World (Ottoman magazine) there too I realized earth is round and related biography article is written by SusunW. Idk DYK rules, may be SusunW can still help that stalled DYK discussion if possible.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 07:19, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Bookku. Happy Women's Day! Indeed, I agree with the circular patterns that allow us all to participate and grow in ever widening spheres. I am always amazed at how many articles circle through other articles I have worked on with editors I have collaborated with. Even before the internet, women stayed connected through such networks. I'll try to give it a look. Real world is crazy right now, but if I can grab some time, I will. SusunW (talk) 14:50, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello again @SusunW and ARoseWolf: requesting guidance and help in following two respects.

a) One user recently changed wording in the article from 'medico legal assessment' to 'forensic examination'. I am unaware if both terms mean same thing and if 'forensic examination' includes meaning of legal sanctity. Since Minar-e-Pakistan case is likely to remain poorly investigated case by police in midst of very heavy victim blaming , 'medico legal assessment' will remain to be key instrument which reliably seem to support victim's case. May be 'forensic examination' is also okay wording but would appreciate your confirmation.

b) Today I also added one more paragraph with ref from Salman Akram Raja a prominent supreme court advocate in Pakistan. Requesting copy edit help to the newly added paragraph too.

Thanks and warm regards Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, who did the legal assessment? Was it law enforcement, government agencies, medical examiners, like a coroner, or independent investigators/legal teams? --ARoseWolf 12:46, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

To be quite honest, I have never heard the term Medico-legal assessment. Looking at various sources, i.e. this and this it is an examination for a legal proceeding of a patient pre- and post- injury to assess changes and the degree that an incident impacted a victim. I.e. patient was able to do this before, now can only do this, and thus has sustained a loss which should be compensated. Looking for forensic medicine, I find this which says to me "clinical forensic examination" is probably the same, but I am no expert. I think it must include clinical as it is not the same as a "pathological forensic exam", which evaluates only the cause of death. Hope that helps. SusunW (talk) 14:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Interesting find, Susun. I had never heard of it either. So, looking at the two definitions it appears it could be very similar but a forensic examination is typically performed by a qualified medical professional. Would a medico legal assessment have to be performed by a medical professional? --ARoseWolf 16:45, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf and SusunW:

After ARoseWolf's query I googled more, Pakistan media seem to be using 'medico–legal' usually for physical examination of assault victims (including non sexual assaults) by authorized medical doctor. For digital and DNA exams they seem to be using term 'forensic examination', The difference is probably because laws use term 'medico–legal' for assault related physical examination.

My perception is though report is prepared by authorized medical doctor (in south Asia it's generally in Government hospitals) wording is 'medico–legal' is used since such doctor's report is as per legal process and acceptable to judiciary as reliable evidence.

On Nov. 2020 Express Tribune news report provides following information:

• The revised guidelines state that the medico-legal examination (MLE) of the survivor should only be undertaken on the judicial order under the Women Protection Act 2006 and after written consent obtained from the survivor or her parents/guardians if she is under 18-years of age. The examination also can only be done by an authorised women medical officer. (WMO).^[1]

About Minar e Pakistan case samaaenglish.tv news report says "The victim was brought to a hospital in Lahore on Thursday for medico-legal examination. The report came out on Friday and confirmed that the woman was tortured." Geo TV news report says "The Punjab government released Friday the medical examination report of the victim which confirmed details of the injuries she sustained after being assaulted".

Of the six news reports surveyed for Minar e Pakistan case by me 4 use word 'medico-legal' and two use wording just 'medical examination".

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 17:56, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Bookku and ARoseWolf:, sorry, had to take my husband to a doctor's appointment. He has an ear infection, so it would've been impossible for him to go alone as he can't hear. Antibiotics hopefully will do the trick. Anyway, I think you should stick with medico-legal examination, as this article from the World Health Organization, indicates that a forensic examination is only part of the process to create a MLE report which also includes examination of social services, police investigation, and legal systems. (page 1) SusunW (talk) 18:14, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Susun & Bookku, I agree. Medico-legal examination seems to be for a victim that is living and examined by a medical doctor in due course of a legal proceeding or at the direction of judicial precedence or law. A forensic examination would involve the examination of deceased individuals or crime scenes by medical and law enforcement professionals in due course of a criminal investigation. They seem to be somewhat similar but there is a difference. --ARoseWolf 18:55, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@ SusunW, In fact writing this also took me some time at times we can not help and that is very much understandable. We already do considerable contribution of time and energy many times sacrificing other liking , at least in case of real life priorities need to be attended on priority and there is no reason for saying sorry for giving time to your own family first.

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:15, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Greetings @ SusunW,

March 8, 2022 was fifth year of Aurat March. I had not particularly decided but inherent nature of the event being yearly article too got nature of yearly coverage. Since good number of academic sources are available now, I am looking forward to some slow but steady restructuring of the article over the coming year. Following challenges and scope seem available in restructuring and updating the article in future.

Article size as of now getting to 84 kb aprox.

Availability of good number of academic sources would help in a) academic understanding of the movement b) summarization of the article c) supporting/ converting/ replacing some of media citation with academic citations.

Suggestions needed for tentative structure of summarization while avoiding feeling of repetitiveness.

Whether to split the article when it goes beyond 100 kb (which likely to happen after coverage of academic sources)

• One split can be 'Aurat March Academic summary' and 'Aurat March yearly summary'
• Or 'Aurat March Academic summary' plus Aurat March first five years summary since first five years, impact wise likely to be more exclusivity then future women's day's Aurat March events.
• Just let Academic studies section grow then we revisit
• Write in sandbox a separate article from scratch with primacy to academic sources then revisit present structure of the present article. (This thought too strong in my mind)
• or any other summary and split suggestions / inputs
• Whether similar issue of summarizing yearly movement has been addresses in any other movement related article?

Your inputs will helpful in charting further updates in the article.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:18, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, there is a reason I don't work on living people and current events , as such articles tend to be unstable and require constant updating. I've been pondering your query all day. Were it me, I would probably base it mostly on scholarship and would definitely not do a year by year analysis. I would give a background section (why did it come about), what the impact and reaction has been, and what the annual themes have been. Structuring it in that way would stabilize the article so that it isn't constantly changing and would allow minimal maintenance annually to add new themes and issues. Perhaps ARoseWolf has other insight for you to weigh? SusunW (talk) 20:45, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful inputs this inspires me to write once more from scratch. With long enough legacy of feminist movement and related academic studies in Pakistan I was more of sure that academic studies will follow soon and those appeared but I could not keep the pace. In any case even most articles appeared in Pakistan's media were from scholarly activists, as elsewhere you said women in Gender studies and activists write less about each other is a problem in south Asia too.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:44, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Bookku I wish you luck. It's an important topic and I believe that academic treatment will keep it from being lost to history. You may still need the media reports if there are important activists to include, as the news typically carries those, while academics don't typically treat the people until long after the event. If you know of any women's/gender studies academics we should focus on, please add them (with sources) to our list. SusunW (talk) 13:09, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, there is a constant war inside me most of the time. I won't go into great detail about it but lets just say it is a battle between two worlds and how I see these worlds. Wikipedia is good for me because it helps balance my thoughts and the way I relate to the subjects I read about. For that reason I agree with Susun. Focus more on academic causes, effects and responses. Those are more easily sourced. Where you deviate from the scholarship aspect I would not delve too deep into it. Summarize where you can and if you can't do that then make sure to quote exactly and attribute it accordingly. Source everything. If there is any doubt what the source says or its purpose then I would throw it out or hold it until you can definitively say one way or another. Be prepared to explain what is written should it be questioned. And understand that questioning of what is written is part of the very fabric of the encyclopedia. It's the forge that helps produce brilliant gems. This is a very important topic and a good mixture of academic and media sources will give the topic a sure foundation by which future generations of editors may be able to expand upon as more information becomes available. Good luck and good work! --ARoseWolf 13:47, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red Apr 2022, Vol 8, Issue 4, Nos 214, 217, 226, 227, 228 Online events: New: Gender studies | French overseas territories New Contest (Apr/May/Jun): Translation contest Continuing: Climate (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman Other ways to participate: Encourage someone to become a WiR member this month by registering in the box at the top of our main page. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

— Maile (talk) 00:03, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your share in IWD! I show two who didn't make it, one from Russia and one from Ukraine. - Thank you for your clarification on DYK, - perhaps you could also find a way to understanding for Cosima Wagner? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

As I said in my edit summary on the Russia/Ukraine discussion WP is an enigma. We split hairs over inconsequential things and ignore bigger issues burying our heads in the sand. Bottom line, anyone can edit. Someone will add an infobox (as happened) and a heated discussion will follow. IMO, it's a helpful tool, but not necessary and clearly not a comprehensive summary of a life. I personally do not think it remotely helpful to insert bullet points of complex and/or controversial facets of a person's life in an infobox to appease people who are too lazy to read the article. Context is critical for understanding, thus if context is needed, omitting those things from an infobox, in essence, forces the person to actually read the article. In articles I write, I never list more than basic biographical info in the box, never their viewpoint, never their influences. However, I didn't write the MOS and as it is unlikely to be changed these arguments will be never-ending. SusunW (talk) 15:25, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

March songs

Thank you for support in the RfC! Listening to the charity concert mentioned here. I created the articles of the composer and the soprano. No time for boxes, but of course I add them to "my own". Why not offer two roads to the article, for different types of travellers? Why is that even a problem?? When will they ever learn? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:34, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I am glad to see that most are taking a logical approach, rather than a tossing everything one. Various paths help us each reach our goals without stepping on each other. Thank you for all you do to keep our world full of music and the amazing people that produce it. SusunW (talk) 16:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes! Now, you can also listen on YouTube, and more music, the piece by Anna Korsun begins after about one hour, and the voices call "Freiheit!" (freedom, instead of "Freude", joy). Music every day, pictured in songs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:32, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

St. Patrick's Day, more music and today's sunset --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

on Bach's birthday: the places where I sang his Dona nobis pacem --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I adore Bach. I just got internet back, but reading your note has dona nobis pacem running through my head. Bless you, it's been a frustrating day and peace was the perfect thing to read. SusunW (talk) 03:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The Prayer is on the Main page, finally + new flowers, and btw: the TFA is a young writer's first --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Happy that the RfC finally closed and we can just get on with it. Even happier that the prayer is finally on the front page. SusunW (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Bach's No. 1 today, - was made FA 26 March last year ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:13, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Sunday flowers and sounds, don't miss the extraordinary marriage of the beginnings of the theme of Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, BWV 1, and Prayer for Ukraine - here! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I see on your user page that you use JSTOR and I'd like to know more about your experience. By my calculations, a good 70 % of the main JSTOR content is now available for everyone at Internet Archive Scholar, with full text search provided e.g. at https://scholar.archive.org/ . The service is still in beta, but I've used it for some source-finding and it seems quite usable to me; I wonder whether that's just my experience. If you have a chance, the next time you'd be looking for a source on Google Scholar or JSTOR or similar, to perform the same search on IA scholar instead, I'd be curious to hear how it ends up. Thanks, Nemo 19:07, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Nemo Thanks for the link. I'm happy to try it. Will keep you posted. SusunW (talk) 19:35, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Nemo 21:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Nemo Okay, so I've tried it for about 5 days doing various searches working on the red list for women's/gender studies scholars. IMO, it doesn't duplicate the findings of Jstor, or hasn't on the names I have searched, i.e. a lot of non-English language women (which is a good thing). I have yet to figure out how to use all the buttons, as it sometimes gives me an error link and tells me it is a new program without all the kinks worked out, but generally if I ignore the links at the bottom and press the archive.org link on the right, I can access the article. Search engine has same limitations as others, hard to search for reviews of works other than works by a subject. Also once found, only some of the documents are searchable within the text. I truly appreciate your giving me this link, as it has been very helpful. SusunW (talk) 21:25, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Do you think it's appropriate to include an additional category (Category:Gender studies academics? Category:Women's studies academics?) in Carmen Diana Deere's biography? While she's associated with other academic departments, her work consistently crosses over into gender/women's studies. Thanks for taking a look. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Rosiestep Absolutely! I would go for Gender studies (as a quick google search shows that comes up most often in association with her name: "Her research focuses on gender", "she studies Gender & wealth", "Her research focuses on the factors that explain gender inequality"). The beauty of degrees in this field is that it is interdisciplinary and often looks at gender inequality in a variety of settings. SusunW (talk) 18:58, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, SusunW! It felt right, but I didn't want to overstep and then have people put "gender studies" under a microscope. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Greetings @ SusunW

Happened to write a bio of Mansiya V.P. a dancer who 'is' struggling through social ostracism for being secular to learn and practice Indian classical dance. I attempted to write Talk:Mansiya V.P.#DYK. Seeking your help in copy edit and guidance for improvement.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Bookku I've reformatted it a bit and given it some copyediting. As I'm tripping on ARoseWolf's fingers and she's working on it, I'll leave it for now, unless I am needed further. SusunW (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, helped with some copy editing. I did switch some wording around and removed redundant information. Feel free to revert if you feel like it removed something important. I have very little experience with DYK. Susun would definitely be the one to help there but the main statement of the hook looks good from where I am. Nope, Susun, I'm done. Do whatever you need to. Sorry to trip over you, I was just changing some things I saw that jumped out.--ARoseWolf 17:11, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

GenQuest and I used to have this template we placed at the top of a draft we worked together to let each other know when the draft was being worked. That's hard to do on a published article, I know. As far as my fingers go, they'll be just fine, trust me. . --ARoseWolf 17:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

The DYK hook looks fine to me. It's cited in the article. Yeah, I know that template, {{Template:In use}} but rarely remember to use it. SusunW (talk) 17:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Ha, we weren't that sophisticated, chica. We put a symbol or letter we had previously discussed using at the top. I called it a template but that was in a liberal sense. --ARoseWolf 17:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

LOL. SusunW (talk) 17:40, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I made a friend laugh, totally worth every word typed here. Thanks for making my day. Back to working on this monstrous project. lol --ARoseWolf 17:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW and ARoseWolf: I am seriously contemplating to use other foreign languages too next time onwards to express thanks to both of you since English language dictionary is too small to express thanks for all the support both of you always provide.

Also thanks for accessing 2006 BBC news which my browser did not allow initially to open the same being http. Now I have added archive link for the same.

As of now un til DYK process gets over, I have refrained myself from including politicians comments etc to not take any chances with any edit warriors may be I will expand on those aspects some time in future.

With Ottoman Women's magazine I have observed DYK process a little so I will try accordingly and get back to you again if any help needed in the same.

warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 18:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Susun, I think I'm ready to get back into writing articles. I would like to finish the article on Connie Redbird Pinkerman-Uri. What is the best approach to getting access to the most Wikipedia Library has to offer? Thank you for any guidance you can offer. --ARoseWolf 20:05, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf Yay! Go here and in the search bar type variations of her name. So for example "Connie Redbird" returns a link to a Taylor & Francis article, which you can't access, but you can go to the Resource Exchange and ask someone to provide for you. I get nothing for Pinkerman, or Pinkerman-Uri, but several for "Connie Uri". You have to click on the various results to determine if you can access them or not. If you can, great. If you can't, some helpful person will come along if you post in the Exchange. Holler if you need more help. SusunW (talk) 20:37, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 02:47, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, and extra praise for your patience! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:02, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

It takes a village, Gerda Arendt! Thanks. I am so glad that GRuban's work on her has finally made it to the front page. I think this was the hardest DYK (not from the standpoint of qualifying but the politics to get it actually on the front page) I've ever worked on and George did most of the heavy lifting. SusunW (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

yes - Wikipedia:Main Page history/2022 April 13: the TFA is hard to overlook, but there are also peace prayers, a soprano and a theatre manager, - if you don't find them try here --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:52, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

I want to say a big thank you for your suggestions for me! I do appreciate you and them! OhioGirl42986 (talk)OhioGirl42986 — Preceding undated comment added 17:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Susun, I hope that things are good with you. I am currently assessing this article at FAC, and it occurred to me that it may interest you. If not, feel free to ignore. I assume that you are still chewing your way through "the project"? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:30, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Gog the Mild You know me well. If I'm going to review, I want it to be a woman of substance . I am and am not still working on the project. Took April off to work on women's studies scholars, as it is a particular interest of mine. I am not sure how you got to the assessment page of Tendeloo. When I go to the talk it says "initiate the nomination" and I have absolutely no clue what that means or how to get there? SusunW (talk) 20:56, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Trade secret. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Corry Tendeloo/archive1. I am most of the way through and she comes across as a formidable woman. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

What an incredibly amazing woman. Thank you, Susun, for writing about her. I enjoyed reading her Song written here. --ARoseWolf 17:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf I could not even figure out why she didn't already have an article in any language. SMDH SusunW (talk) 17:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

That might be the most shocking out of all of it. It's good thing you were here, chica. --ARoseWolf 17:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Greetings @ SusunW,

In process of updating Women's rights related articles in Pakistan first I created an article National Women's Day (Pakistan) (The day commemorates (Pre Aurat March) 1983 generation of Pakistan feminist movement later supported by one of center left political dispensation). Happened to split that article in one more 1983 Women's March, Lahore based on one of option got during the DyK discussion. I am looking for some copy edit help in both the articles.

There is not much hurry from my side you can take your time because it is still long way to go as such. Let me ping @ARoseWolf: too as and when she finds time may help.

What all kind of details we come across while working on encyclopedic articles. I wish to put following addition in 1983 Women's March, Lahore to DyK if it gets approval at all.

"According to Anis Haroon when they held solidarity demonstration at Jinnah Mausoleum in Karachi against treatment given to women at Lahore March, while police did not beat them but molvis then declared to have annulled nikah (marriages) of the participants in the demonstrations."

The then Islamist dictator did couple of novel things which any previous Islamicate might not have tried. The some 30 plus years later news report informs that women were laughing while discussing the above quoted memories. But one needs to understand that, moderate interpretations would be moderate but in conservative interpretations it could have been a very serious blackmailing threat / havoc on demonstrating women.

In single Fatwa then politically motivated Islamist Clergy is indirectly seem declaring them heresy opening to threat of Takfiri violence. More over even if they would continue with their married life with their spouses, charge and punishment of adultery could have got attracted because marriages were declared annulled. Not only that could risk social ostracism from any conservative family members or the community asking them that they had to marry some one else before coming back to earlier husband. Only way out would have been other senior clergy coming to aid of these women rejecting conservative interpretations etc. All this explanation is not there in the news report but certainly to live with such indirect threat would not have been a joke for the women who would have been gone through that.

On side note, I am afraid do I always write too serious things, frankly with whom I can discuss what I find while searching for Wikipedia if not other Wikipedians. Btw requesting you to note, I do have one article Draft:Humor during the COVID-19 pandemic to find some change of subject and lighter mood by giving opportunity to work on it.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:59, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Bookku I've looked at National Women's Day. I'm confused by several things. 1) why is there a list of people who participated rather than the people who were honored? Were it me, I'd remove the participants in the table and replace it with the honorees. 2) The article says this is a national event, but then it talks of regional celebrations? Or maybe the event rotates through the provinces—one year it's in Islamabad, another year its in Karachi, and another in Lahore? Are the themes and honorees regional or national, because the way it's written it looks to be regional? If it's a rotating location, that needs to be clear and then I would cut "for the 2020 event held at Karachi". 3) the thing about the Sindh government is really confusing. Is it the person named Sindh who is the government minister, or a minister of the Government of the Sindh province? 4) If it is annual, why does it skip from 2013 to 2020? (On a completely other note, humor is always good to relieve the seriousness of simply living.) SusunW (talk) 14:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, I'm just going to respond here to keep the discussion in one place but what are you trying to convey with this statement exactly? 1983 Women's March, Lahore "Out of 26 negative stories published in four newspapers, 21 were the statements, indicating instead of playing a proactive role in highlighting the issue of women empowerment, the policy of the newspapers’ relied on statements." I'm trying to wrap my head around what it is fully saying. "21 were the statements" of what, by whom? --ARoseWolf 18:32, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW

In brief these ups and downs in political fortunes of Pakistani women's rights movement are sever. There are more aspects of activism of 1980s group still to be covered and I am not sure to cover under which title while writing at times I am also not able to make my mind.

I took on to write the separate article when I realized we can not accommodate 1980s group in Aurat March since neither of the event refers other event at least in the media. Media coverage of 1980s group is reduced over the years.

2) Wide oscillations in activism and political fortunes of Pakistani women's rights movement has been fact of life to a good extent. When Pakistan people party dispensations were in Government til around 2013 they had standing in Islamabad there after Muslim league govt. of Navaz Sharif seems to be there in Islamabad and political fortune reduced to regional level. (But still media reports it as national day) Then some times due to ideological in fighting at times due to sever backlash they splinter for while. Now new government is joint of ultra right center left and center right so at least for a year 1980s group unlikely to get political standing in Islamabad and since 2022 backlash was too sever as of now fortunes seem uncertain and dwindling.

1) I took on to write to table to understand myself what is being reported by the media and what is not being reported;I also feel to remove the table altogether.

3) It had to be Chief Minister of Sindh but I think we remove that table it self.

4) There are gaps in Media reporting and at times information is slow to come. For example I am working on an academic ref that informs 1980s group were marching annually in Lahore in between 1983 to 1988 I am also bit confused how to consolidate and make it better presentable.

Bookku There are always going to be gaps in coverage for the period unless and until someone digitizes material from 1950-1990 (pre-internet stuff unlikely to yet be in public domain.) Forming and splintering is the nature of activism, no matter where, no matter who. My questions are simply the kind of response I would give if I were doing a review of an article. You don't have to answer me, they are to give you an opportunity to look at the article through another lens, from the standpoint of someone who doesn't know the back story and is trying to understand. Take or leave the comments as they suit. I agree 100% with your analysis that these articles are the background for Aurat March and need to be told. SusunW (talk) 14:15, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf The quote in the study is

" .. share of non supportive statements was 21, out of 26 non supportive matter published in these newspapers, making it almost 80 percent. .. In Mashriq, 11 non

supportive statements were published, which is indicative of the agenda following and a biased gate-keeping. .. "

" .. On February 14, the second day of the WAF rally, Daily Jang published separate statements from Sahabzada Khursheed Gillani and Barakullah Khan. Sahabzada Khursheed demanded that strict legal action should be taken against the women who brought out the rally. He also used typical clichés to denigrate women activists, and Barakulah Khan asked women to seek God’s pardon for taking out

the rally. .."

One of previous study para says

" .. For this research, ‘supportive’ coverage in the case of women rights and Women Action Forum’s movement, the researcher looked for ‘ women have been given all rights by the Constitution’, ‘women should play their role in all fields’, ‘Hadd laws are anti-women’, ‘ women should not be the targets of biased laws’;

for ‘ non–supportive’, the researcher looked for ‘ Islam does not permit women to go out of house’, ‘ Women’s best role is in their homes’, ‘women organizations are spreading vulgarity’, ‘women rights organizations are anti-Islam’ and other prejudicial statements. "

The later paragraph indicates the news papers giving primacy to critical statements against women instead of women's issues

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 19:49, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Bookku, I'm going to think about ways to rewrite that paragraph. It's not rolling around right in my head or when I try to say it (not really anything new). I'll let you know what I come up with. --ARoseWolf 18:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf

Actuality I want to update related articles including this one with source of Khan, Ayesha either I am getting lost in reading the book myself by the time I think to start writing real life is distracting me . BTW that too has some media coverage related details. Please feel free to add trim or rewrite Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 18:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Khan, Ayesha. The Women's Movement in Pakistan: Activism, Islam and Democracy. United Kingdom, Bloomsbury Publishing, 2018.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 18:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@ SusunW One issue I came across about "National Women's Day India". By 1975 8th March was becoming common internationally still then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi went on to inaugurate National Women's Day for India on February 16, 1975 but day was selected as per Indian calendar. Most probably as part of indigenization or connect to Indian culture.

(On side note funnily enough during February 16, 1975 inaugural welcome address Delhi's mayor told audience that day was selected since Indira Gandhi's parents married on that day as per Indian calendar, it's difficult to say that was flattery or potshot, later Gandhi explains importance of the day in Indian calendar in her speech that day)

Prime Minister Gandhi's later political career was of political ups and down and I am still in search whether the day was celebrated as per Indian calendar in later years.

Meanwhile we can see media reports of some low key celebration of National Women's Day India every year on 13 Feb; why and when shifted to 13 Feb is still matter of search.

In some countries National Women's Days seem to be celebrated separately to have a local connect same time fulfilling objective of deflecting / responding nationalistic or right wing criticism that feminism and women's movement are western concepts by displaying some local connect.

I added 1975 Indian National Women's Day to International Women's Year since there is clear connect.

I would be okay to merge Pakistan's National Women's Day in some other article like Feminism in Pakistan if you also think so but for above cited reason of local connect day is likely to be celebrated in future too even though low key some times media covering it some times not covering low key annual events depending on journalists own interest and news value of people attending such events.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Bookku I think there are sufficient sources for it to be a standalone article. Just remember that this is an international encyclopedia and the background information you state above needs to be included for context for those who don't know it. World-wide coverage of women's events tends to be pretty dismal and dependent on journalists own interests and the interest of the public in following popular cult figures. SusunW (talk) 14:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)