Talk:Medjugorje/Archive 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. A 7–5 split on the "vote" is not a convincing margin when the oppose votes are supported by sources demonstrating that the current spelling is a common one, and even comments in support admit that the name can be spelled both ways. Arguments along the lines of "it is also written the other way" are stronger when the other way is the common way. I do recommend that, in the interests of balance and in the spirit of Wikipedia:Article titles#Treatment of alternative names, the other way remains listed in the prime position in the lead and infobox so that each spelling is given due prominence at the start of the article. DrKiernan (talk) 20:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Medjugorje → Međugorje –

• I was told in my user talk page that there is dispute somewhere about this move. Relisted again as the discussion still continues. —Darkwind (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Relisted. BDD (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply
• Support - There is no hint on the Talk of the article of any "dispute", only a unilateral undiscussed move (to the old "dj" spelling) in August 2011. The letter đ has been used for digraph "dj" since 1880. Yes some of the religious sources in the article related to the vision use the pre-1880 spelling, but I have now added Lonely Planet 2010 and Frommers 2009 which spell Bosnian towns the way en.wp does... accurately. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Reply
• Support; more accurate spelling. bobrayner (talk) 00:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose. "dj" for "đ" is an acceptable, widely used, accurate, and current variant for that phoneme in Serbo-Croatian. Serbo-Croatian phoneme in English. (Clarification suggested on my talkpage by In ictu oculi.) Many sources that otherwise employ diacritics often do not use "đ", both in general (see here), and specifically with Medjugorje (see here) (Medjugorje, but Dragićević, Čolo, etc.). When both variants are acceptable, but one is vastly more widely used in English-language sources, WP policy says follow the sources. Dohn joe (talk) 05:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Dohn Joe, sorry but you should really have discussed this on the Talk page before your move, you must have known that this was a controversial move. Why didn't you put in a RM?

As for WP policy WP:RS does not say "follow the sources," since if we did that we'd be mindlessly replicating US Today and the Daily Mirror, WP:RS says "follow the best such sources", according to WP:RS.

I cannot open your link to The Columbia Guide to the Literatures of Eastern Europe Since 1945. What is it supposed to prove? (Why would Međugorje even be mentioned in such a book?) In ictu oculi (talk) 14:22, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

In ictu - perhaps an RM would have been a good idea, but I did not think it would be that controversial. As I said in my original edit summary, the sources used in the article widely (perhaps universally? I don't recall) used "Medjugorje". And the fact that 15 months and dozens of edits from new and experienced editors went by without objection would seem to show that it at least was not unreasonable for me to think so.

As for WP policy, I was thinking of WP:AT, which says "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage". The dominant English-language usage is clearly "Medjugorje".

Sorry you couldn't open the link - try searching for it in Google Books. The quote is "With literatures in languages that employ the Latin alphabet, names and titles of works are given as they appear in the original; that is, all diacritics are faithfully preserved, with the exception of the Serbo-Croatian "đ", which I transliterate as "dj"". The point being that even reliable sources that otherwise use diacritics do not always do so with "đ" - it gets special treatment.

For more reliable sources that use "Medjugorje" while using other diacritics, see:

• Research in the Social Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 10, p.155
• MEDJUGORJE'S EFFECT'S: A HISTORY OF LOCAL, STATE AND CHURCH RESPONSE TO THE MEDJUGORJE PHENOMENON
• TOMORROW PEOPLE, WHERE IS YOUR PAST? Mapping of post-war national identities in new Yugoslav states
• and many more. Dohn joe (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Hi Dohn Joe,

I restored [ Gaj's Latin alphabet |old spelling] pipelink in lede. Ledes should reflect reality, there's no question that Medjugorje is an old spelling not an alternative spelling. This is Bosnia remember, not Serbia. Even in Serbia, dj is barely used today.

Surprised by Segel, the Columbia book's decision to follow the old "dj" and spell Đuro Daničić as "Djuro Daničić" (redlink) - that is very antiquated and unusual, almost unique in an academic text, though you would occasionally see that sort of thing in sources coming out of Tito's Yugoslavia, since the then dominant Serbian group did not consistently use "đ" as Croats (ie Bosnia's Catholics) do.

Back to this town. Theres' no question about how the town is normally spelled in the local language: bs.wp Međugorje je jedno od najpoznatijih katoličkih svetišta u svijetu, ..., and in all other place names en.wp is consistent with use of đ, and consistent with all other French/Polish/etc. European small-medium sized towns on en.wp.

If we do make this town follow sources about the vision, "Medjugorje," which is basically what we'd be doing, then we'll need to add a new section for "Bosnia" to English exonym since currently Bosnia doesn't have any exonyms. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

In ictu - thanks for the dialogue. I tried reworking the "dj" vs. "đ" issue into a footnote - let me know what you think. The issue I think is that while "dj" may be an old spelling in Serbo-Croatian, it's still very much used in English (and other languages that don't use "đ"), as I showed with the refs I added.

As to the exonym issue, I think it may be applicable here. While this may be a small to medium-sized European town, which normally would take native diacritics, this particular town is much more notable than most, and precisely because of the visions and subsequent development into one of the world's largest Roman Catholic pilgrimage centers. The fact that scholarly sources often use "Medjugorje" while using other Serbo-Croatian diacritics would seem to indicate that the town has been exonym-ized. And either way, I'll add Bosnia to the exonym article - Bosnia and Herzegovina being an exonym itself! Dohn joe (talk) 23:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Hi Dohn, as to the first issue, the lede, on second thoughts I reverted myself and let your edit stand. Unfortunately, with the best will in the world, from my perspective I think that whateve the intention of the NOTE1 the result is misleading in that it should clearly indicate [ Gaj's Latin alphabet |old spelling] by pipelink. Why obscure it? If you wanted to edit lede as Međugorje, (old spelling and many English sources Medjugorje), I suppose that would be more even. But as it stands at the moment it is misleading readers who don't click the tiny NOTE1 into believing that the old spelling is still used today in Bosnia, which it isn't.

The exonym is another issue. I have a slight concern about the religious WP:POV angle, a true English exonym doesn't divide into a Lonelyplanetonym (the endonym) and a Christianonym (an exonym). However, it may be unavoidable to note in English exonym that this does appear to be the one Bosnian town widely anachronistically spelled in English sources.

No further comment for the time being. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

In ictu - my thinking in using the footnote was to avoid cluttering the lead with details that most people won't care about. Personally, I'd remove all the refs that you and I added, and leave a single "Note 1", which would likely attract more attention by itself. Of course, if we treat this as an exonym, probably the simplest way to deal with the Bosnian vs. English issue is to start the lead: "Medjugorje (Serbo-Croatian pronunciation: [medʑuɡoːrje]; Bosnian and Croatian: Međugorje) is a town...", which would make it clear that one version is English and one is Bosnian/Croatian. This would match Bosnia and Herzegovina and other exonym articles. What do you think? Dohn joe (talk) 07:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Well, I said no further comment. And I already said that a true English exonym doesn't divide into a Lonelyplanetonym (the endonym) and a Christianonym (an exonym). Beyond that, happy to wait for what JoyShallot and other project members will say... Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose: This is shaping up to be yet another bun-fight between those who think the English WP should be in English, and those who want their national particularities to be respected.

But our guidelines are clear enough; those on Titles, Naming conventions and Modified letters all say we should follow English usage; if "Međugorje" (with the "đ") is the usual way of writing this in English, we use it; if not, not.

And a google search [1] is also clear; of the 6,950,000 results for "Međugorje" (with the đ), the vast majority of results in English are spelled "Medjugorje" (dj), while those for "Međugorje" are predominantly Croatian. Also, searching for "Our Lady of Međugorje" [2] (which, I’d hazard a guess, is the main reason this place is known at all in the English-speaking world) the first dozen pages have only “Medjugorje” as the spelling.

The only exceptions to this pattern are all WP pages, which raises another issue: WP:NEO warns against neologisms that are put here in order to use WP as a means to increase usage of a term. As with new words, so with new spellings; a situation where WP is the only source of a usage in English must be frowned upon. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:34, 1 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

That is a misreading of WP:NEO and in any case Lonely Planet and other English sources support the correct spelling. The numerical predominance of low quality religious pilgrimage materials with the old -dj- might apply to Our Lady of Međugorje (not undiscussed-moved, still at correct spelling) but wouldn't to the town Međugorje which predates the vision. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

• Support. Wikipedia doesn't usually strip diacritics from placenames (cf. others in the List of populated places in Bosnia and Herzegovina). Although the arguments above for "Medjugorje" as an exonym may have some merit, such usage does not show up on print maps where other exonyms are in use. —  AjaxSmack  23:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think saying "WP doesn't usually strip diacritics from placenames" is somewhat begging the question. The debate about whether to use diacritcs and modified letters or not has been festering on for years, with no conclusion in sight. There is no enthusiasm generally for changing the guidelines on following English usage, and if there is a plethora of placenames that use local rather than English spelling it is a tribute to those who create such pages and/or those who fight tooth and nail to move/keep from moving such placenames at RMs, than anything else. Moonraker12 (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

I have always supported using English placenames from Cracow to Elsinore to Saragossa to Brunswick. "Medjugorje" doesn't seem to be an English name but a technical workaround for a problem that no longer exists. —  AjaxSmack  02:41, 12 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

And yet a google search would suggest that "Medjugorje" (for whatever reason) is the English name for the place. Moonraker12 (talk) 13:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Moonraker, sorry but you seem to be badly out of touch. UserAjaxSmack's comment "WP doesn't usually strip diacritics from placenames" is in fact an understatement. If you do not think UserAjaxSmack's comment is fact, then please provide one other European Latin-alphabet placename article apart from this undiscussed move which has stripped diacritics. On en.wp 100% of Balkan place names with "đ" use "đ" as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) (or similar for Bosnian which is written in Latin anyway). As evidence of CONSISTENCY, when this article was unilaterally moved without discussion the related articles Our Lady of Međugorje and Status of Međugorje were left at the correct spelling in quality English sources such as Lonely Planet. The "debate" about whether to use diacritics and modified letters for Eastern European place names concluded years ago, despite the activity of a small number of editors against consensus. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK; but what I said was, the statement is begging the question.

I’m not disputing that there are a vast number of articles here with diacritcs and modified letters in them; what I am saying is the guidelines we have don’t support that state of affairs. You might well say the debate is concluded, "despite the activity of a small number of editors against consensus"; but it could equally be said the debate is ongoing (like here, for example), driven by he activity of a small number of editors working against guidelines. If the consensus is that clear maybe the guidelines we have should be changed and then there wont be anything to argue about.

I hadn’t seen WP:CYR before but (off the top of my head) it says there that they are “not a recommendation” , and that the page merely “documents the current usage”. And it does say in a couple of places “If a name or word has a conventional English spelling, that is used” which is surely the situation here. So how does that help you? Moonraker12 (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Moonraker12, you actually were disputing it, but in any case that wasn't the question - you were asked to provide one other European Latin-alphabet placename article apart from this undiscussed move which has stripped diacritics. As for the guideline you need to look back in the edit history to find earlier edits which reflected the consensus of the 1000s of editors who create and edit geo articles is that we do not "anglicize" European towns. The only exception is this one, which was an undiscussed move setting it at odds with Our Lady of Međugorje and Status of Međugorje. As to the argument below, "if we use the "đ", to the 99% of the world's population who don’t know Serbo Croat it will look like a "d""... well surely you'd agree that it won't, it will look like a crossed d, which is what it is. So how or why is that a problem? Apply the same argument to Llŷn Peninsula, or indeed an article I note you created, List of Jäger units, not "Jaeger units". Bosnian đ is no more problematic than Welsh Llŷn, German Jäger, or indeed Charlotte Brontë. Why should this article be the 1x European place name exception on the whole of en.wp? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

In ictu - I do wish that you would restrain your hyperbole. If you'd like 1x example, go to English exonyms, where you'll find the following European examples: Aragon, Pyrenees, Istanbul, Zurich. Outside of Europe, you'll find articles on Mexico, Peru, Hanoi, Mekong. Those are just articles where the only difference in orthography is the lack of a diacritical mark. So it happens all the time. And an even more apt comparison is to placenames that replace one grapheme with another. See Azores (not Açores), Ghent (not Gent), Hanover (not Hannover). Or even Herzegovina (not Hercegovina). And once again, "đ" often gets special treatment - even here on WP, where you'll find articles on Novak Djokovic and Nebojsa Djordjevic. It's not at all unusual for WP articles to show the most common English orthographic version of a placename where one exists. Dohn joe (talk) 19:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Dohn, those examples show it isn't hyperbole. The point is that those are real exonyms, those are documented, sourced, accepted, agreed, consistent and listed in grammar and geography books. Frommers, EU, Lonely Planet and pilgrimage websites don't disagree.

This 1x however is an undiscussed move of a European town from the accurate spelling to an approximation found in low quality pilgrimage pdfs while leaving Our Lady of Međugorje and Status of Međugorje spelled in Bosnian.

Do you know of any other 1x European town on en.wp which has been moved in this manner? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Strawmen aside, I don't see how you can make the "low quality pilgrimage pdfs" claim when I've already shown you multiple examples of quality, reliable sources that use "Medjugorje" while using other diacritics. Do you not recall those examples above? And this is leaving aside the hundreds of other reliable sources that use "Medjugorje" in English (see Princeton University Press, American Geographical Society of New York, The George Washington University Institute for Ethnographic Research, Association for the Study of Ethnicity and Nationalism, ad nauseum). Dohn joe (talk) 23:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think your last point is a bit disingenuous; there are shoals of articles, on all kinds of subjects, that have been moved without discussion from an English spelling to a native spelling, and have, often, been maintained there through move wars and/or bitter, drawn-out RM arguments. Citing success in this area is an argument of might over right more than anything else. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:35, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

(ec)In ictu: Now we seem to be arguing about what you think I said as compared to what I think I said. I took the statement “ WP doesn’t usually strip diacritics from placenames” to carry the implied premise that using anglicized spelling (ie without diacritics) was wrong per se, and that we should not do so in this case either. But on reflection I can see that you might think I meant something different. What I am saying, though, is that just because it is so doesn’t mean it ought to be so. The articles concerned may meet the requirements of the guidelines, or they may have been created (or moved) in spite of them: The fact that they exist doesn’t prove anything much in this situation.

And I don’t see that I need to provide any examples of anything: your argument is that we should use the local spelling for consistency (which isn’t a naming convention guideline AFAIK), while mine is we should use the spelling used in English language sources, per WP:TITLE (which is). We will presumably see which position carries the most weight.

Your comment “As for the guideline, look at the consensus” it’s a non sequiter; if editors (1000’s? really?) are ignoring the guidelines we have, it doesn’t invalidate the guidelines themselves; if the consensus really is that clear, then you consenting editors should have the guidelines changed, and that’ll be an end to it.

And what you can be sure of is that I don’t agree that people who are unfamiliar with a crossed d would easily distinguish it from a standard d, or would know what it signifies even if they did notice; I didn’t, before I joined this conversation (though I know there’s one in Vietnamese, and in Icelandic) and I’m sure I’m not alone.

As for Llŷn, and the Jäger list (that’s going back a bit!) both those spellings occur in English; the usage is ambiguous, so either would be OK. And I used Jäger instead of Jaeger for internal consistency (for which we do have a guideline). Moonraker12 (talk) 23:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Moonraker 12, so what's the difference? Međugorje is used in non-religious sources in English, just as Llŷn Penisula and Jäger list can also be found in better quality English print sources. And yes WP:CONSISTENCY is a guideline, so why do you want to apply WP:CONSISTENCY to Jäger list, but want to move Međugorje → 1881 spelling while leaving all other medium sized European towns on en.wp spelled accurately according to Lonely Planet, Frommers and EU sources but leave Our Lady of Međugorje and Status of Međugorje which is the subject of these religious pdfs spelled accurately? So by WP:CONSISTENCY shouldn't you support keeping this 1x article consistent with the naming conventions such as WP:CYR? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:47, 15 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

The difference is that the guideline linked is WP:MOS#Consistency within articles; the title says it all. Whereas WP:CYR isn’t a guideline, or even a recommendation (as has been said before…). Moonraker12 (talk) 16:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

• Support for the sake of consistency and precision. <dj> could also stand for the Cyrillic "дј", while <đ> is unambiguously the Cyrillic "ђ" (though no one will be mislead if they know basic Serbo-Croatian). --Theurgist (talk) 08:16, 10 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think the concern should be not misleading those who don’t have a basic knowledge of Serbo-Croat. Moonraker12 (talk) 13:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Exactly. With a đ, no one will be mislead, no matter how little Serbo-Croat they know (or don't know). That's just the (contemporary) accurate spelling. And with a dj, you have to know some Serbo-Croat in order to figure out that it actually is đ. --Theurgist (talk) 17:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

There’s no “exactly” about it. If we use the "đ", to the 99% of the world's population who don’t know Serbo Croat it will look like a "d" or be some unknown modified letter; using the "dj" transliteration at least gives an approximation of the way it’s pronounced. Which is why it’s done that way in English. And anyone who wants to know the Serbo-Croat spelling would have it there in the lead sentence (Serbo-Croat: Međugorje), as per the guideline. Moonraker12 (talk) 13:30, 12 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

No, we're not transcribing the place name, or otherwise we'd have to respell Podgorica as "Podgoritsa", Milošević as "Miloshevich", Karadžić as "Karajich" and so on. Međugorje itself would end up as "Me(d)jugorye". Since the late 19th century, "đ" is the correct and standard way of representing that phoneme, and not just a "d" but a "dj" is used to substitute the modified character "đ" when the latter is unavailable or undesired. That that the "dj" in Medjugorje is akin to the "dj" in English adjust is pure coincidence.

pronunciation, IPA	dʑ	dj
Cyrillic	ђ	дј
Latin	đ	dj
circumventing modified characters	dj	dj

Why make it ambiguous and misleading when there's nothing to prevent us from doing otherwise? --Theurgist (talk) 22:38, 12 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

As per Theurgist, worth noting that Bosnian does actually have some real "Dj" place names such as bs:Djevičanska ostrva where the pronunciation really is IPA "dj" not "dʑ". In ictu oculi (talk) 03:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Theurgist: I’m pretty sure we use Podgorica as a title because the majority of English language sources use it; if they used another spelling we should use that. And yes, if there are two spellings in common use in English it can be ambiguous; but that isn’t the case here, is it? In this case pretty much all the English sources (except WP!) use “Medjugorje”. What would be misleading would be to tuck the article away at a spelling where no-one (except, presumably, Croats and Bosniaks) would look for it. And what prevents us from doing otherwise? That would be are our guidelines. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Still, I don't think "Medjugorje" is as assimilated in the English language as Montreal, Istanbul and Riga are. --Theurgist (talk) 09:00, 15 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

• The argument for dj needs to be made in more encyclopedic terms. Yes, it may help pronunciation a wee bit, but what about the last j that simply isn't going to be pronounced correctly by the typical English speaker? Either we strive for pronouncability, or we strive for precision - in this case trying to do both makes the title inconsistent for little benefit. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:59, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Actually, the argument for the "dj" is that in this case it is the English spelling, which (as you know) is highly idiosyncratic. If you are looking for consistency and precision you are in the wrong language. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Moonraker12, as before please see WP:RS "reliable for the statement being made" "best such sources". You have yet to provide a 1x source showing all other Bosnian towns with "đ" and this one spelled distinctly. As before quality English language sources (such as Lonely Planet and Frommers) do have consistency and precision, and the plethora of religious/pilgrimage sources mentioning the vision are not the benchmark of what constitutes the English language. Compare European Union Police Mission reports "Bankers from Banja Luka brutally beaten in Međugorje" which cover Bosnia more broadly than focussing on just pilgrimage sites. Is this Bosnian town the 1x exception in EU English reports? Does a special exonym status exist as for Munich, or are pilgrimage pdfs written with a lower MOS than European Union Police Mission reports? This is the question, and you still haven't answered it. Anyone can expect more low MOS sources for a populist subject, but if we went by those sort of counts en.wp would have a guideline "WP:ignore quality sources and prefer tabloid errors for foreign sports players and pop stars" We have no such practice. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Now we are repeating ourselves. You have already been given examples of other European place-names in English,[3] and examples of non-religious sources giving Medjugorje as a spelling.[4]. And we are also back to implicit assumptions again: “The one exception”? “Sources that use 'Medjugorje' are exclusively religious”? “Religious sources cannot be used to determine English usage”? “local spelling = accurate spelling”? “Religious/pilgrimage websites, documents = poor quality sources”? “Sources that use 'Međugorje' = better quality”? All of these assertions would need proving before they have any validity. As for "sources reliable for the statement made", simple numbers in Google searches do have some value, as you well know. What a google search can do is "identify the names for things", and "confirm roughly how popularly referenced an expression is". In this case "Medjugorje" is roughly 50 times more popular in English than the local spelling. It isn’t brain surgery...Moonraker12 (talk) 16:22, 17 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Unless you can cite an English dictionary that can demonstrate that "Medjugorje" somehow became an English word, as opposed to a near-verbatim import of a Croatian word, you only have WP:COMMONNAME in support of the claim it's "the English spelling". Yet, the common name policy doesn't invalidate WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, which you should really look at with regard to your claims about consistency and precision. If nobody else is willing to provide a better argument for the "dj", I support the move. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

How about Britannica? The Kids online version uses all sorts of diacritics - "Kraków", "François Mitterrand", "Søren Kierkegaard"; but leaves them out in others - "Istanbul", "Mexico", and "Medjugorje". Is that at all persuasive of modern English usage by an authoritative reference? Dohn joe (talk) 19:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Not really, given that your examples of Mexico and Istanbul are well-known toponyms that have become English exonyms without é or İ. In those cases, one doesn't really have to invoke the common name policy - the "use English" policy is sufficient, as in the case of Munich or Rome. OTOH Međugorje is a small village in Herzegovina that has nowhere near the English-speaking exposure as those two. It's a legitimate argument that the Marian apparitions have "put it on the world map" and that the exonym was created. I disagree with that assertion until some convincing evidence is shown that trumps the other naming criteria. Britannica Kids is going in that direction, but I'm not convinced because it's a tertiary source after all and this might as well be treated as a style issue there. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the response. Can I ask, though - if you're troubled by the tertiary source, what about the academic secondary sources I've shown that use "Medjugorje" while using other Serbo-Croatian diacritics? They're posted elsewhere on this page, but let me know if you'd like me to show you a few examples. Dohn joe (talk) 23:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. This ngram suggests that "Medjugorje" is the common name by an overwhelming margin. I get 1,120 post-1990 English language GBook hits for "Međugorje", 54,100 for "Medjugorje". Kauffner (talk) 19:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Reply
• Support Both Medjugorje and Međugorje are used in modern English, though the dj form probably results from the inability of English keyboards and typesetters in the past to distinguish between đ and ð, a problem that has only been rectified within the last few years, and a problem we do not suffer from on Wikipedia. The argument that we should use dj so that people know how to pronounce the word is nonsense: the pronunciation guide is normally given in the first line of an article, as in this article, and is often accompanied by a sound file. The title is not the place for a pronunciation guide. As In ictu oculi has pointed out, we do not use simple Google hit numbers, but are required to rely on reputable sources, which seem to overwhelmingly favour Međugorje. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:53, 16 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

• So Lonely Planet and Frommers, the travel guides IIO cites, are more "reputable" than other sources? This is not what our guidelines say: "When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage." (WP:PLACE) Kauffner (talk) 05:25, 17 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Kauffner, I think you know full well that EU Policing Report, Lonely Planet and Frommers etc. are books not roadmaps and give "Munich" and "Nuremburg" just as they give Međimurje, Međulužje and Međugorje. The contrast here is not roadmaps vs books, but a large number of low quality pilgrimage websites and books that fail WP:IRS.

So Lonely Planet and Frommer's are not guidebooks? They have a style designed to correspond to local signage in order to assist the traveler. So they obviously aren't the best source for the English-language common name. Kauffner (talk) 13:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

yellow highlighting added for visibility In ictu oculi (talk) 08:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Skinsmoke: Can you give some examples of these reliable sources that “overwhelmingly favour” the local spelling? In a search on Google Books for "Međugorje" only the first couple of dozen actually use that spelling; after that they use the anglicized spelling fairly exclusively. It doesn’t compare well to the 77,000 results for the anglicized spelling. And none of the British media seem to use it: The BBC doesn't, the broadsheets don't, though they all have results for "Medjugorje". And the reason why is irrelevant to determining COMMON NAME, and TITLE; what is relevant is that is that anclicized spelling is preferred over local spelling by a factor of 50. Interestingly, this story in the Independent refers to Marin Cilic and Goran Ivanisevic without diacritics, but has no trouble with “protégé”. Make of it what you will... Moonraker12 (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Using the term "anglicized" to describe the difference between "Međugorje" and "Medjugorje" is hardly accurate; if it was an actual anglicization, we'd be talking about "Mejugorye" or something like that. Rather, this is a fairly typical diacritics problem. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

• One month later - after 32 days 7 support restoring, 3 oppose restoring. This undiscussed move went against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Cyrillic)#Serbian let alone consensus of WP BOSNIA and should be restored to consistency with all other Balkan geo articles. If someone wants to put in a RM for Our Lady of Međugorje then maybe it'd be more appropriate to rely on religious sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

  Each of those statements is demonstrably not true. There are currently 6 supports (the nominator did not support, but simply listed this pro forma). WP:Naming conventions (Cyrillic)#Serbian does not apply, as this name is not natively in Cyrillic. There is no such thing as WP:BOSNIA, and thus no undefined "consensus" that this article is violating. And this article is consistent with other Balkan geography articles. Where there is a form that is widely used in English, such as with Bosnia and Herzegovina itself, we use it.

  Finally, and most troubling, In ictu and others continue to claim that only "religious sources" use "Medjugorje", in the face of repeated evidence to the contrary. I don't see how we can have an honest debate - or how that debate can be evaluated - until the opposers acknowledge that plenty of reliable English-language sources do in fact use "Medjugorje". Dohn joe (talk) 22:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

DohnJoe, there is no call for emotive language like "demonstrably not true" or "[dis]honest." Please consider:

(1) I was assuming that nominator having already undone your undiscussed move until you insisted on it standing, meant the nominator supported his own move. If that's not the case that is unusual but then yes 6 vs 3, but you do not get to use language like "demonstrably not true" or "[dis]honest". Do you really think that this language is suitable?

(2) WP:Naming conventions (Cyrillic)#Serbian does apply, as this name, like all in the former Yugoslavia, exist both in Gaj's Latin and Cyrillic.

(3) It is your own assumption that I meant WP BOSNIA as a shortcut "WP:BOSNIA", I was referring to Wikipedia:WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina which does exist, and does have consensus standards in line with the name of this article before you moved it, without, it should be said, even noting on Talk Page. So really does your jumping to this conclusion justify your "demonstrably not true" or "[dis]honest" language?

(4) the evidence has already been presented that these "Medjugorje" references are predominantly post the apparation of the Virgin in 1981, and out of line with secular, municipal, administrative etc. usage for towns in Bosnia as a whole. We do not get secular sources saying "Međuvođe, Međulužje, Međuvršje..." and then suddenly switch "...and Medjugorje." The prevalence of Google hits for the pre-1880 spelling is entirely a function of the Virgin having appeared in 1981 in Međugorje, and not Međulužje, Međuvršje or the 100x other Među- Međi- geo articles on en.wp. All these searches above are doing are reflecting the typographic limitations of sources discussing the religious aspect, not how a reliable consistent geographical source - like the EU or Frommers - consistently treats this name the same as any other. If you have a reliable non-religious source that presents a sentence "Međuvođe, Međulužje, Međuvršje..." and then suddenly switches "...and Medjugorje." please present it. In the meantime I am not going to indulge in language like "demonstrably not true" or "[dis]honest" regarding a difference in perspective and methodology. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

This is the frustrating part. I have repeatedly shown multiple reliable, academic and reference sources that use "Medjugorje" while freely using other Serbo-Croatian diacritics. To repeat - again - please see Research in the Social Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 10, p.155; MEDJUGORJE'S EFFECT'S: A HISTORY OF LOCAL, STATE AND CHURCH RESPONSE TO THE MEDJUGORJE PHENOMENON; TOMORROW PEOPLE, WHERE IS YOUR PAST? Mapping of post-war national identities in new Yugoslav states; and Britannica. These are not "low-quality pilgrimage pdfs" or "religious sources". And yet that seems to be the basis of many of the oppose !votes - that only low-quality sources use "Medjugorje". When the reality is that hundreds of academic sources use "Medjugorje" - including many with no relevant typographic limitations. Dohn joe (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

In ictu: Are you still going on about this? Now we really are going round in circles.

First off, 6 (or 7) for and 3 against is simply a majority, not a consensus (not even a local one); consensus is determined by “the quality of the arguments given...as viewed through the lens of WP policy”, something you have signally failed to do. Just about all the policies we have on the subject (WP:TITLE, WP:ENGLISH, WP:DIACRITIC, etc) say we should follow English usage when writing articles and choosing titles, and just about every measure we use to determine this (media, books, sources, google searches, etc) shows "Medjugorje" to be the spelling in common English usage (and by a ratio of about 50 to one!). In reply you have made vague references to WP:CYR (which isn’t even a recommendation, let alone a guideline) and to the #Serbian sub-section there (which is part of a section clearly labelled “when no commonly accepted form exists in English”); and also a cryptic reference to WP:BiH which makes no recommendation about consistently using local spelling either, (and would be in breach of general guidelines if it did). This has been pointed out before; how is it not “misleading” to keep referring to them as if they were guidelines?

As for your constant refrain that the support for this spelling rests on religious sources which (you claim) are "inferior" to secular sources, you have been given half a dozen secular uses of "Medjugorje" (which compares well to the three sources you persistently trot out for the local spelling): And in any case begs the question (as has been said before); why is a British (or Irish, or American, etc) religious source, written in English by English-speakers, a less reliable guide to English language usage than, say, an EU translation of a (presumably) Bosnian document, or a travel guide (where local spellings would be expected)?

As these claims of yours have been repeatedly demonstrated as being untrue, what other phrase than “demonstrably untrue” would you prefer? Moonraker12 (talk) 12:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Repeat: if you have a WP:RS compliant non-religious source that presents a sentence "Međuvođe, Međulužje, Međuvršje..." and then suddenly switches "...and Medjugorje." then please present it. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Relevance?? What on earth would that prove? That the English spelling isn’t the same as the Serbo-Croat one? We already know that!

OTOH if you have any evidence that your spelling is the one in general and widespread use in English, or know of a genuine WP policy that requires us to use a local spelling in preference to a commonly-used English one, you need to present that. Moonraker12 (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Moonraker,

Could you perhaps please take it down a notch.

Thanks.

A source which gave "Međuvođe, Međulužje, Međuvršje... Medjugorje." would prove that Medjugorje is really in use in WP:RS "the best such sources" which are WP:RS "reliable for the statement being made"

Just as

"Göttingen, Münster, ...Munich" per WP:PLACE

It's a simple and harmless request.

In ictu oculi (talk) 17:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Take it down a a notch? Why? Do you think I’m annoyed?

You don’t accept usage as a way of determining English language usage.

You don’t accept religious sources, presumably because they are religious.

You don’t accept (or are choosing to ignore) secular sources provided for you.

You don’t accept that, if "the statement being made" is merely the commonest English usage, then 50,000+ sources preferring one spelling compared to a couple of dozen using something else is reliable enough.

And you refuse toto justify any of this except to make vague references to policies we have, or make misleading ones to other WP resources that aren't.

What you are now demanding (for no clear reason; there nothing at WP:PLACE about it) is a particular source that not only gives "Medjugorje" in its English spelling but also mentions three other Bosnian villages that have no notability in English whatsoever (check it out).

Its hardly a simple and harmless request; Why would I be anything but annoyed?

As it turns out, the only source that has all four in the form you want is the English WP, so now we’re back to the beginning of the circle again. Moonraker12 (talk) 09:51, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. I don't think any of those supporting the move have successfully countered Dohn joe's argument that "Medjugorje" is by far the most common version in English sources, including high quality sources. Per WP:COMMON, we should go with the current version.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Cúchullain, it's an old one of course, but as usual with these "including high quality sources" for what purpose? What should be the definition of "high quality" here? What is a high quality source for the spelling of Noël Coward for example? Is a source that says "Charlotte Bronte" a high quality source for the spelling of Noël Coward? It's the same question. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

High quality, often university-published sources discussing the town, such as this book from the Oxford UP, which uses diacritics in other names but not this one.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Cúchullain.

Yes, actually that is a good illustration of what I mean. I think that source has been mentioned before, at least I've looked at it before, and surprisingly it doesn't pass the Charlotte Brontë-benchmark for Noël Coward, ë for ë test. Or in this case the đ-benchmark for đ test. In Perica's Balkan idols (OUP, 2002) đ and "dj" have been merged as the old Gaj's alphabet. To confirm this note that the book spells Franjo Tuđman as "Franjo Tudjman." Note also P276 and P288 twice cite a newspaper article Deset godina kasnije, Novo čudo u Međugorju 1991 as "čudo u Medjugorju."

FWIW this appears to be a common OUP problem, it isn't just Perica's Balkan idols which doesn't distinguish "đ" and "dj", Todorova's Imagining the Balkans (OUP 2009, doesn't mention Međugorje) also has a complete old-Gaj's alphabet set, missing đ and also "dj". On occasions where Todorova tries to insert đ OUP's software picks up Icelandic eth ð instead, so "the Sarajevan daily Osloboðenje published.." P53 instead of Oslobođenje.

This is why I'm asking for a source that uses đ for other towns/names to establish if Međugorje is really different, or if it just appears in a lot of sources with no đ. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

How's this: Religious Separation and Political Intolerance in Bosnia Herzegovina. See p. 143 "Karađorđević" and compare with p. 209 "Medjugorje". Is that what you've been waiting for? Dohn joe (talk) 02:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes.

Ideally you should have presented that source on the Talk page on August 2011 before making an undiscussed move.

But it is good to see, finally, 1x source which passes WP:RS "reliable for the statement being made". Yes College Station: Texas A&M University Press, 2003. treat this as an exonym. How many reliable sources is our pool now? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

In ictu - please stop moving the goalposts. You asked for 1x, I provided 1x. If you're still not satisfied, here's 1x more: Politics of Ethnic Cleansing. "Medjugorje" p. 9, "Karađorđević" p. 39. Please let me know how many x you require. Dohn joe (talk) 06:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Just a minute, In ictu; who are you trying to kid?

“1x source”? “how many reliable sources in our pool now?”? There are over 50,000 sources here which you still haven’t explained how, as English language sources, they are unreliable for "the statement being made" (ie what name is commonly used in English)

There's nothing at WP:RS about a "Charlotte Bronte benchmark", there's nothing there about sources like OUP being unreliable (!) because they don’t spell Franjo Tudjman's name the way you'd like it spelt (guess what: no-one in the English-speaking world does, except the English WP, of course)

I’m sure you’ve had a lot of fun finding smaller and smaller hoops for people to jump though, but unless have some reasonable answers to the questions you’ve repeatedly been asked, I’d say it was time for you to drop the stick. Moonraker12 (talk) 10:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Moonraker

You were asked to please take it down a notch.

This does not constitute taking it down a notch:

"who are you trying to kid?" = ad hominem

"I’m sure you’ve had a lot of fun" = ad hominem

"the way you'd like it spelt" = ad hominem

However, as asked, your requested explanation is below.

In ictu oculi (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

In ictu I couldn't care less about the "Charlotte Brontë-benchmark" or whether sources use the "đ" in other names. I care about how an English speaker is going to encounter this name in English sources. It would appear that, overwhelmingly, it's Medjugorje in the best available sources for the topic, including in sources that use other diacritics, and even in some sources that do use the đ otherwise. Open and shut as far as I'm concerned.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Okay,

by way of explanation:

(1) The benchmarking to the methodology to Charlotte Brontë is to take out the "foreign" issue.

(2) I remain of the opinion that sources which don't have "ë" in the font set are not WP:RS "the best such sources" or WP:RS "reliable for the statement being made" re the statement of the spelling of a name with ë.

I hope (1) and (2) above are self-explanatory.

I also remain of the opinion that this was a disruptive undiscussed move pulling this article out of line from all other medium sized European towns, failing a consensus a close should revert to pre-undiscussed move status quo and not uphold the undiscussed move. That is just my opinion. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I understand your position, but think you are being too pedantic and pertinacious. You're certainly not helping your own position by responding to every single comment.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Support. The native form is commonly seen in English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

As the evidence is very much to the contrary (and has been pointed out previously) perhaps you’d care to give some proof of this “common use in English”? Moonraker12 (talk) 12:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose - per sources provided by Dohn joe. mgeo talk 23:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.