Talk:LGBTQ

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the LGBTQ article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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	LGBTQ was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result October 24, 2008 Good article nominee Listed August 26, 2009 Good article reassessment Kept February 9, 2014 Good article reassessment Kept January 25, 2019 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

Drop the T was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 26 May 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into LGBTQ. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

This  level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Gender studies High‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies articles Sexology and sexuality High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Sociology High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Linguistics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

There is a request, submitted by Landlund (talk), for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "important subject".

This page is not a forum for general discussion about LGBTQ. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about LGBTQ at the Reference desk.

Section sizes Section size for LGBTQ (16 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 6,701 6,701 History of the term 11,112 11,112 Variants 24,312 37,700 Transgender inclusion 1,604 1,604 Intersex inclusion 10,416 10,416 Asexual, aromantic and agender inclusion 1,368 1,368 Criticism of the term 11,553 11,553 Alternative terms 24 20,685 Queer 3,107 3,107 SGM/GSM/GSRM 10,169 10,169 Further umbrella terms 5,251 5,251 Clinical 722 722 MVPFAFF 1,412 1,412 See also 212 212 References 30 30 External links 734 734 Total 88,727 88,727

faq page Frequently asked questions Please read the following FAQs before posting. Q: Why is this article titled LGBTQ and not LGBTQ+/LGBTQIA+? A: Per Wikipedia policy on article titles, we follow the WP:COMMONNAME that reliable sources most commonly use. The current title of LGBTQ followed a long history of move discussions, that eventually led to the current title of LGBTQ after reliable data has shown to have shifted to use LGBTQ over any other variants in reliable sources in the move discussion in August 2024. Eventually in the future, it may be that LGBTQ+ will overtake LGBTQ in reliable sources, but for the time being, this is the reason for the current article title.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: Not moved, 14 February 2018, to LGBTQ, see discussion. Not moved for now, 28 May 2022, to LGBTQ, see discussion. No consensus, 5 June 2023, to LGBTQ, see discussion. Not moved, 20 October 2023, to LGBT (initialism), see discussion. Consensus to move, 14 August 2024, to LGBTQ, see discussion. Withdrawn, 15 September 2024, to LGBT, see discussion. Not moved, 10 October 2024, to LGBTQ+, see discussion.

I am late posting comments for the above closed move review but I wanted to share anyway. Thanks. Bluerasberry (talk) 12:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your video. Some thoughts:

• Even in the move we did discuss adding the + and I think most of us (myself included) would have liked to see it for the same reason you called out on inclusivity. But we also acknowledged that the + is much newer and the data on its usage is still much smaller than the Q, so it was hard to suggest it as a policy based reason, since article titling on en-wiki follows the policies pretty strictly.
• You mentioned there is no article on Queer people, which I find confusing, we do have an article for it and it does talk about a lot of the details of what it defines. Anyone is welcome to add to it of course as you know, but I don't think it's fully accurate to say it isn't discussed in our articles. And as it is understood as an umbrella term that is becoming more broadly used (as the data shows) now than LGBT, it seemed appropriat to expand to it.
• You mentioned UN, which while doesn't have an office exclusive for us, it does advocate and has used the Q, alongside I and + for a long time when advocating for our rights and has a very public policy by the United Nations Secretariat on the UNITED NATIONS SECRETARIAT STRATEGY ON PROTECTION FROM VIOLENCE AND DISCRIMINATION OF LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, TRANSGENDER, INTERSEX AND QUEER (LGBTIQ+) PERSONS.

Overall, I do very much appreciate your thoughts, and as I said above, personally I would love to see the +, but this was discussed in prior years as well and most people argued that the data doesn't support it and unfortunately it's one of those cases where Wikipedia does lag behind until the RS does use the + more than it doesn't, so we can't really lead the charge here without getting accused of WP:RGW, even if sometimes there may be cases such as this where extending it to LGBTQ+ would be explicitly more inclusive. Raladic (talk) 15:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We could choose to diverge from the article for the wikiproject eg naming the wikiproject LGBT+ or LGBTQ+. It's only the mainspace that has to follow policy and RGW so strictly. lizthegrey (talk) 15:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Imho the article and all the categories should speedily be moved back, the discussion above it not large/representative enough for such a massive change in long-standing convention.★Trekker (talk) 08:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have mixed thoughts about renaming LGBT to LGBTQ for different reasons. On one hand, I understand that LGBTQ is more used than LGBT currently as it would be more inclusive towards anyone who are part of the umbrella and with the "studies" that shows that LGBTQ is common than LGBT. But on the other hand, there are some:

• LGBT has a lot of acronyms so reading an article where LGBT and other similar acronyms like LGBTQ, LGBT+, LGBTQ+ etc. Appearing in the same sentence can be confusing to some. Not to mention some Wikipedia pages still uses the four letter acronym such as Portal:LGBT, Timeline of LGBT history, List of LGBT rights activists etc.
• LGBT/LGB has been around longer than other acronyms and almost all of the terms have the same four letters in them. Queer can still be a slur against some people as well.
• As for data and studies for which acronym is more common is not always reliable, for example a quick google search for "LGBT" has around 530,000,000 results while "LGBTQ" has around 383,000,000 results. The Ngram for the terms is not really reliable as both LGBT/LGBTQ in all caps and lgbt/lgbtq in small caps have different results on which term is more commonly used.

Imo, I feel like keeping LGBT as the title is fine the way it is but I also agree with LGBTQ+ being the title would be better if you to be more inclusive. LGBT/LGBTQ+ or anything similar could also work as a title if it were possible. Mangolemonz (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing the two shows that the lowercase forms make up a tiny fraction of all occurrences compared to the uppercase forms, so are probably not significant to the discussion. This Ngrams query by SilverLocust shows all four terms; toggling the "case-insensitive" button (which counts "lgbt" and "LGBT" as a single word) makes no perceptible difference in the data.

Ngrams is a useful proxy for how often a term occurs in reliable sources (published books tend to be somewhat more reliable than random webpages). Google Search, by contrast, is not particularly reliable or useful for this purpose. The number of total results for any search may just be an artefact of their opaque indexing algorithm, and not necessarily representative. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 06:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the video, @Bluerasberry. It's definitely easier to convey nuance in a video than via text, so I think you add a bit more here that is helpful for illustrating where you are coming from.

A few thoughts come to mind:

1. I wouldn't mind more info about queer people in the queer article. Or maybe a separate article altogether. However, I'm also not sure how different the latter would be from a page on LGBT(Q+) people more generally. I guess there is the added addition of people who don't identify as L, G, B, or T, who nevertheless identify as queer (e.g., heterosexual but non-heteronormative people as one example, but also I and A folks). But then that also strengthens the argument that the Q is necessary in LGBTQ, as it ostensibly covers those identities as well. If we need an article on queer people as distinct from LGBT people, then we also need LGBTQ. What RSes do we have on that subject?
2. I still can't wrap my head around why LGBTQ is somehow more exclusive than LGBT. That doesn't really make sense to me. I get your point that adding the Q while not adding other letters may privilege English-language terms favoured by academics, but that's also a problem with the nature of RSes more generally, and we're not here to "right great wrongs".
3. At least in the UK, and I suspect the US, terms like gay and LGBT have been seen as unrepresentative by some groups anyway. The former is especially seen as too focussed on cis white homosexual men. So I actually think LGBTQ is more acceptable for POCs in those places. In non-English-language countries, the issue is largely moot, because they have their own local language terms they can use anyway. That should have no bearing on what English-language Wikipedia uses. Where a specific group uses a specific term to refer to themselves even in English, we can of course respect that, but those would be exceptions rather than a blanket rule.
4. I think the average person probably isn't super consistent with which letters they use anyway. Or at least, they'll be unperturbed by a mix of LGBT, LGBT+, LGBTQ+ and LGBTQ. Most people won't even notice (we as editors might do, but that's presumably part of the motivation for editing).
5. The number of links and articles that need changing shouldn't be a major concern. Otherwise, Wikipedia would never implement widescale changes. Anything that can be done manually can be done manually, but anything left as LGBT will redirect to LGBTQ anyway, so it's not an issue for most users of the website and it's not an urgent task for editors and admins. Any piping that occurs in the meantime is unlikely to have an appreciable effect on the user experience.
6. I fully expect to have the same discussion in a few years when we decide to add the +, and that's okay. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough, and all that. Incremental change is fine, and is preferable to delays. Just think how much time would've been saved if we'd settled this days ago and just got on with it. We can always change things back later on if RSes or other evidence suggests it was the wrong decision.

Lewisguile (talk) 09:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bluerasberry Thank you for your extra dedication of putting in a video and wearing a formal attire for a bunch of Wikipedians.

The other comments have made great points about common name and reliable sources and not censored, but I would like to attempt to address your central point, although I am not well-versed in the topic.

In my opinion, LGBTQ is a word that will stick for a long time as it is unlike LGBT which consistently fell out of favor in the past decade.

Of course, it begs the question why. LGBTQ is arguably a synonym of LGBT+ as the Q is intended to cover all the +. LGBTQ is also seen as more meaningful as the Q which refers to all non-cishet persons is intended to capture the nature of all the +.

It helps to look at the common progression thread of the term, LGB -> LGBT -> LGBTQ -> LGBTQ+ -> LGBTQIA -> LGBTQIA+. Here we see that LGBTQ is intended to recognize the diversity of the community.

As we want to be more inclusive, we start to add more letters, then it gets awkward as it is never enough, we start to add the plus sign, then it gets ambiguous as to how many letters are hidden by the plus sign.

Ultimately we realize the previous LGBTQ has addressed all of these, making it not only the common name, but also the descriptive name. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

•  Discussion ongoing: Rename of WikiProject LGBT studies
  Sincerely, Dilettante 16:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should we unitalicize terms like LGBT, and/or LGBTQ? 213.132.76.9 (talk) 06:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lambda is used for LGBT. It is just the first letter in Greek. The current elongation of syllables has been the subject of derision.

Even if you don't want to change the article title, include a Greek letter lambda as short for LGBT.... Arbeiten8 (talk) 14:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not one of the initialisms, but one of many LGBTQ symbols#Lambda that may be used by the community.

If we were to include it in the lead, we’d need strong RS to support that it is widely used.

I think a better place is to add it to the List of LGBTQ acronyms which documents the many different terms used to refer to the LGBTQ community, or LGBTQ slang. Raladic (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's well placed in the symbols article. I agree with Raladic that we'd need stronger sourcing to mention it here (and I doubt such sourcing exists). I'm not sure it really belongs at the acronyms or slang articles, but that's a discussion for other talk pages. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]