Talk:Benito Mussolini
Latest comment: 5 days ago by Meluiel in topic Inclusion of "MI5 Agent" detail
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Someone add this colored image
editSOMEONE ADD THIS — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheGreatDSW (talk • contribs) 12:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2024
editThis edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove flags per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG, same as per previous edit. 49.150.14.10 (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Political influence father and/or mother
editDear all, the recent book bu Phillips P. O'Brien on, among others, Mussolini (The strategists) mentions the double and diverging influence of his father (more of an anarchist/revolutionary socialist) and his mother (more of a Roman Catholic and Italian nationalist).
The current Wiki page mentions only the father as an influence for both ideologies, and therefor seems to miss out on the conflict implied by the mother and the father's competing worldviews.
To be adapted? 193.190.218.1 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Alternatives to Current Image
editAs suggested by Tom B in his closing opinion on the Rfc provided above, I am starting a thread to narrow down alternatives to the current lede image for future discussion. If you feel so inclined, please share your opinion on which option you prefer.
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A
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B
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C
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D
.jpg){kind=link}
(d).jpg){kind=link}
.jpg){kind=link}
Emiya1980 (talk) 23:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ალექსანდროს, Jtbwikiman, Curbon7, SMcCandlish, VampaVampa, HTGS, MaximusEditor, AlexandraAVX, Rjensen, Cossde, and Alessandro57: In light of your previously expressed opinions in favor a new lede image for Benito Mussolini, you are invited to participate in the aforementioned discussion regarding the best alternative. If you feel so inclined, please share your opinions here. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Shadow4dark: Emiya1980 (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Does this mean we will go next discussion with the status quo? Shadow4dark (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sometime in the future, yes. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Does this mean we will go next discussion with the status quo? Shadow4dark (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Shadow4dark: Emiya1980 (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- C, B, status quo, A, most to least preferred, for reasons given in previous rounds. Reject D outright as too grainy and washed-out. However, if a much better-quality version of that image can be found, it would actually be my 2nd or 3rd choice. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- A/C, not B/D/status quo. When i closed I hadn't intended to participate, but i just got pinged. I generally prefer colour so have put C. A looks the highest quality. D is the lowest quality, and B is lower quality. I like the status quo the least, as that side profile only shows half his face, Tom B (talk) 08:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- B, C, D, A. The only picture in which Mussolini is himself is B, all the others are official pictures meant to show him as an authoritarian man. Alex2006 (talk) 14:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- C. It is a clear image that displays his signature look. Most people wouldn’t even be able to tell that D is Mussolini. Trakking (talk) 15:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- B - Thanks for pinging me, I have preference towards B, but fine with the other 3. MaximusEditor (talk) 16:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- C, then A. And I have no problem with the man being represented in a propagandistic way; it is a part of the cultural image we have of him. (Next time it would be nice if you kept the same numbering/lettering, so we can just re-vote easily, rather than having to reanalyse or re-code our last answer.) — HTGS (talk) 22:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- C this one looks as a formal portrait if people not want propaganda picture they should vote for D as this one is most neutral but lacks quality. Shadow4dark (talk) 19:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Status quo, per others and MOS:PORTRAIT:
It is often preferable to place a portrait (image or representation of a person) so that they "look" toward the text
. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- This poll is to determine the best of the alternative images. Once decided, the top choice will be measured against the status quo. Also “It is often preferable” is meaningless to us. We can clearly choose any image, even one that doesn’t face the text. — HTGS (talk) 04:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- The current image is just fine though. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 13:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don’t disagree. — HTGS (talk) 04:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)d
- The current image is just fine though. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 13:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- This poll is to determine the best of the alternative images. Once decided, the top choice will be measured against the status quo. Also “It is often preferable” is meaningless to us. We can clearly choose any image, even one that doesn’t face the text. — HTGS (talk) 04:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Based on my review of the tally, it appears that most people are in favor of C. Does anyone have any other ideas on what would be the best alternative image? Emiya1980 (talk) 05:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Minor corrections in Early Life
editHi!
in the "Early Life" section the text says: Mussolini was sent to a boarding school in Faenza run by Salesian monks. However Salesians are not monks, but 'religiouses'. Suggested change: Mussolini was sent to a boarding school in Faenza run by Salesians. SiGe91 (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- @SiGe91: Done: [1]. JacktheBrown (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
Inclusion of "MI5 Agent" detail
edit@VampaVampa per BRD. I think the inclusion of this section (given below) is pretty problematic. My issues with it are as follows:
- Explicitly calling Mussolini an "MI5 agent" is pretty extraordinary. Given the extensiveness of scholarship on Mussolini, I'd like to see a proper scholarly source supporting this specific claim in context, rather than relying on a modern newspaper report that already gets things wrong (e.g. saying he "got his start in politics" in 1917 is ludicrous for the man who was made chief editor of Avanti! in 1912). Similarly, drawing a through line from British payments to his support of the breaking up of strikes would require a stronger source—especially when books suggest his position didn't actually change as a result of this external funding (e.g. [1]) Neither [2] nor [3] suggest this conversion to supporting strikebreaking either.
- It's excessive detail for this top-level biography. We don't need to know the details of his pay or his handler in an article that's already some 14,000 words long (see WP:SIZERULE and WP:ONUS). It would be much more natural to include this in the wiki pages for Il Popolo and Hoare. Besides, we have no context for how important this pay was—if we had stats on the contributions from France, from Italian industry, or the general finances of the paper, it would fit more naturally. At the moment it's just a cash figure devoid of any context that might allow the reader to understand its significance (or lack thereof).
- A quick survey of Mussolini biographies: while they typically do make explicit mention of Il Popolo's funding, they don't go into this sort of granular detail—Britain gets at the very most a passing mention. For example:
- [4] no mention of the paper's funding
- [5] mentions the paper's funding from various sources (Fiat, agrarian interests, Britain and France) but does not go into any numerical specifics
- [6] discusses the sources of funding but again without any specifics, stresses the variety of places from which funding came
- [7] similar to Neville: mentions both domestic and foreign, private and governmental funding, but no specifics.
- [8] mentions French and British subsidies, and actually mentions Hoare's funding of £100 a week—but as an incidental detail in the citation rather than the body, more interesting because of Hoare's later position than because of the actual funding.
Likewise none of these biographies make any mention of breaking strikes with veterans in 1917.
As such inclusion seems very WP:UNDUE to me: if numerous biographies with more luxurious space allowances give only passing mentions, then we shouldn't include such detail. If you have stronger sources, though, I'd love to see them.
Passage in question
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In the autumn of 1917, he was recruited as a MI5 agent with a £100 weekly wage by Sir Samuel Hoare, the agency's representative in Rome, in return for which he promised not only to keep up pro-war propaganda in Il Popolo but also to send army veterans in to break up any pro-peace strikes in Milan factories[9] |
Meluiel (talk) 23:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- ^ Neville, Peter (2014-09-15). Mussolini. Routledge. p. 34. doi:10.4324/9781315750736. ISBN 978-1-315-75073-6.
His already clear commitment to Italian intervention in the war also made it unlikely that the editorial position of his newspaper was actually influenced by those who funded him.
- ^ Grand, Alexander J. De (1989). Italian Fascism. Lincoln: Bison Books. ISBN 978-0-8032-6578-3.
- ^ Sternhell, Zeev; Sznajder, Mario; Ashéri, Maia (1994). The Birth of Fascist Ideology. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-04486-6.
- ^ Clark, Martin (2014). Mussolini. Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781315845616. ISBN 978-1-317-89840-5.
- ^ Neville, Peter (2014). Mussolini. Routledge. p. 34. doi:10.4324/9781315750736. ISBN 978-1-315-75073-6.
- ^ Gregor, A James (2022). Young Mussolini and the Intellectual Origins of Fascism. Univ of California Press. pp. 186–187, 200. ISBN 978-0-520-33314-7.
- ^ Mack Smith, Denis (2002). Mussolini. p. 25. ISBN 978-1-84212-606-6.
- ^ Bosworth, R. J. B. (2011). Mussolini. London: Bloomsbury Academic. p. 90. ISBN 0-340-98173-3.
- ^ Kington, Tom (13 October 2009). "Recruited by MI5: the name's Mussolini. Benito Mussolini. Documents reveal Italian dictator got start in politics in 1917 with help of £100 weekly wage from MI5". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 19 May 2019. Retrieved 14 October 2009.
Mussolini was paid £100 a week from the autumn of 1917 for at least a year to keep up the pro-war campaigning—equivalent to about £6,000 a week today