Talk:Tengri/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Are there modern movements and systems of belief that style themselves (Neo-)Tengriism, along the lines of Neo-Paganism? Just curious. :J //Big Adamsky 10:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Example of modern or Neo-Tengriism: Temple of Tengri. --Samdilya (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you can call this Neo-Tengriism: Tengerism. Burkhanism was also a tengristic movement of Altay-Turks and Oirats in the time 1904-1930. Today some nationalist Yakuts are following a new Version of Tengriism too. There call it Ayy. Actually Tengriism is not really dead. The Belief of most mongol's today is a combination between Tengriism ( mongol's call it Tengerism ) and Lamaism. The sumerian God named TINGIR, was a Sun god. Tengri/Tenger is a Sky god ( or the mighty spirit of sky ). I don't belief that Tengri had something to do with the sumerian TINGIR or with the egyptian RA ( Tangra: completly wrong stuff ! ). I am working on it.. in the german Wikipedia. de:Benutzer:Erdal/Tengrismus ---Erdal 04:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think there must be some link between the Sumerians and these guys because the name of a God in religion has too much importance and is chosen for a specific reason and cannot simply be a coincidence.

Both are Tenri, historians much find the link here, currently not enough studies go into this very important area.

---Johnstevens5

Be aware of Dbachmann's massive edits.--Tirgil34 (talk) 23:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The article gives two meanings or explanations of the origin of Tengri:

1. The name "Tengri"-(Tana-Gra) means "Ruler, Master of the Land".
2. It derives from "Tan" or "Teng" which literally means sky and "ger", which is the mongolian name for the Central Asian nomadic tent.

They cannot be both right. --Lambiam^Talk 23:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Tengri means Sky in old turkic language and Tenger means sky in mongolian language. But the meaning of ("holy") Tengri turned to god after a unknown time. In the latest books of historians, you can see a translation of the word Tengri like this: Sky(-god) !

And Tana-Gra or Tan-Nak-Ra is an old lie of bulgarian scientist; they tried to find a link between the old bulgars and the egyptians or thrakians, and they tried to keep the old bulgarian history non-turkic. But in real, the name of the old bulgarian god TANGRA is simply an another version of TENGRI. Look here in page 78 under Tengri (Tengeri, Tangra, Tangri). greetings ---Erdal 19:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

If no one objects, I will remove Tan-gra explanation and replace it with the other one for the origin of the word. Tengri is used in almost all altaic languages, see discussion in tenrikyo, and linking it to indo-european languages just because of pronouciation similarities isn't scientific.--141.211.201.130 (talk) 04:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In Altai Iranian god.--Chuvash Tatarstani (talk) 04:33, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Nearly all statements in this article are unsupported by either facts or citations or arguments. The interpretative material is mostly fantasy. The etymological speculations are preposterous. No philological or historical evidence is submitted. Can someone write a proper article on this (very interesting) subject? (88.224.69.38 14:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC))

I agree, for instance: "Worship of Sky Father/Father Heaven and Mother Earth is almost universal among Turks and Mongols, and is found in North America as well." I am currently living in Turkey, and I have never met a Turk who worships Sky Father/Father Heaven...I am going to delete this sentence.

194.27.149.175 09:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Veryshuai

I've done it for you and removed all the nonsensical ethymological speculations. The article still needs a lot of work, though, especially the "Turkic Version" has little to do with what I've found elsewhere about the topic. The German language article is very nice and well sourced. Maybe I can talk its main author into translating it into english. --Latebird 09:49, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

First of all, Tengri does not mean sky in old Turkic. Sky is "gök". The most probable meaning of Tengri comes from Talat Tekin. According to Talat Tekin, the root word of Täŋri (Tengri) was Täg- (Teg-) meaning "Turn around" or "Wrap around" or "to encircle" or "to surround". A Grammar of Orkhon TurkicAncalimonungol (talk) 14:29, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

If someone shows me ONE historical source-chronicle or anything which says the Bulgars believed in Tengri i will accept that i'm not right.

You mean aside from the fact (ruling-class) Bulgars started out as Tengri-worshipping Huns and named a mountain in Bulgaria after him? I can't read it without g. translate, but there is a Bulgarian-language article on the subject you can look at. -LlywelynII (talk) 09:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Ancient Bulgars believed in Tangra: University of Saskatchewan, Andrei Vinogradov, Ak Jang in the context of Altai Religous Tradidtion, 2003, p.78 -Tirgil34 (talk) 14:04, 9 March 2012 (CET)

"The Bulgars named a large mountain in the Rila mountain range after Tangra, although it was renamed in the 15th century to Musala ("Mountain of Allah") by the Ottoman Turks."

Nevermind the divination of Tengri among the Bulgars, there is no written source, nor a legend, claiming that the earlier name of Musala peak in Rila was Tengri. In fact, it is a hypothesis with no evidence, raised by some contemporary Bulgarian nationalists. The name of Musala peak is given most probably bu the Yuruks - Turkish-speaking mountain nomads, that roamed and inhabited together with their cattle some mountains in the Balkans after the Ottoman conquest. At that time, Yuruks were Muslims as well as the Ottoman Turks. 83.143.144.239 (talk) 07:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

That pdf file does not provide any actual evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jotaro97 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

The "Mongol version" section states, "Geser is a great hero of Tengriism and he is a reincarnation of a sky spirit sent to earth to help serve people as a shaman." There used to be a separate article for Geser, but it has been merged with Epic of King Gesar. The latter article, while it states that this epic has currency throughout Central Asia, describes a text of Tibetan Buddhism, not Tengriism. The article contains no reference to Tengri, Tengriism, or even shamanism. Is Tengri actually mentioned in this epic? Or is there, perhaps, a Tengriist version of this epic? If either is true, it would be nice if the Epic of King Gesar article mentioned it. If not, then the reference to Geser in the Tengri article should probably be deleted. -- Takwish | Talk 20:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The image in the infobox was now removed twice without valid arguments. According to the uploader, this is an artistic representation of the article subject. If you have information and sources indicating otherwise, please explain them here. Do NOT remove it again before there is a consensus to do so. Thanks for your cooperation. --Latebird (talk) 14:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

No image can be attributed to Tangri other than the blue sky. The box has Tangri's name on the top and the picture shows absolutely ugly creature that looks like Budda shaped creature with 3 eyes, and pig's nose. Only blue sky may serve as visual symbol of Tengri. I believe in Tengri and I find this picture as totally disrespectful, maybe intentional vandalism. What if one puts some devils picture on a page of some Abramic Prophet? It would be totally disrespectful. The same thing is happening here. Tangri's commonly accepted visual image is blue sky, it has nothing to do with that agly picture. Also the box shows Bai-Ulgen and Erlik as children of Tenri. If you follow that the Bai-Ulgen link, Bay Ulgen page says "This article does not cite any references or sources." Ulgen is a word translating into Enlish simply as - Great. Erlik literally means Earth, and it can't be Tangri's son either. Tangri is not like human, it does not have children. Listing Tangri's illegal children is missleading and wrong. That has to be removed also. Listing that Budda-Swine picture under Gok Tengri, and giving Tangri illegal children is nothing other than deliberate misrepresentation.

That is your personal opinion, but someone's personal opinion is not supposed to matter on wp. Besides, it sometimes happens that there are different interpretations of certain religious topics (say, the messiah). Your interpretion, even if you personally believe it to be the only true one, does not need to be the only one relevant for wp.

That said, I think the image looks more like some Mahakala or Begtse (not sure whether Mahakala can ride or Begtse can be blue, though). I.e. I don't think the image is properly sourced, and I am not convinced it really shows subject of this article. Yaan (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

P.S. seems the image actually shows Shri Devi, a.k.a. Ökin tngri in Mongolian. I still think this is not a good illustration for the subject of the article, just like Dionysos, god of wine, might not always be a good illustration for an article about god. Yaan (talk) 15:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Shri Devi is the wrathful side of Tara and has nothing to do with Shamanism. A similar phenomenon was also recently corrected in Italian Wikipedia. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

The same mistake has been found in Ukrainian Wikipedia. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. Agreed, personal opinion should not matter on wp. The fact is the image box should show the most commonly accepted image representing Tengri. It is commonly known that such image is a blue sky. In fact "Mahakala" like picture of Tangri looks like someone's personal opinion. "Ulgen" means "Great" and this is not a personal opinion either. Please just look below under the Turkic Version title and you can see the term "Tengri Ulgen" used to reference the God itself, not God's child. It is also fact that the word "Erlik" in Turkic languages means Earth. In order to list Erlik (Earth) as a child of Tengri in the given area one has to have not only valid references, but one has to prove that it is commonly accepted doctrine within Tangriism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forte3 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I had left those two names in, because their respective articles say they were "created" by tengri. This may or may not mean that they are its children, so I'll accept your explanation that they're not. But please remember that when you remove information from Wikipedia, you have to explain your reasons. For simple stuff, the edit summary may be enough, but often the talk page is the better choice.

There's also a small technical issue: If you remove something from an infobox (or other template), please don't remove the whole line, but only the value. The variable name including the equal sign should remain intact, or it will become very hard for other editors to figure out what variables the template accepts. --Latebird (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's value to mention Qilian 祁连 in Qilian Mountains also originated from the Xiangnu term.--刻意(Kèyì) 19:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Where are the information about Tengriist practice today gone? AFAIR, there are some Tengriist revival movements in Central Asia, and also, much of Tengriist religion became a part of the local Shamanism. As for the merger itself - may it be, however I think that it's better to keep two separate articles, even if one of them remains a stub. I know that the subject isn't very popular among Europeans or Americans, as the Tengriist culture is quite remote and unknown to the masses. It's so interesting, however, that it deserves its place in Wikipedia. Greetings, Critto (talk) 15:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It isn't a question of how popular a subject is, it is a question of how much referenced material we have. At the moment, we clearly do not have the necessary material for a "Tengriism" article separate from what is already covered in this article. If you can add a substantial amount of material, this situation may well change.

I would be interested in "Tengriism revival", but again, we need good sources for that. Also, much of what is called "Tengriism" in a wider sense appears to be really Turkic mythology generically. --dab (𒁳) 16:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I understand, dab. I am looking for reliable materials on Tengriism, however this is quite hard on the Net. I will ask some of my friends who are ethnologists, maybe some of them will know about the Tengriist customs and have any reliable, academic sources. Greetings Critto (talk) 18:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It appears that the flak this article has been getting is due to "Tengriism" having been discovered by ethnic nationalists in Central Asia. As always when ethnic nationalism is involved, things are going to get bizarre, so this will be one to watch in the future. Obviously, the ethnic nationalist revival is going to be a topic in its own right, but one we cannot research ourselves, so we will need to wait for the ethnographical/politological literature to catch up with it. So far, the Tengriism page has got the (completely unreferenced) claim that:

There is a Tengrist society in Bishkek, which officially claims almost 500,000 followers and an international scientific center of Tengrist studies. Both institutions are run by Dastan Sarygulov, the main theorist of Tengrism in Kyrgyzstan and a member of the Parliament. Publications committed to the subject of Tengrism are more and more frequently published in scientific journals of human sciences in Kyrgyzstan as well as in Kazakhstan. The partisans of this movement endeavor to influence the political circles, and have in fact succeeded in spreading their concepts into the governing bodies. Kazakhstan’s President Nursultan Nazarbayev and even more frequently former Kyrgyz president Askar Akayev have several times mentioned that Tengrism as the national and “natural” religion of the Turkic peoples.

so, everything exactly as you would expect it. They have similar goings-on in the Ukraine, I think, and of course the original template is the Germanic mysticism in Germany in the early 1900s.

Unreferenced as it is, the above paragraph may be a clue for further research by providing the name of Dastan Sarygulov who is apparently the epicenter of this phenomenon. --dab (𒁳) 10:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Link title== Merge with Tengri ==

I propose we merge the article Tngri with this one. The terms are synonymous, the modern word "Tenger" is written "Tngri" in Mongolian script. --chinneeb-talk 07:39, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone should edit the article so that it informs the reader that the word Tenger is also found in Hungarian meaning sea. Another thing worth noting is that the root "Ten" in Hungarian represents knowledge and learning. Ex. Tan-ito (teacher) Tan-ul (learns), tan-targy (lesson), etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tantargy (talk • contribs) 09:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

It's a word of Turkic origin in Hungarian alright, but an etymologically different one: e.g. modern Turkish deniz, Tatar diŋez, which continue to likewise mean 'sea'. If also Tengri ever got into Hungarian, it does not seem to have left known traces. (The Hungarian words for 'sky', ég, and 'heaven', menny, are both native Finno-Ugric.) --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 13:21, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no sign of Tengri on the wikipedia page. It should a simple plus sign inside a Circle. (actually it's not really a plus sign despite looking exactly like a plus sign, but two arrow heads pointing each other)Ancalimonungol (talk) 14:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Could Tengri be a name the Mongolian borrowed from the Chinese language? In modern Chinese it is Tian- Ri (sky-sun, or sky-day). 86.178.171.132 (talk) 02:30, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

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"As Gök Tanrı, he was the father of the sun (Koyash)" should be "As Gök Tanrı, he is the father of the sun (Koyash)" because death has no effect if someone is your father or son. even when someone dies one is the father and the other is the son. the interaction may not be as before but one is the father and one is the son 66.74.176.59 (talk) 04:52, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: per WT:MOS discussion. Stickee (talk) 04:15, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

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Remove the line "Tangaroa, a Maori god" from See also. The Tengri pantheon has no relation to the Maori pantheon. The line was added by a Turkish nationalist who is known for pushing kemelism.142.105.159.60 (talk) 19:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  20:04, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Tangaroa is a god in the Maori pantheon. It has no relevance to Tengri whatsoever. Are there any objections to removing the mention of Tangaroa from See Also?142.105.159.60 (talk) 19:30, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

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Remove the line "Tangaroa, a Maori god" from See also. The Tengri pantheon has no relation to the Maori pantheon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.105.159.60 (talk) 19:11, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Terra (T) @ 19:43, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

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Remove from see also: "Dingir, a Sumerian word (meaning deity) that may have a similar etymology[20]" per OR and FRINGE.

Turkish nationalists are constantly making (debunked) additions to try to connect the Sumerian Language with Tuskish, see Talk:Sumerian_language for more examples. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: More justification needed for removal of cited material. – Train2104 (t • c) 17:04, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

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Remove from "See Also": "Dingir, a Sumerian word (meaning deity) that may have a similar etymology[21]"

Basis: WP:FRINGE The Sumerian language is in no way related to Turkic language. The source used to support this statement is from 1928 and is thus completely obsolete. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now: The source cited is actually from 1958, based on earlier research going back to 1928. Either way, age alone does not make a source non-reliable. If you have a source that characterized the Sumerian-Turkic connection as fringe research, then please post it. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:50, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

You're asking me to prove a negative. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 16:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm asking you to provide some academic disputation of a Sumerian-Turkic connection. If I wanted to, say, edit an article to say that the continents move through oceanic crust over time, disputing that wouldn't be proving a negative. All you'd have to do is refer to the voluminous literature on plate tectonics. Similarly, if you think the theory of Sumerian-Turkic linguistic connection is a fringe theory, then there should be some linguist somewhere who has disputed that in something. Somebody obviously published the theory that the connection exists, after all. That's the type of reference this requires. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:22, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I have issued a reply on the noticeboard, seeing as how the dispute has spilled over to the Dingir page now. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Reply at same place but to keep this up to date: The proposed references support your requested change but I'm waiting for further input. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

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Never have I heard or read of such a thing as the core beings in Tengrism being the Heavenly-Father and the Earth Mother. Tengrism centers on the sky god Tengri, the God of Heaven, aka Göktengri or Göktanrı. 786wave (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The article on Tengrism says so too. 786wave (talk) 17:55, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it seems kind of strange. Also the Khans justified their rule by heaven alone, not earth. Humans are supposed to have emerged between heaven and earth, but earth was usually not a deity. (at least I never heared or read anything about that) An exception might be Erlik (Yer-lik?), but he is clearly not considered a "supreme being" comparable to Tengri.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Then you need to read Turkic inscriptions more carefully because Yagiz Yer (or Etugen) is clearly a deity. From the Bilge Khagan Inscription, "With the blessing of Tengri above and the Earth below". From Uyghur El Etmish Bilge Khagan's inscription, "Tengri and the Earth punished my housemaids, servants and people." From the Bombogor inscription, "I worshipped (Tengri) above and earth below." Tengri is doubtlessly the supreme god, but that does not mean he's the only god. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.242.64 (talk) 05:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Just because it is alive, doesn't mean it is a deity in equal. Everything is considered alive in Tengrism, as far as I know, dualism entered later the stage of Tengrism. But maybe I am mistaken.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:37, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

What..? Isn't Tengriism a nature worshipping religion? Also, there are definitely other tngri; no one's saying there's not. Prof. Pedantic (talk) 22:58, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Tengrism is a term to denote any Turkic/Mongolic religious worldview around theworship of tengri, a term originally meaning "the blue sky" (Kök Tengri). As far as I know, we don't know how many other spirits and deities were actually worshiped. Further, people might adhere to the Turkic/Mongolian Tengri-Cosmology, but don't worship all spirits. For example, Erlik Khan is a famous deity/spirit, yet not all worship him (as far as I know, some even consider it forbidden and persecuted whose who worshipped Erlik). This is probably the reason why some scholars make a distinction between Tengrism and Tuko/Mongolian Shamanism. Yet, in literature, when we read about Tengrism, it usually entails shamanism. Despite that, not all spirits/deities are necessary subject to worship.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)