Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 May 23

David Edwards (basketball) – Draftify. Clear consensus to allow the article to return in various flavors. I went with Editorofthewiki's request to draftify. Page is now at Draft:David Edwards (basketball) -- RoySmith (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

This article suffered from low turnout, though the close may have been justified. However, several obits have come out due to his untimely passing. Such as [1] [2] [3]. I request that the article be recreated, and it is easier to use what was already there than start over again. It should be noted that the article creator, User:BlackAmerican, had been blocked but has since been unblocked. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 19:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sad to see that he has passed due to coronavirus. That being said, I'm not convinced he would pass another AfD using those obituaries. SportingFlyer T·C 23:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Why not? He holds the Texas A&M single-season assists record, played professionally in Iceland and Lithuania, and has an obit in the New York times. Why don't you think he would pass an AfD? ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 02:16, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - He was correctly deleted at AfD previously, fails our SNGs (specifically WP:NCOLLATH and WP:NBASKET), of the two articles on him listed at the AfD neither are all that bad but both are "this player is on a team playing a local team" stories (remember he was local to New York), and I don't think he became notable just because the New York Times published his obituary alongside a number of other non-notable people who also unfortunately have been sadly taken from us by the coronavirus pushes him past the border of borderline notability. So endorse the AfD for being correct, but I don't support the refund or the recreation. SportingFlyer T·C 04:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - If he played on a professional team in Iceland and Lithuania, doesn't he pass the relevant SNG? I realize that's not exactly what the nom said, but I can't see the article and I'm just checking. Hobit (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - The article did say (and reference) that, but it's not enough for WP:NBASKET, which only recognizes a handful of specific leagues. —Cryptic 20:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        That would explain it. Thanks, I should have looked before I asked. Hobit (talk) 21:03, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete and allow re-creation, whether direct or via draftspace or userspace. Those are good obituary sources, written by a journalist (not family), published by the newspaper (not paid by the family), and are written from a distant perspective for a broad audience. With the subject having died, there is no athlete/sport promotional aspect, and I am confident that it will be kept if renominated at AfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- If a sportsperson wasn't Wikipedia-notable in life, does an obituary really get them over the line? SportingFlyer T·C 04:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sources are the very definition of wiki-notable. So yeah, if they are reliable, independent, and in-depth they certainly can. Hobit (talk) 04:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Why wouldn't it? These are new, usable sources. Whether one thinks we should have bios of sportspeople who meet WP:GNG but not their sport-specific guideline isn't a DRV question. —Cryptic 04:28, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - I just don't understand the logic behind the fact that someone can be non-Wiki-notable for their entire life in their given field (especially a field which is generally covered by sports) but then become notable in that field when passing away. SportingFlyer T·C 04:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - No one is "non-Wiki-notable for life". Failing Wikipedia-notability is not one of the WP:NOT sections. Failing Wikipedia-notability means that evidence is not there to demonstrate notability. Evidence can arise later, and a non-notable person can become notable. So, sure, a non-Wikipedia-notable sportsperson can later cross the line on the basis of some obituaries. Note that these are not family written and paid obituaries, but are new stories, and that the means of death is here the central feature for their Wikipedia-notability. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        An obscure author, say, whose works become the subject of significant critical discussion only after the author's death, may well become notable when s/he was not previously. This is a possibly similar case, SportingFlyer. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 13:25, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        We’d judge Vincent van Gogh non notable at the time of his death. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:59, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        I understand both of those examples, but neither of those examples are athletes. It should be exceptionally rare - not impossible, mind you - for someone not known for anything but being an athlete who wasn't notable during their athletic career to become notable after passing away. SportingFlyer T·C 16:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete/allow recreation. A three-year-old XfD is old enough that I don't think even new users—who might not be familiar with Notability on Wikipedia—should be bound by it, much less an experienced editor. There's a reasonable claim that there's more notability and someone wants to work on it. Having the article content restored so that it can be reused would be better than not having it restored. Alpha3031 (t • c) 03:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't too hot on the first two sources listed, but the NYT's one gets us to the point that we are well past WP:CSD#G4, so yeah, recreate. Not so clear that someone would be crazy to bring to AfD, but certainly overcomes G4. Hobit (talk) 04:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Restore. In the light of new sources, there's no need for us to reexamine the three-year-old AfD.—S Marshall T/C 00:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete / allow recreation - the new sources, in addition to one or two of the sources in the old AfD, combine to pass WP:NCOLLATH for me. Remember that NCOLLATH says that EXAMPLES include, and does not give an exhaustive list. Here the subject has been the subject of non-trivial media coverage in multiple pieces. Ikjbagl (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Allow recreation. The added sources are enough that this is different than when the AfD took place. It may be that another AfD wopuld delete this again, but I suspect not. Obits in major newspapers that are by staff, not paid, are normally significant contributors to notability. If any editor requests it, undelete to draft or user space to allow adding the new refs, or allow a fresh start, but do not undelete to mainspace, nor to draft without a specific request from someone who indicates an intention to work on this. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 13:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As the nominator, I intend to work on it if undeleted to draft. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 18:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.