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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. NW (Talk) 19:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lisle Teens with Character

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Lisle Teens with Character (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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An article about a small, suburban Illinois youth group. No evidence of regional or national notability. Does not meet WP:ORG requirements. Warrah (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete It sounds like a great group, and it certainly gets coverage within its local area in Chicago. The question is whether it meets Wikipedia's standards for notability. If there was a larger "Teens With Character" organization, that would probably pass, although my search of the web suggest that it's something that was started at Lisle and has gone on to inspire one other group at St. Thomas Aquinas church. I'm willing to change my mind if notability can be argued. Mandsford (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and Mandsford--though I'd like to see notability proven rather than argued. ;) Drmies (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this organization. Joe Chill (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This page is not hurting the integrity of Wikipedia. I truly think that Lisle Teens With Character is a notible organization. No material is fabricated, they have members in many different high schools and middle schools. They do work all over the chicagoland area. Lisle Teens with Character is more than a "small, surburban youth group." Lisle Teens with Character is gain more notibility everyday. I thought that was what Wikipedia is all about. you can read things on wikipedia that you can't get in any other online encyclopedia. What makes it so unique is pages like this one. Jhaseltine (talk) 23:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep LTWC has been covered by the media and were recently on NBC5 News. They have also received state recognition for their efforts in being awarded the Governor's Hometown Award in 2006. There is also a larger, national organization called Character Counts! which LTWC is based off of that encourages teens in the right direction and promotes character. LTWC may not be "nationally notable", but it is changing the world the only way the world can be changed: One small act at a time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.252.107 (talk) 01:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete promotional article on local student organization. The Chicago Tribune mention is just in its "local" section, and just a routine mention of an event. "gains notability every day" = not yet notable. DGG ( talk ) 05:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Webster defines "notable" as remarkable or outstanding. It is truly remarkable and outstanding the impact LTWC has on the community. I guess I just don't see all of the potential harm that this page can do. If someone can say a valid reason why this page is bad for wikipedia just speak out because I haven't heard one. Jhaseltine (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I think it sounds like a great organization. It's just that Wikipedia has its own definition of notable (in WP:N) and it's based upon a variety of factors. Some people, places and things are "inherently notable", meaning that they fall into a class of items that are placed in an encyclopedia without having to demonstrate coverage in independent (including non-local) sources. Thus, the articles Lisle, Illinois and Lisle High School are presumed notable without having to justify their existence. Everything else is subject to arguments over what people think Wikipedia's policy is. As for "potential harm" for bending a rule, we also look at the precedent that would be set. If LTWC should have its own article, then should every other service club (and there are, literally, millions of them) in the world have the same right? For example, consider the Shriners Clubs in the Chicago area-- the Shriners Hospital for Children in Chicago provides free orthopaedic care for children, in large part because of the continuing work of the various members of the local groups. And yet the Medinah Shriners (in Addison) wouldn't qualify for their own article by Wikipedia standards. That said, my suggestion would be that you should consider mentioning LTWC within the body of an existing article, such as the one about Lisle or about its high school. The Lisle Teens with Character will continue to do good work, irrespective of whether they have their own article on Wikipedia. Mandsford (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Lisle Teens with Character (LTWC)This group has in fact received local, state and federal accolades. 2003 Awarded Certificate and US Flag from Congress Woman Judy Biggert & the Illinois House of Representatives “For their determination to improve the world around them through positive leadership and a profound demonstration of Patriotism.” 2004 Recipient of the State of Illinois Governor’s Hometown Award for the Village of Lisle. One of five groups that received awards in the entire state for youth involvement. Only project run by teens. 2005 Illinois State Treasurer Judy Barr-Topinka, State of Illinois Certificate of Appreciation, Lisle Teens w/ Character 9/11 Memorial Rally “I commend you on your profound character of patriotism, character of community spirit and character of community service.” 2006 Filmed for Citizenship DVD, PBS national distribution, for the National CHARACTER COUNTS! Organization,2006 Illinois Secretary of State Jessie White- Certificate of appreciation for over 2,000 of community service. 2006 State of Illinois Governor’s Home Town Award, named as one of the top eight projects and as a Governor’s Cup Semi-Finalist. 2007 Daily Herald’s Person of the Year-January 2007 for community leadership. In 2008 S. Thomas the Apostle Parish formed their own group St. Thomas Teens with Character after LTWC. I believe that notability directly correlates to dependability and longevity. LTWC has demonstrated both. Additionally by Wikipedia's own definition of notability "significant coverage" well, there has been significant coverage. Remember this is a grass roots, teen driven teen led, teen mentored group. Trying to re-shape the thinking of adults to include teens as viable contributors to society, community and service. LTWC has received "significant coverage". Laura , IL.
  • Keep This proves that Lisle Teens with Character has recieved local and national notability, and therefore meets the wikipedia organization requirements. I agree with Mandsford that we can't have every small youth group without notability to join wikipedia, but Lisle Teens with Character doesn't fall into this category it's not just a "small, surburban youth group" it has "evidence of regional and national notability," and it fits the requirements of a wikipedia-worthy organization. Jhaseltine (talk) 04:40, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE; this group is a joke and promotes stuck up individuals and promotes better yourself and not working in a group or helping thos earound you. Help those aorund you to better you and your goals only! I was a membe rfor 2 years. David, IL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.6.70 (talk) 17:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in the group (if you even were in the group), but not only is this completly false, has no source of verification, and is slightly off topic of the notability of LTWC, but promoting character and performing community service is NOT at all being "stuck up." Jhaseltine (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Lisle Teens with Character (LTWC)This group has in fact received local, state and federal accolades. 2003 Awarded Certificate and US Flag from Congress Woman Judy Biggert & the Illinois House of Representatives “For their determination to improve the world around them through positive leadership and a profound demonstration of Patriotism.” 2004 Recipient of the State of Illinois Governor’s Hometown Award for the Village of Lisle. One of five groups that received awards in the entire state for youth involvement. Only project run by teens. 2005 Illinois State Treasurer Judy Barr-Topinka, State of Illinois Certificate of Appreciation, Lisle Teens w/ Character 9/11 Memorial Rally “I commend you on your profound character of patriotism, character of community spirit and character of community service.” 2006 Filmed for Citizenship DVD, PBS national distribution, for the National CHARACTER COUNTS! Organization,2006 Illinois Secretary of State Jessie White- Certificate of appreciation for over 2,000 of community service. 2006 State of Illinois Governor’s Home Town Award, named as one of the top eight projects and as a Governor’s Cup Semi-Finalist. 2007 Daily Herald’s Person KEEPof the Year-January 2007 for community leadership. In 2008 S. Thomas the Apostle Parish formed their own group St. Thomas Teens with Character after LTWC. I believe that notability directly correlates to dependability and longevity. LTWC has demonstrated both. Additionally by Wikipedia's own definition of notability "significant coverage" well, there has been significant coverage. Remember this is a grass roots, teen driven teen led, teen mentored group. Trying to re-shape the thinking of adults to include teens as viable contributors to society, community and service. LTWC has received "significant coverage".
  • KEEP Lisle Teens with Character. The members of this group come from several schools and towns around the area, not just from Lisle. They have a great time together and do important work. They are respected and appreciated! The teenagers that I have seen involved with this group, LTWC, truly want to help people. We need more teenagers to get involved rather than take the easy road and say that it is “someone else’s problem”. We need more role models in this country, like these kids, not couch potatoes. This group’s impact is positive and far-reaching. This group helps the homeless, the veteran’s back in the U.S. as well as the soldiers that are, overseas fighting for the United States right now. They have helped feed starving people in other countries and worked at food pantries in the area, They have helped many others that needed help. This group has received accolades from the local media as well as the State of Illinois. I personally have spoken to people in Ohio and Minnesota about this group and they want to know how to get similar groups started in their states. LTWC was Awarded Certificate and US Flag from an Illinois Congressperson & the Illinois House of Representatives “For their determination to improve the world around them through positive leadership and a profound demonstration of Patriotism.” So they have received significant coverage, as Wikpedia requires. With or without Wikpedia I am positive that LTWC will continue to do well and help raise great United States citizens. These teenagers will grow up to be adult citizens that are not afraid to help others nor are they afraid to show their love of the freedom that they have in this country. If you do not keep this group on Wikpedia it might not be as exposed to the people that are looking to do good in this world. This group is notable because it has TEENAGERS that want to do the right thing and help others in the community. Anyone that does not want this group to have the Wikpedia exposure is most likely the type of person that wants to reduce others rather than promote others. These people should get involved in volunteering and maybe they would have a different perspective. Douglas Bradley, Illinois —Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglas Bradley (talk • contribs) 19:37, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The Lisle Teens with Character is a part of something bigger than just service. Its reflective of the changing attitudes of our youth and a renewed interest in the betterment of society, and the media HAS taken notice. When you search "Lisle Teens with Character" in the Daily Herald database, at least 20 articles feature the LTWC or one of its members, a fact that certainly highlights the notability of the LTWC. But media coverage isn't the only way that one should measure its notability. What is truly remarkable about the LTWC is its impact on the community. More and more teenagers throughout DuPage County are finding something positive to do with their time through the LTWC. These teens have contributed thousands of hours of service to their communities. The Character Counts Program has taught kids the fundamentals of character, but the LTWC applies these things to life. I was a teen leader in the LTWC for four years, and I know that I am a changed person because of it. LTWC instilled in me a drive to do something more, to go beyond the status quo and to live my life for others rather than myself. I gained outstanding leadership abilities and found a true confidence with who I am. I may only be one person, but I truly believe that I am representative of many members of LTWC who are being molded into outstanding young men and women. Posting the LTWC on wikipedia as a notable organization would allow others to see the kind of thing that teenagers are doing; these kids aren't just sitting around playing video games, they are doing something with their lives. They are working for others because they care. Matt, IL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.134.208.22 (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep any service group can say they have performed a lot of community service but it take a group completely unique like LTWC to have the notability that we have. Jhaseltine (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

        • This is your fifth keep vote. Once is enough. Neither JHaseltine nor any of the other keep voters have produced any reliable sources for the group's notability, and I would like to point out to them that they are welcome to do so: adding testimony about what the group does is not going to help the group's notability. Drmies (talk) 03:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It seems to me that there is overwhelming sock activity happening here. I don't know if there is a procedure for such a thing, and I trust the closing admin to make the proper call. However, if there can be a speedy closure based on the fact that all the keep voters might well be the same person, and they essentially rehash the same argument, and none of them have produced anything like a reliable source, well, I would be in favor of such a closure. Drmies (talk) 04:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sorry about the multiple "keep"s, i thought you had to put that up every time. and about the "sock activity," I got in contact with some people who know the most about LTWC about this discussion page. Here are the sources for the governor's hometown awards:

-2004 (look at "Character Counts" in catigory V, the "area's youth" is LTWC) http://www.commerce.state.il.us/dceo/Bureaus/Community_Development/Governors+Home+Town+Awards+%28GHTA%29/GHTA_2004winners.htm -2006 (it's on page 11) http://www.commerce.state.il.us/NR/rdonlyres/637A7394-9DA3-4BAF-A223-D9170906E515/0/20061018StatewideGOV2006HomeTownAwards.pdfJhaseltine (talk) 04:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: recieving coverage on NBC news, recognition by our congress people, being featured in a national video on WTTW, and recognized as one of the best community service groups in the state (and the only one of these acclaimed groups to be run by teens) is not what I would call "local" at all. Don't shoot LTWC down without conducting sound research to proove that you're 100% correct. also, we are "local" group, but we are recieving national, state, and local coverage and recognition. this in addition to the fact that many other places are trying to recreate the success that LTWC is having in Lisle make LTWC very notable and worthy to have its own page on Wikipedia. --Jhaseltine (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: User Drmies commented on the fact that I only have one previous post on Wikpedia. That is a true statement. I do not often feel compelled to voice my opinion in a public forum such as this. There are enough people that want to comment on everything that is put out whether they have the background or not. In this case, I feel it is important enough for me to take the time to register and to post my comment that this organization is what is right in the country. As far as being a “sock”, I am not exactly sure what that means but I assume that it implies that it is a ruse. My postings are Douglas Bradley’s postings and not that of anyone else. It should be obvious that when a topic brings people to take action, in a venue that they normally do not participate, that they have a passion for the topic. As I said before Lisle Teens with Character is a great organization that has received notability from several facets within the state of Illinois. They will survive because these TEENAGERS are doing what many adults will not. They are taking action and not just sitting on the sideline complaining or demeaning others. Douglas Bradley, Illinois —Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglas Bradley (talk • contribs) 20:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • One last note I created this article just as a base article to expand upon. If this article passes this stage, then I will make it my mission to improve the article. I will include all of the sources for LTWC's notability, and add more detail. I wasn't aware that it would be nominated for deletion. sorry for the confusion, but I will start working on improvements ASAP. thanks, --Jhaseltine (talk) 04:18, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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