I couldn't help but notice this picture here is from the Post-Crisis version of Earth-96. Wouldn't that be the Superman Returns timeline? I'm not saying we shouldn't have this page, because clearly the Pre-Crisis version of the multiverse was in a different timeline and all of the multiple Earths were different than their final form (like for example on Earth-89, Joker is still alive in Pre-Crisis unlike on the Batman movie where he is dead). But in this case, this image was clearly from the end of part five, which would have been the new timeline, which should be Superman Returns.
--Noah Tall (talk) 19:27, April 9, 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah this universe is similar to Superman Returns but when the multiverse was reborn something clearly changed that caused him to not changed the background of his symbol to black, but that's no guarantee that the new history is the exact same as Superman Returns. --1137a (talk) 20:21, April 9, 2020 (UTC)
That is definitely how I understood it. As I said, we know Joker died in the 1989 Batman film, but this was different in the Pre-Crisis version of that universe. I am pretty sure that it was the writer's way of saying that Earth-89 was the Pre-Crisis version of the Burtonverse. In other words, same Earth, different timeline. So even though the Joker lived in the Pre-Crisis timeline, he clearly must have died in the Post-Crisis timeline.
The writer's said that they didn't want to trample on the work that other showrunners worked on, and if Earth-167 was the same version of the Smallville Universe, then that would have pissed off a lot of Smallville fans, who would feel that the whole point of the show was him becoming Superman, but then this Crisis comes along and says he quit. But we can now, we can't say for sure, because who's to say that in the Post-Crisis version of Earth-167 or whatever it would be called; that he didn't just continue being Superman?
What I'm saying is, this one scene, shown here at the end, the rest of the articles are fine, but this one scene here, is wrong. It should be considered the Superman Returns universe. They said he was the Superman Returns Superman after all. Also the Jason Todd and Hank Hall of Earth-9 from Crisis Part One should also have there own pages, because they were from the old timeline as well, and they were destroyed. That's all I can think of off the top of my head but there may be others. Oh yeah, the Lucifer of Earth-666, because he was shown Pre-Crisis. (and I haven't checked so for all I know there already is a page for that) Anyway let me know whatcha guys think.
--Noah Tall (talk) 20:56, April 9, 2020 (UTC)
- So, to get my head around it, Your saying that the pre-crisis version comes first (obviously), but then the post-crisis versions of all the characters we saw (Brandon Routh, Tom Welling, Tom Ellis etc.) were transformed into the versions of themselves thaat people actually recognise from their respective TV shows/movies? (As a comparison, in Marvel, Earth-TRN566 was basically the main universe before it got destroyed and the new universe after that became Earth-616 (I think) is that what you're basically trying to say here for the live action DC shows?) --1137a (talk) 21:46, April 9, 2020 (UTC)
Okay, so I think I understand your question, and the answer is yes...sort of. From our perspective, the "real" Smallville Universe came first, but from an in-multiverse perspective it would have been a part of the multiverse that Spectre/Oliver Queen created in the reboot. The Pre-Crisis had to be an alternate timeline version of the Smallville Universe, because it was destroyed, and the writers even said that they weren't going to trample over other showrunner's works. When it was rebooted, I doubt they were like "Oh wow, our Earth just got destroyed...but that's okay...because it's back again..." Hell no, if they didn't know about it on Earth-Prime then they wouldn't have remembered that in any other Earth either.
But Smallville isn't the issue here, after all, we have it done the way it should be, with the Earth-167 characters separated from the Smallville Universe characters, as they should be, since they are they are different timelines. It's the Brandon Routh Superman that is an issue. Because the version of him seen in Part Five would have had to have been the actual canon Superman Returns version of him, because it was shown Post-Crisis.
--Noah Tall (talk) 15:00, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
- Sounds like speculation. Pages should avoid this. Karl Meing (talk) 15:21, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
No it isn't speculation. Even if we dismissed the notion that the Post-Crisis Earth-96 and Superman Returns Universe are one and the same, we still should have a separate page. Here's what I'm saying, the character that appeared in part five should be either Kal-El (Superman Returns) or Kal-El (Arrowverse: Earth-96) (Post-Crisis). Because there's no question they are different timelines. The original Earth-96's Superman was killed by Luthor when he was erased from existence.
--Noah Tall (talk) 15:28, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
- Kal-El (Superman Returns) is speculation. Different timelines don't seem to be an argument on this wiki. There are many various cases like Futures End. Karl Meing (talk) 15:43, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
Forget about Superman Returns. The point is, the Pre-Crisis Earth-96 and the Post-Crisis Earth-96 are different Earths. Sure, they have different timelines as well, but that's not the point anyway, and I apologize for ever mentioning it and making a distinction...I don't know why I did that. But forget about it. The point is they are separate Earths.
EDIT: Here's a good example for you, we are treating the Pre-Crisis Earth-2 and the Post-Crisis Earth-2 as two different Earths, so why should this be any different?
--Noah Tall (talk) 15:57, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
- Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-38 and Earth-Black Lightning (Earth-19 maybe too?) merged into Earth-Prime. Earth-Stargirl replaced the place of Earth-2. We don't know about merging Earths like 96. It could be reborn like Earth-167, but with a different timeline. Better to have one page with a note, because we don't know how it works. Karl Meing (talk) 16:48, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
Reborn? Yes...all of the Earths were reborn, but that doesn't make them the same Earth. Not exactly anyway. I'd say they are more or less, but still separate. We know for a fact, that the Earth-96 shown in Part Five was a different Earth-96 then was shown in Part Three, because that Earth's Superman had died. In the new Earth-96, he's alive, therefore, unless we are to assume that that was not supposed to be in the present, but rather a flashback, then we must conclude that it's not the same Earth-96. The writers say it was the Superman Returns universe, I don't see why we can't just say that. We wouldn't have to make another page, just change the image on this page, and change the Part Five page's character section to the Superman Returns Superman. Seems perfectly logical to me. More than just some sound theory in my eyes. You say that we don't know how it works, but I don't understand what you mean. You say that the Earth-2 was replaced by the Stargirl universe, and all this stuff I know already. It's the same concept, if those are considered new versions of older Earths, then the same applies for Earth-96.
Also, you are not actually completely right about Earths merging together like the did in this Crisis. In the TV show, all of the old Earths were destroyed, and Oliver made new ones. The old ones are were gone, then the new ones were made. So in other words, nothing merged. Plus saying Earth-2 and 3 was part of the merge wasn't ever even remotely suggested. Earth-Prime had the appearance of a combination of Earth-1, Earth-38 and Black Lightning's Earth. There was no resemblance to Earth-2 or Earth-3 implied at all. But even if there's a resemblance, it wasn't because they merged, it's because they just were parallel. Every Earth from the Pre-Crisis multiverse was wiped out.
--Noah Tall (talk) 17:32, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, you don't understand what I'm talking about. Where writers say what the Post-Crisis Earth-96 is a Superman Returns Universe? About merging Earth-2, look closely at the Cisco's board in episode «Marathon» (or stills). Earth-3 merged because Jay Garrick is now on Earth-Prime (see interview). Karl Meing (talk) 18:02, April 10, 2020 (UTC)
I understood you perfectly. And thank you for the clarification about Jay Garrick. There are a number of sources that state that he's the same Superman from Superman Returns. here is just one of many that I just happened to find doing a Google Search, but even that doesn't prove that the Earth-96 shown in Part Five is the Superman Returns universe, in order to understand that, you have to do further research, like in this article, which mentions that the Smallville universe was indeed rebooted. There are several other articles that are similar to this, one I recall, but I wasn't able to find, was when Guggenheim (I believe it was) said that he "had to put his toys back." In other words, he wasn't allowed, either by DC or by his own principles, to alter anything from other portions of the franchises. In other words, destroying Earths and leaving them gone. There are other hints as well, we know that Earth-89 is different from the Burtonverse, because Joker is alive in that version. And yes, to be fair, he could be a usurper or imitator or he might have came back to life somehow. But, it's also possible he might have never died, because that was the Pre-Crisis continuity. You might say that's just wild speculation, but is it really? Guggenhiem said that the Smallville universe, wasn't destroyed, and he said it was the same for other Earths as well. So what else could that mean? We know that every Earth in the multiverse was destroyed in the Crisis crossover. So that must mean, that the real Smallville universe is from the Post-Crisis multiverse. Same with Burtonverse, the Titans and Doom Patrol series universes and every other series and film universes for that matter. Otherwise, he wouldn't be "putting his toys back" for someone else to play with later if they wanted to. That make sense now?