Talk:Steve Canyon

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Image:Steve2 copy.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 05:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair-use rationale provided. --Tenebrae 05:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:SummerOl.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 15:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Snowflower.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:SC background.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The text says that Happy Easter was reportedly a resident of Central City. I don't know where he lived, but I recall encountering him on the streets of both Idaho Springs and Central City on several occasions in the late 1960's and early 1970's. He was a genuinely colorful character. Douglas W. Jones, aka 128.255.45.57 (talk) 16:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did anybody else see that? The "introduction" of Steven Canyon, a large large featured on Antiques Roadshow? It was appraised for $10,000. --98.232.181.201 (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was a long time fan of Steve Canyon strip as the stories not only took place in the present but thanks to dream sequences in the past as well. One of the longer sequences I still remember was Steve Canyon dreaming of being in the Great War. Strangely his knowledge of the future in the story varies; he talks about the Nazis after seeing a Swastika painted on an American plane and yet later has a total non reaction to meeting Adolf Hitler. The stories ends as did many of his dream sequences with someone being shaken awake which was actually Steve being shaken awake in the real world.--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why an editor identified as "User:Adelman" sent me an e-mail about what seems a public matter, especially when User:Adelman doesn't seem to be a registered account, which seems odd, so I'm replying here.

The e-mail states, in part:

Specifically, that Miss Mizzou was patterned after Marilyn Monroe is incorrect. The cartoon character was patterned after Bek Nelson Gordon. Although I did cite personal knowledge, I'm aware of the NOR policy, I also cited a 2005 publication in the Canton Repository that referred to the correct model.

Would you like to discuss this further before I re-do the change on this basis only?

Your comment in un-doing the change was the NOR policy and that IMDB is not a citable reference. Although I included a link to the IMDB article on Bek Nelson Gordon, it doesn't refer to her non-movie work and it was not cited as a reference for the change.

I've got the Canton Repository article on my side (I can also provide studio photographs of Bek Nelson Gordon that would support the position. What evidence do you have that Marylin Monroe was the model?

Now then: The 00:30, 20 September 2010‎ edit by anon IP 198.137.202.68 said in the edit summary: "Source is the 11/21/2005 issue of the Canton Repository article by Gary Brown "200 helped shape Canton" and personal knowledge (model's daughter))."

However, the only thing cited in the article was this: "...Miss Mizzou after Bek Nelson Gordon [cite ^ IMDB: Bek Nelson]"

Now, IMDb, the only thing cited, is disallowed as a reference source, and the anon IP claims "personal knowledge (model's daughter)." So, properly, my edit: "IMDb can't be used for reference, only as EL, & personal-knowledge claims are disallowed under policy of no original research."

"Adelman" asks, "What evidence do you have that Marylin Monroe was the model?" That citation was there the whole time: The reliable-source magazine Pageant vol. 8, #11 (May 1953).

Before any changes or additional claims are made, we need to know exactly what the 11/21/2005 issue of the Canton, Ohio newspaper The Repository and the article by Gary Brown "200 helped shape Canton" says. Is there a link to it? Can a quote from the article be provided so we know what it actually says? This will help balance a contemporaneous claim in a major national magazine with a statement decades later from a small city's newspaper. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:29, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again, an identical edit to that of a person who claims a personal, WP:COI relationship (daughter) with an ostensible model for Miss Mizzou (here) has been made, this time by someone who gives his name as Kenneth Adelman according to his contributions page. This edit replaced a citation from a contemporaneous, 1950s account by a major national magazine, Pageant, with an unquoted claim from an unlinked local newspaper whose source for this claim may be this same person. The three other cite given were a personal blog, and unattributed, unsourced claims by an auction house and by an anonymous list from a comics-collectors group.

The editor refuses to provide a quote from the 2000s local newspaper, or to discuss the issue here. These edits seem to exist to further a personal agenda. I would ask other, disinterested editors to research and discuss this issue. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of introduction, I am also the 198.137.202.68 editor (former IP address of mine). I am not the Kenneth Adelman referred to in a Wikipedia article about the more famous one, but am the Kenneth Adelman referred to in the article on "Streisand effect". I am Bek Stiner's (now Bek Nelson Gordon's) son-in-law and the edits were done in consultation with her daughter (my wife) who has first-hand knowledge of the facts (and a scrapbook supporting them). I'm a frequent contributor to another wiki-like database (OpenStreetMap), but only a minor Wikipedia contributor.

I mistakenly thought my earlier edit was pulled because of a misunderstanding that I was somehow citing IMDB as a source for the claim, when I only intended to provide a link for more information about Bek Stiner. My editor comments described my actual source, the article in Canton Repository, (which, incidentally, at the time was available online for free, but is no longer, and of course, Pageant was never available online). My recent attempt at an edit was an attempt to correct these documentation deficiencies, and I put a lot of time into researching whatever I could on the matter.

In short -- I'm dropping the matter; I'm just not familiar with communicating through the Wikipedia talk interface and not even sure I'm going to get this post right, and just find it too painful a media to conduct a discourse.

Although there is much evidence that Bek Stiner is the one who Miss Mizzou is based on, and only one piece of evidence that it was Marylin Monroe (Pagaent, not exactly high-journalism), this is perhaps a case where the Wikipedia policies result in the wrong factual conclusion. Just to be clear -- I'm not critizing these policies; they are well thought out and appropriate. There is, however, a large body of pro-Stiner evidence, but for one reason or another each individual piece fails a policy test causing it to be disallowed, leaving the one incorrect article to resolve the dispute (Pageant, which incidentally, I still haven't seen a copy of, or even a quote from, and it isn't available online that far back. What does IT say?). It is going to take backing away from the trees to see the forest; although each individual piece might fail a policy test, at some point it becomes hard to ignore that there are so many.

I doubt anyone cares enough to be doing any new research on this that would become citable, and considering that anyone involved is well over 80 years of age, it would be very difficult to conduct any (Monroe dead, Stiner stuttering advanced dementia). Anyone with first-hand knowledge is close to the matter, which fails the COI test; although I am close, I see this as an advantage, and I certainly don't stand to profit from correcting this article.

I'll close with a challenge. If MM and Minton Caniff were ever together, they were certainly photographed together. Can anyone product a photograph of MM with Milton Caniff? With her in a trenchcoat next to a sketch of Miss Mizzou? This publicity photograph from the publisher, found in Bek's scrapbook, would seem to cover it: http://www.adelman.com/miltoncaniff_and_bekstiner.jpg .

Regarding the Canton Resposity article of 11/21/2005, I quote:

• 83. Bek Nelson-Gordon was "Miss Mizzou"

• An actress who graduated from Lincoln High School in the 1940s, she was the woman "Steve Canyon" comic strip artist Milton Caniff picked from a chorus line to be the trench-coated model for Miss Mizzou.

I would also hardly call the Repository a small-town paper, with a staff of 300 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Repository ) nor Canton a small town with a population of over 400,000 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton,_Ohio ).

I've put an electronic copy of the first and relevant pages of the article from the Canton Reposity at http://www.adelman.com/200canton.pdf, but will only leave it there for the duration of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adelman (talk • contribs) 22:31, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your frustration, and even more so your understanding of why the policies are in place.

And honestly, all that was asked for from the beginning was a verbatim quote from the Canton paper, which you provided along with the temporary visual evidence. Now that I've seen it, I'll adjust the article accordingly. Simple as that.

The photo of Caniff and the model, at The Adelman Family Homepage, is marvelous and could certainly be of use in the article. Two issues: Copyright (what is the original source?) and captioning. There's nothing on the image as currently posted that identifies the woman. If that evident publicity photo appears legally somewhere on the web, with a caption, we can link to it as a reference citation.

(For the record, I never said Canton was a small town. I said "local newspaper," as opposed to a national magazine.)

(Also, and this is strictly my guess, the confusion may arise from Marilyn Monroe being the inspiration or the model for the character herself, and Ms. Stiner for her actual look. But as I said, that's simply my theory and we can't put that in the article.)

Thanks for your patience through the process. It ultimately works, the vast majority of the time. Incidentally, I have several of Kitchen Sink Press' Steve Canyon collections; maybe something there can shed more light. With regards, --Tenebrae (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re: the photograph. It was in her scrapbook. As far as her daughter and family is concerned, we waive any rights to the photo and derivative work (scanning it) and consider it in the public domain. The original photographer unknown likely holds the copyright, but I suspect that it has lapsed into the public domain now (photo taken 1952). It could have been a friend of Bek's, but I suspect it was a publicity or press shot of some form. IANAL. If you would like a higher-resolution scan, let me know. I don't know of any place it has been published with caption, but the easiest proof that the picture includes Bek is to go watch a movie she was in (Bell Book and Candle is my favorite).

Hmm. I hadn't thought about "inspiration" vs "model". Perhaps the article should cover both. Adelman (talk) 23:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the information. As you've seen I've tried to balance everything out in the article.

Hmm, I wonder if we could add the image to Wikipedia Commons with a Creative Commons license? I'll ask an admin or two in the next couple of days and see what they think. I'll leave a note on your talk page if I find anything out. Good working with you.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Still have one-too-many "Z"s in Miss Mizzou. Adelman (talk) 03:54, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you want more information about Miss Mizzou, contact Melinda Lockwood at the University of Missouri <lockwoodm@missouri.edu>. She responding to our request for information (or contact me offline at adelman@adelman.com and I'll email you a copy). It includes an interview with Caniff where he says "For some time I had been mulling over a girl character who would be what a Marilyn Monroe type might be like if she had not hit the jackpot in Hollywood. Every college town has girls who live and work on the edge of campus and who are very much a part of the life of the school, but who do not get invited to the fraternity formals. Usually they come up from small towns and often become loyal to the school as the best-heeled alumnae. I decided my gal would be from the University of Missouri, if not of it." This might be the origin of the notion that MM was the inspiration for Miss Mizzou. Bek Stiner was from Canyon and anxious to leave and try a modeling carrier in NY. I believe Caniff discovered her when she was in NY, ironically, before she herself went to Hollywood. Adelman (talk) 04:18, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I'll fix the "zzz"s!

I'm sure you understand that while we can certainly ask a librarian to supply us with a published source, we can't use information gleaned from private e-mails from family members or others. That would constitute original research.

From what you're saying above, Caniff gave an interview somewhere unspecified that does mention Marilyn Monroe as an inspiration for Miss Mizzou. Where was that interview published? Could we get a citation with title, date, publication, author and page number? Everything you're saying seems to jibe with what the article currently says. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:42, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the librarian sent me only one page of what looks like "The Missouri Alumnus" alumnae newsletter, but it doesn't identify date/issue. I'm sure if you contact her she can provide you with more information directly. It doesn't contradict the current wiki article, but gives more insight to exactly how MM inspired the character (he was looking for something that MM was not). Adelman (talk) 04:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since you've been in touch with Melinda already and she knows what you're looking for, it might be more efficient if you wrote to her again rather than my starting from scratch. I promise that whatever pertinent information you find, I'll happily add to the article. I've love to add that Caniff quote — right from the man himself! — if we can source it exactly. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I tracked it down. The article was from the October 1954 issue of the Missouri Alumnus. Adelman (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice research work! Yay! Go for it! Don't worry about any cite formatting or copy-editing things; I can go clean up. The important thing is you have the cite. Wonderful!

BTW, I've just finished reading all six volumes of Library of American Comics' Terry and the Pirates. What a great work of comics scholarship that is. Highly recommended. With regards, --Tenebrae (talk) 15:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, all,

Raven Forward Air Controllers used the Steve Canyon Program to recruit new volunteers to their Air Commando unit during the Vietnam War. I have linked their article to this one. However, I am unsure where/whether/how the Steve Canyon Program and the Ravens can be fitted into this article.

Citation for this is The Ravens by Christopher Robbins, pp. 7 - 9.

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the edition published by Asia Books; 3rd edition (2000), ISBN-10: 9748303411, ISBN-13: 978-9748303413, or what appears to be the self-published Kindle edition? I'd imagine the former would be the better source, given the reasonable hurdles that must be overcome to use self-published sources.

If you could provide a quote from the published source, that would be great. I have to wonder why it takes three pages of the book to verify one sentence. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

---

My humble battered copy is a 1987 paperback by Pocket Books, ISBN 0-671-67316-5. It is obviously not a self-published book.

The description of the Steve Canyon program is on the first pages of the first chapter. It takes some time to actually mention the name Steve Canyon, near the bottom of page 8.

I might add, that in my personal experience, being with the Ravens was a real life Steve Canyon event.

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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