Riku Sayuj's Reviews > The Iliad

The Iliad by Homer
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TROY VI: THE INVENTION OF ACHILLES

“The Classics, it is the Classics!” William Blake is said to have exclaimed, with pointed reference to Homer, “that Desolate Europe with Wars!

Blake's exclamation might not be as atrocious as it sounds at first. There might be some truth to this, a universal truth.

Significantly however, this is not how the ancients understood it. They understood war as the catastrophe that it is.

Strabo, the Roman geographer, talking about the Trojan wars, puts it thus: “For it came about that, on account of the length of the campaign, the Greeks of that time, and the barbarians as well, lost both what they had at home and what they had acquired by the campaign; and so, after the destruction of Troy, not only did the victors turn to piracy because of their poverty, the still more the vanquished who survived the war.”

It is in this spirit that I chose The Iliad as my first read for The World War I centenary read.

However, over the war-hungry centuries throughout the middle ages and right till the World Wars, this sense of the Epic was twisted by manipulating the images of Achilles & Hector - Hector became the great defender of his country and Achilles became the insubordinate soldier/officer - the worst ‘type’, more a cause for the war than even Helen herself. Of course, Achilles’ romance was never fully stripped but Hector gained in prominence throughout as the quintessential Patriot.

Precisely because of this the Blake exclamation might have been more valid than it had a right to be.

This is why there is a need to revisit the original tragic purpose of the Epic - most commentators would say that (as above) this original purpose was against ALL wars. But there is much significance to the fact that the epic celebrates the doomed fight of two extinct peoples.

The Iliad starts on the eve of war and ends on the eve of war. Of a ten year epic war, the poem focuses its attention only on a couple or so of crucial, and in the end inconclusive, weeks (for it does not end with any side victorious but with Hector’s death).

In fact, it opens with both both Hector & Achilles reluctant and extremely ambivalent towards war. And closes with both Hector & Achilles dead - by mutually assured destruction!

In that clash of the Titans, the epic defines itself and creates a lasting prophecy.

However, before we explore that we need to understand Hector & Achilles better and also the Iliad itself.

In Medias Res

The Iliad opens in medias res, as it were, as if the epic-recitation was already on its way and we, the audience, have just joined. It is part of Homer’s genius that he creates a world already in process. The art of Iliad is then the art of the entrance, the players enter from an ongoing world which is fully alive in the myths that surround the epic and the audience.

The poem describes neither the origins nor the end of the war. The epic cuts out only a small sliver of insignificant time of the great battle - and thus focuses the spotlight almost exclusively on Hector & Achilles, narrowing the scope of the poem from a larger conflict between warring peoples to a smaller one between these two individuals, and yet maintaining its cosmic aspirations. So the important question is who are Hector & Achilles and why do these two heroes demand nothing less than the greatest western epic to define and contrast them?

The Long Wait For Achilles

In Iliad, how single-mindedly we are made to focus on Hector, but all the while, the Epic bursts with an absence - that of Achilles!

After the initial skirmish with Agamemnon and the withdrawal that forms the curtain-raiser, Achilles plays no part in the events described in Books 2 through 8; he sits by his ships on the shore, playing his harp, having his fun, waiting for the promised end.

“The man,” says Aristotle in the Politics, “who is incapable of working in common, or who in his self-sufficiency has no need of others, is no part of the community, like a beast, or a god.”

Hector is the most human among the heroes of The Iliad, he is the one we can relate with the most east. The scene where Hector meets Andromache and his infant son is one of the most poignant scenes of the epic and heightened by Homer for maximum dramatic tension.



On the other hand, Achilles is almost non-human, close to a god. But still human, though only through an aspiration that the audience might feel - in identifying with the quest for kleos, translated broadly as “honor”.

‘Zeus-like Achilles’ is the usage sometimes employed by Homer - and this is apt in more ways than the straight-forward fact that he is indeed first among the mortals just as Zeus is first among the gods.

Zeus and the Gods know the future, they know how things are going to unfold.

Among the mortals fighting it out in the plains of Ilium, only Achilles shares this knowledge, and this fore-knowledge is what allows him (in the guise of rage) to stay away from battle, even at the cost of eternal honor. Fore-knowledge is what makes Achilles (who is the most impetuous man alive) wiser than everyone else.

Hector on the other hand takes heed of no omens, or signs, nor consults any astrologer. For him, famously, the only sign required is that his city needed saving - “and that is omen enough for me”, as he declares. He is the rational man. He is the ordinary man. Roused to defense.

But everything Hector believes is false just as everything Achilles knows is true - for all his prowess, Hector is as ordinary a soldier as anyone else (except Achilles), privy to no prophecies, blind to his own fate. Elated, drunk with triumph, Hector allows himself to entertain one impossible dream/notion after other, even to the extent that perhaps Achilles too will fall to him. That he can save Troy all by himself.

Hector & Achilles: The Metamorphosis

Like other ancient epic poems, the Iliad presents its subject clearly from the outset. Indeed, Homer names his focus in its opening word: menin, or “rage.” Specifically, the Iliad concerns itself with the rage of Achilles—how it begins, how it cripples the Achaean army, and how it finally becomes redirected toward the Trojans. But, it also charts the metamorphosis of Achilles from a man who abhors a war that holds no meaning for him to a man who fights for its own sake.

On the other side, it also charts how the civilized Hector, the loving family man and dutiful patriot Hector becomes a savage, driven by the madness of war.

Before that, an interlude.

The Other Life Of Achilles

One of the defining scenes of the Epic is the ‘Embassy Scene’ where a defeated Agamemnon sends Odysseus & co to entreat Achilles to return to the battle. That is when Achilles delivers his famous anti-war speech. This speech of Achilles can be seen as a repudiation of the heroic ideal itself, of kleos - a realization that the life and death dedicated to glory is a game not worth the candle.

The reply is a long, passionate outburst; he pours out all the resentment stored up so long in his heart. He rejects out of hand this embassy and any other that may be sent; he wants to hear no more speeches. Not for Agamemnon nor for the Achaeans either will he fight again. He is going home, with all his men and ships. As for Agamemnon's gifts, “I loathe his gifts!“

This is a crucial point in the epic. Achilles is a killer, the personification of martial violence, but he eulogizes not war but life - “If I voyage back to the fatherland I love, my pride, my glory dies . . . true, but the life that's left me will be long . . . “  (9.502-4)

Hector & Achilles: The Battle Royale

Notwithstanding Achilles’ reluctance and bold affirmations of life, slowly, inevitably, Homer builds the tension and guides us towards the epic clash everybody is waiting for. But though it might seem as preordained, it is useful to question it closely. The confrontation is crucial and deserves very close scrutiny. We must ask ourselves - What brings on this confrontation?

On first glance, it was fate, but if looked at again, we can see that Homer leaves plenty of room for free-will and human agency - Hector had a choice. But not Achilles - instead, Achilles' choice was exercised by Patroclus.

This calls for a significant re-look at the central conflict of the epic: it might not be Hector Vs Achilles!

Patroclus and Hector instead are the real centerpiece of the epic - Achilles being the irresistible force, that is once unleashed unstoppable. It is a no-contest. Hence, the real contest happens before.

This is because, that unleashing depended entirely on Hector and Patroclus - the two heroes who only went into battle when their side was in dire straits - to defend. Both then got caught up in the rage of battle, and despite the best of advice from their closest advisors, got swept up by it and tried to convert defense into annihilation of enemy - pursuing kleos!

It is worth noting the significant parallels between Hector and Patroclus, while between Hector and Achilles it is the contrasts that stand forth.

Hector, instead of just defending his city, surges forth and decides to burn the Achaean ships. Now, the Achaean ships symbolize the future of the Greek race. They constitute the army’s only means of conveying itself home, whether in triumph or defeat. Even if the Achaean army were to lose the war, the ships could bring back survivors; the ships’ destruction, however, would mean the annihilation—or automatic exile—of every last soldier. Homer implies that the mass death of these leaders and role models would have meant the decimation of a civilization.

Which means that the Achaeans cant escape - in effect, Hector, by trying to burn the ships is in effect calling for a fight to the death!

This decision was taken in the face of very strong omens and very good advice:

In the battle at the trench and rampart in Book Twelve, The Trojans Storm the Rampart, Polydamas sees an eagle flying with a snake, which it drops because the snake keeps attacking it; Polydamas decides this is an omen that the Trojans will lose. He tells Hector they must stop, but Hector lashes out that Zeus told him to charge; he accuses Polydamas of being a coward and warns him against trying to convince others to turn back or holding back himself.

Hector is driven on by his success to overstep the bounds clearly marked out for him by Zeus. He hears Polydamas’ threefold warning (yes, there were two other instances too, not addressed here), yet plots the path to his own death and the ruin of those whom he loves.

Thus, sadly, Hector pays no heed and surges forth. Which is the cue for the other patriot to enter the fray - for Patroclus.



And thus Hector’s own madness (going beyond success in defense) in the face of sound advice brought on a crises for Achaeans to which their prime defender and patriot, Patroclus responded - and then paralleling Hector’s own folly, he too succeeded and then went beyond that to his own death. Thus Patroclus too shows that knows no restraint in victory; his friends too warned him in vain, and he paid for it with his life. By this time Hector had no choice, his fate was already sealed. Achilles was about to be unleashed.

The most important moment in Iliad to me was this ‘prior-moment’ - when Hector lost it - when he lost himself to war fury: Hector’s first act of true savagery - towards Patroclus and his dead-body. “lost in folly, Athena had swept away their senses, “ is how Homer describes Hector and his troops at this point of their triumph.

Achilles, Unchained.

Yet, Homer gives Hector one more chance to spurn honor and save himself and diffuse/stall the mighty spirit of Achilles that had been unleashed on the battlegrounds. In his soliloquy before the Scacan gate, when he expects to die by Achilles' hand, he also has his first moment of insight: he sees that he has been wrong, and significantly enough Polydamas and his warnings come back to his mind. But he decides to hold his ground for fear of ridicule, of all things!

So even as all the other Trojans ran inside the impregnable city walls to shelter, Hector waited outside torn between life and honor (contrast this with Achilles who had chosen life over honor, the lyre over the spear, so effortlessly earlier). Hector instead waits until unnerved, until too late. And then the inevitable death comes.



Thus the Rage was unleashed by two men who tried to do more than defend themselves - they tried to win eternal honor or kleos - the result is the unleashing of the fire called Achilles (his rage) which burns itself and everything around it to the ground. What better invocation of what war means?

I ask again, what better book to read for the centenary year for The World War I?

The Last Book

The last words of The Iliad are : “And so the Trojans buried Hector, breaker of horses.”

Thus, fittingly, Homer starts with the Rage of Achilles and ends with the Death of Hector. This is very poetic and poignant, but it is time for more questions:

Again, why start and end on the eve of battle? Because that is the only space for reflection that war allows. Before the madness of the fury of war or of disaster descends like a miasmic cloud. To use Homer’s own phrase, “war gives little breathing-room”.

Thus, we end the Epic just as we began it - in stalemate, with one crucial difference - both sides’ best men are dead. The two men who could have effected a reconciliation , who had a vision beyond war, are dead.

Homer’s Prophecies

It is made very clear in The Iliad that Achilles will die under Trojan roofs and that Hector will find his doom under the shadow of the Achaean ships - or, both are to die in enemy territory.

Though Iliad leaves us with full focus on Hector’s death and funeral, there is another death that was always presaged but left off from the story - That of Achilles’ own. Why?

Achilles' death is left to the audience to imagine, over and over again, in every context as required. The saga of Hector & Achilles, of the doomed-to-die heroes, leaves one death to the imagination and thus effects a very neat prophetic function.

Once Hector committed his folly, once Patroclus rushed to his death, and once Achilles is unleashed, the rest is fixed fate, there is no stopping it. So Homer begins and ends in truce, but with destruction round the corner - as if the cycle was meant to be repeated again and again, stretching backwards and forwards in time - Troy I, Troy II, … to Troy VI, Troy VII, … where does it end?

Homer knows that the threshold is crossed, the end is nigh - even Troy’s destruction is not required to be part of the epic - with Hector’s death, the death of Ilium is nigh too and so is Achilles’ own death and past the myths, the death of the Greek civilization, and maybe of all civilization?

The epic leaves us with the real doomsday just over the horizon, horribly presaged by it, in true prophetic fashion.

The Pity of War

The pity of war is The Iliad’s dominant theme, but it uses themes such as love, ego, honor, fear and friendship to illuminate the motive forces behind war. In another ancient epic, Gilgamesh, the death of a friend prompts a quest which ends in wisdom and an affirmation of life; in The Iliad, the death of the fabled friend leads to a renunciation of wisdom and a quest for death itself! In Gilgamesh, the hero learns the follies of life and rebuilds civilization; in The Iliad, Achilles comes into the epic already armed with this knowledge and moves towards seeking death, choosing to be the destroyer instead of the creator.

The Iliad is an epic of unlearning. It mocks optimistic pretensions. In The Iliad, the participants learn nothing from their ordeal, all the learning is left to the audience.
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Quotes Riku Liked

Homer
“Ah my friend, if you and I could escape this fray and live forever, never a trace of age, immortal, I would never fight on the front lines again or command you to the field where men win fame.”
Homer, The Iliad


Reading Progress

January 17, 2014 – Started Reading
January 17, 2014 – Shelved
January 17, 2014 –
page 200
28.41% "Gore, aplenty:

Down from the car he'd leapt, squaring off, charging in full fury, full face, straight into Agamemnon's spearhead ramming sharp — the rim of the bronze helmet could not hold it, clean through heavy metal and bone the point burst and the brains splattered all inside the casque."
January 17, 2014 –
page 250
35.51% "Ah my friend, if you and I could escape this fray and live forever, never a trace of age, immortal, I would never fight on the front lines again or command you to the field where men win fame."
January 18, 2014 –
page 300
42.61% "Graphic Deaths, aplenty:

Down Alcathous crashed and the point stuck in his heart and the heart in its last throes jerked and shook the lance — the butt-end quivering into the air till suddenly rugged Ares snuffed its fury out, dead still."
January 18, 2014 –
page 400
56.82% "Zeus-like Achilles:

You heart of iron! He was not your father, the horseman Peleus — Thetis was not your mother. Never. The salt gray sunless ocean gave you birth and the towering blank rocks — your temper's so relentless."
January 18, 2014 –
page 420
59.66% "Gore, aplenty (and ever increasing):

Idomeneus skewered Erymas straight through the mouth, the merciless brazen spearpoint raking through, up under the brain to split his glistening skull — teeth shattered out, both eyes brimmed to the lids with a gush of blood and both nostrils spurting, mouth gaping, blowing convulsive sprays of blood and death's dark cloud closed down around his corpse."
January 19, 2014 –
page 500
71.02% "Some truth to the claim that Homer was a bit weak on Anatomy, then? Maybe:

… and Achilles chopped his neck and his sword sent head and helmet flying off together and marrow bubbling up from the clean-cut neckbone."
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: epics
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: translated
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: myth-religion
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: classics
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: r-r-rs
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: reference
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: ww1
January 24, 2014 – Shelved as: war
January 25, 2014 – Finished Reading
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: great-books-quest
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: favorites
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: philosophy
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: spiritual
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: religion
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: epic-stuff
May 14, 2014 – Shelved as: history-civilizations

Comments Showing 1-48 of 48 (48 new)

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Lawyer Just a note...I've heard good things of Stephen Mitchell and his translation of The Iliad. However, I've chosen Fagles for The Iliad, They Odyssey, and The Aeneid. Not suggesting you switch translations, just thought you might do a little comparison reading.

I highly recommend Ransom by David Malouf, a most interesting look at Priam's negotiations with Achilles for the return of Hector's body.


message 2: by Riku (last edited Jan 18, 2014 07:47AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Mike wrote: "Just a note...I've heard good things of Stephen Mitchell and his translation of The Iliad. However, I've chosen Fagles for The Iliad, They Odyssey, and The Aeneid. Not suggesting yo..."

I enjoyed the Fagles Odyssey. I have also enjoyed Mitchell's trans of Gilgamesh. It was a close call, but decided on Fagles for the first reading. I intend to read other translations later on, esp the Chapman one if I can get a copy.

Thanks for the Malouf recco. Will definitely look into it - the ransom is one of the most crucial events in the epic.


message 3: by Sue (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sue Another great review of a classic I want to read. I read it...or part of it...in college but didn't care for it. I think this would be a much better time. The tie-in to The Great War, and all war, well done.


message 4: by Lawyer (last edited Jan 24, 2014 05:55PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lawyer Riku, This is magnificent. Homer captures the essence of war. I am uniquely impressed that you consider this your first read in observance of the Centenary of World War One. For I find no difference in the origin of any war throughout the history of the world. Whatever the origin the results remain the same, don't they?

I find your analysis of the connection between Patroclus and Hector particularly compelling. However, overall, I consider the central theme of "The Iliad" to be the rage of Achilles.

While I agree that Homer instills the opposing parties with a significant deal of free will and the ability to determine their own fates, I also find that the principle parties are the pawns of the Gods. The Gods have their favorites. They choose sides. At times man is nothing more than the playthings of the Gods.

Bargaining with the Gods rarely is a simple quid pro quo. That Thetis bargained with Zeus to make her son immortal, there is little doubt that Zeus knew Thetis could or would not completely immerse Achilles into the River Styx and hence we have come to recognize the Achilles' Heel as that small fault in each of us that leads us to our downfall.

Of course, we do not witness the death of Achilles in "The Illiad." Rather we must wait for the works of Statius to learn of Thetis' bargain with Zeus and his death from less a hero, less a man than Hector, the Champion of Troy.

But it is Homer's purpose we not have that information. You are quite correct. Homer puts us in medias res. It is enough. And quite possibly that is what makes "The Iliad" the superior epic of the Classical World.

Well done, Riku. Damned well done. My sincere thanks as I will continue to give as long as I read your reviews. For you, my friend have royally spoiled me to expect the fineness of each of your writings.

In considering Man's relations with the Gods in both Greek and Roman epics, it seems to me that Man attempts to continually bargain with the Gods, which the Gods may appear to do, but in fact laugh at Man in their pride, their Hubris.

I was the "Classics Scholar" at my University for three years. Perhaps, from my own sense of Hubris, I say that I would have captured the scholarship a fourth year had I not completed my undergraduate studies a semester early.

My professors considered me to be their great classical hope and attempted to persuade me to attend Ole Miss at Oxford, Ms., which was renowned at the time for their classical studies.

I chose not to follow that path. I did not wish to become a Mr. Chips in the latter half of the 20th Century. There have been days that I have regretted my decision. Those days of regret usually occur when I visit the campus of Ole Miss and walk through the halls of the building which still houses those classical studies.

Perhaps I must sound like a braggart. It is not my intention. I part with this information to say that there is value in those things of which you write and you possess an analysis that I find rarely paralleled. Thus, I hope you will continue your studies of the epics with which you regale us of their significance.

My friend, I look for your reviews. I lose myself in my enjoyment of your observations. Never stop writing of these things. To do so would greatly diminish this community of readers.

I do hope you found the Fagles translation to your liking. Mitchell seems to be the man today. However, I've stuck with Fagles from Iliad to Aeneid.


message 5: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 08:06PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj 1. Mike wrote: "While I agree that Homer instills the opposing parties with a significant deal of free will and the ability to determine their own fates, I also find that the principle parties are the pawns of the Gods. The Gods have their favorites. They choose sides. At times man is nothing more than the playthings of the Gods."

While I too agree, we have to acknowledge that Homer keeps it subtle - when gods influence men, they rarely do it straightforwardly. It is mostly 'lifting their spirits' or 'influencing their thought' or 'giving a final push when they waver' - the gods act almost like the super-ego of Freud.

2. Mike wrote: "Well done, Riku. Damned well done. My sincere thanks as I will continue to give as long as I read your reviews. For you, my friend have royally spoiled me to expect the fineness of each of your writings."

Thank you so much, Mike! I put a lot of thought into this review and your appreciation has made my day!


message 6: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 07:36PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj 3. Mike wrote: "Bargaining with the Gods rarely is a simple quid pro quo. That Thetis bargained with Zeus to make her son immortal, there is little doubt that Zeus knew Thetis could or would not completely immerse Achilles into the River Styx and hence we have come to recognize the Achilles' Heel as that small fault in each of us that leads us to our downfall."

That is only one of the many traditional stories of Achilles. I think the prime story is that the son of Thetis was supposed to be someone who will 'be more powerful than his father' - initially Zeus, poseidon etc wooed Thetis but then made her marry a mortal once they came to know of this prophecy. This is important since the important theme is retained - the best of the mortals have to be MORTAL.


4. Mike wrote: "For I find no difference in the origin of any war throughout the history of the world. Whatever the origin the results remain the same, don't they?"

Agreed wholeheartedly. Nothing much changes, ever. The ancients seems to have accepted this fact. If we think about it, most of out modern 'epics' are also about war and strikes the same chord.

The exceptions are epics like the Aeneid & Gilgamesh that is about restoration - depends a lot on the period in history but I think these two themes are the fundamental 'epic' themes of the human condition.

... I could write an entire article on this, I have made extensive notes on the connections because I was reading Gilgamesh and Iliad almost in parallel - I had to resist the temptation to cram this review with too many comparisons.


message 7: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 08:08PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj 5. Mike wrote: "I find your analysis of the connection between Patroclus and Hector particularly compelling. However, overall, I consider the central theme of "The Iliad" to be the rage of Achilles."

Again, I agree. And you will find that I have not taken away from it, but only tried to dig deeper into the origins and continuation of that rage, especially when the rage turns outwards (again a Freud connection - the death instinct finally turning outwards)

6. Mike wrote: "hence we have come to recognize the Achilles' Heel as that small fault in each of us that leads us to our downfall."

I feel that Homer left this magical tale out to give more focus on the even bigger failing that is VITAL in a war - MORTALITY itself.

7. Mike wrote: "I do hope you found the Fagles translation to your liking. Mitchell seems to be the man today. However, I've stuck with Fagles from Iliad to Aeneid. "

After you recommended Mitchell, I had a look at it. There is a reason he is the man today - he makes the epic much more accessible. But also adopts a much freer translation process. I think that would take away from the many subtle hints the text leaves us. Fagles has done a very literal translation and I think that is valuable for a first read.

I will try the Fitzgerald trans when I read it again and only then pick up the Mitchell one. And, perhaps one day a parallel text and try to get the words in original!!

8. Mike wrote: "Perhaps I must sound like a braggart. It is not my intention. I part with this information to say that there is value in those things of which you write and you possess an analysis that I find rarely paralleled."

Not at all, Mike! I am thrilled that you, with your experience and scholarship, find even bits of my review of interest enough to comment so insightfully. This comment has helped me flesh out my thoughts even more.

I need to also assure you here that I have thought through the many ways in which Iliad could be analyzed - especially the ones focusing on 'rage' and 'reconciliation' but decided I wanted to present here a slightly different interpretation. Otherwise there would be no incentive for scholars like you to read it!

[ P.S. Sorry I had to split my replies - there was much to think about in your comment! I have tried to make it easier for you by numbering the points I am addressing... ]


message 8: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 07:39PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Sue wrote: "Another great review of a classic I want to read. I read it...or part of it...in college but didn't care for it. I think this would be a much better time. The tie-in to The Great War, and all war, ..."

Thanks, Sue! I hope you do get around to it soon. Would love to discuss more.

I also hope you have been lucky enough to have not watched the movie! I had never realized how thoroughly Hollywood had mangled the epic.


Riku Sayuj Sue wrote: "Another great review of a classic I want to read. I read it...or part of it...in college but didn't care for it. I think this would be a much better time. The tie-in to The Great War, and all war, ..."

I just noticed the 2 stars! I think I had a heart attack!


message 10: by Sue (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sue That rating is one that I applied when I first joined GR. I read The Iliad over 40years ago so the rating was a memory impression. Perhaps I would have been better to have marked it read. I only recall negative feelings but I am a different person now and definitely a different reader. Perhaps I will get rid of that rating since it is undoubtedly misleading.

Feel good that you have added to my wish to read this again.


message 11: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 08:13PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Sue wrote: "That rating is one that I applied when I first joined GR. I read The Iliad over 40years ago so the rating was a memory impression. Perhaps I would have been better to have marked it read. I only re..."

Could have been a visceral reaction that stayed in the memory (see my updates section for elucidation!). Understandable I guess. As I said, I really hope you do read it (again). Will look forward to it!


Lawyer Riku wrote: "[ P.S. Sorry I had to split my replies - there was much to think about in your comment! I have tried to make it easier for you by numbering the points I am addressing... ] "

*AHEM* I appreciate your making it easier for me by numbering the points you were addressing. *Laughing* While fitting the definition of a senior citizen, I still have my sight, and most of my faculties are intact. Kindliness to the elderly is certainly a laudable thing. It is generally lacking in the States. I appreciate your kindness. And, by all means do not think I am being sarcastic. I quite enjoyed your comment.


message 13: by Michael (last edited Jan 24, 2014 08:45PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Michael I agree with Mike on the outstanding writing in your review, though as a more naïve reader. Your whole trajectory was exciting for me. All the rewarding insights I might have gained if I hadn't been forced to read it from day one of my one language of high school, Ancient Greek. Reading about one page a day took something away from the big picture.

The connection you made to World War 1 is intriguing to me. How much of the link lies in the insanity, stupidity, and in the tragedy that everyone loses? Having recently read Tuchman's "The Guns of August", I got the feeling of both a Greek tragedy and a tinderbox of defensive alliances in crossbred monarchies that speaks of inevitability. I feel I have to see what threads she pulls out for details of the connection between Troy and modern wars in her "March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam."


message 14: by Gregsamsa (new)

Gregsamsa WOW. Thank you for this analysis ("review" won't do). Let me second everything Mike said about it and--while I'm at it--thank him too for an enlightening discussion. Far better than any number of "likes," the discussion prompted by a review is the true measure of its quality.

When I saw that you had reviewed this, I thought "Oh yeah! That! How could I not have rated it yet?" And then when I read your review, it made it really clear to me that I don't remember that book nearly well enough to rate it, or even to claim it as read! I had forgotten about Patroclus entirely. That's a little embarrassing, but it's a common characteristic among things I read in school under a deadline. Thanks for the refresher and a really interesting exploration of those ironies, as well as the relevance to modern war. I look forward to your work on WWI. Bravo, dude.


message 15: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Michael wrote: "I agree with Mike on the outstanding writing in your review, though as a more naïve reader. Your whole trajectory was exciting for me. All the rewarding insights I might have gained if I hadn't b..."

Thank you so much, Michael! Even though you have made me extremely jealous of your high school reading habits.


Michael wrote: "The connection you made to World War 1 is intriguing to me. How much of the link lies in the insanity, stupidity, and in the tragedy that everyone loses? Having recently read Tuchman's "The Guns of August", I got the feeling of both a Greek tragedy and a tinderbox of defensive alliances in crossbred monarchies that speaks of inevitability. I feel I have to see what threads she pulls out for details of the connection between Troy and modern wars in her "March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam." ."


As you put it, much of the link indeed lies in the insanity, stupidity, and in the tragedy that everyone loses, which is brought out in the Trojan Cycle as much as the modern WW cycle.

A difference from our modern analyses of war is that Homer/ancients had a simpler and hence profounder view of war - focusing on death. This must have made it easier to convey the horrors. In epic times, the death of the hero was linked so closely with the death of the country/kingship that Homer did not really have to go into details on the war's own consequences.

As for Tuchman, I have read March of Folly, but not The Guns. I was not overwhelmed by The March of Folly, the connections are not really addressed, instead it focuses on an underlying theme of folly, which was too obvious for my liking. Tuchman is always worth a read, and I will look forward to seeing how you take to it.


message 16: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Mike wrote: "Riku wrote: "[ P.S. Sorry I had to split my replies - there was much to think about in your comment! I have tried to make it easier for you by numbering the points I am addressing... ] "

*AHEM* I..."


I did not mean it like that. Readers like you are superheroes to me, wouldn't think of imagining disabilities.

I just wanted to make it easier for you to pick out which thoughts I was addressing where since I didn't follow the order of your own comment.


message 17: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 09:38PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Gregsamsa wrote: "WOW. Thank you for this analysis ("review" won't do). Let me second everything Mike said about it and--while I'm at it--thank him too for an enlightening discussion. Far better than any number o..."

The most important positive I take out of your non-remembrance of poor Patroclus is that then you have not seen the movie! There is much hope, Greg.

btw, there is much to talk about Patroclus. Homer might have invented him from folk myths - folk stories revel in 'the inseparable friend' archetype. Homer used that to full effect.

'Patroclus' could well be an inversion of 'Cleopatra', another folk hero invoked in one of the embedded-myths inside the epic - who too serves the same function as P to another hero (I forget the name, do let me know in case I should hunt it out), who forged a different path from Achilles - which ended well, crucially.

So Homer makes it clear that Patroclus DID NOT follow his supposed role and brought destruction on Achilles. He was supposed to be the advisor, not the instigator!

Gregsamsa wrote: "it's a common characteristic among things I read in school under a deadline. "

I am really envious that you guys got to read all this in school! I wish I had too.

Thanks too, of course!


message 18: by Praj (new) - rated it 4 stars

Praj The Iliad is an epic of unlearning. It mocks optimistic pretensions. In The Iliad, the participants learn nothing from their ordeal, all the learning is left to the audience.

An absolute gem of statement, Riku. Your words just said the obvious.Brilliant as always!


message 19: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Praj wrote: "The Iliad is an epic of unlearning. It mocks optimistic pretensions. In The Iliad, the participants learn nothing from their ordeal, all the learning is left to the audience.

An absolute gem of st..."


Thanks, Praj! glad you liked it.


message 20: by Gregsamsa (new)

Gregsamsa Good eye, Praj! That insight stood out to me as well, but after reading the rest of the review and then the discussion with Mike, I forgot!


message 21: by Riku (last edited Jan 24, 2014 11:14PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Gregsamsa wrote: "Good eye, Praj! That insight stood out to me as well, but after reading the rest of the review and then the discussion with Mike, I forgot!"

Thanks, Greg. It was primarily based on my reading of Gilgamesh and the contrasts with the Iliad that I arrived at that statement... as I mentioned in an earlier comment, reading these two epics in parallel has set me thinking on what historical preoccupations of any given age drive these massive projects.

They have to be the distillations of collective wisdom, and that usually depends on their biggest worry - which could be put into two broad categories: 1. of impending collapse or 2. of sustained restoration. We are now in the impending collapse phase I guess...


message 22: by Lilo (new) - added it

Lilo Sue wrote: "That rating is one that I applied when I first joined GR. I read The Iliad over 40years ago so the rating was a memory impression. Perhaps I would have been better to have marked it read. I only re..."

I am glad I am not the only one who felt compelled to rate books, which had been read long ago and were hardly remembered, when I first joined Goodreads. Once I find time, I'll go through all these ratings and adjust or remove them, for some are probably undeserved low ratings, while others are most likely undeserved high ratings.



message 23: by Lilo (new) - added it

Lilo @ Riku: Reading your reviews, I always get the feeling I am getting a university education. I assume that few history/literature/philosophy students will remember as much or have even understood as much as you say in your reviews of the old classics.

Btw, I have already purchased "The Guns of August", and this book will be one of my next reads.


message 24: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Lilo wrote: "@ Riku: Reading your reviews, I always get the feeling I am getting a university education. I assume that few history/literature/philosophy students will remember as much or have even understood as..."

Thank you so much, Lilo! You always have such really kind words. It is an encouragement to persist.

I hope you like Guns of August. I am not yet decided on whether I want to read it.


message 25: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Lilo wrote: "Sue wrote: "That rating is one that I applied when I first joined GR. I read The Iliad over 40years ago so the rating was a memory impression. Perhaps I would have been better to have marked it rea..."

I have to do that sometime too... there are some embarrassing ratings lying around.


message 26: by Maitrey (new)

Maitrey Whoa! What an excellent review.

My personal suggestion to read to commemorate the centenary of the Great War would beThe Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined (I assure it has nothing to do with my reading it presently).


Lawyer Riku wrote: "Mike wrote: "Riku wrote: "[ P.S. Sorry I had to split my replies - there was much to think about in your comment! I have tried to make it easier for you by numbering the points I am addressing... ]..."

Riku, please do not think I was offended. I wasn't in the slightest. My comment was made out of a sense of humor. Perhaps I was too subtle in my comment. And, you, Sir, are a super hero to me. As Gregsama said, the quality of a review might possibly be measured in the discussion it produces. You possess the gift to bring about discussion. You certainly do that for me. It will be my habit to search out your reviews because your astute observations get the little grey cells firing in my mind. Would it not be a dreary world if we merely observed our physical surroundings and recorded them with the "humanity" of a digital camera?


message 28: by Riku (last edited Jan 26, 2014 11:20AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Maitrey wrote: "Whoa! What an excellent review.

My personal suggestion to read to commemorate the centenary of the Great War would be The Better Angels of Our Nature


have read it - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

My discussion with fellow goodreaders post my reading has convinced me that it is a very conservative work and hence not exactly anti-war, despite the hopeful title.

(Also, not a particularly original work, Pinker just cherry picks ideas of major sociologists.)


message 29: by Riku (last edited Jan 26, 2014 11:21AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Mike wrote: "Riku wrote: "Mike wrote: "Riku wrote: "[ P.S. Sorry I had to split my replies - there was much to think about in your comment! I have tried to make it easier for you by numbering the points I am ad..."

Mike, if an *AHEM* and *laughing* are too subtle as hints for me, I should hang up my boots and log off right now! I just wanted to clarify that I did not mean what you might have thought, even where no offense was taken.

Anyway, I don't know if you had a chance to look at my too-elaborate replies, but I was hoping you would set me straight if I am too off anywhere.


Lawyer Riku wrote: "Mike wrote: "Riku wrote: "Mike wrote: "Riku wrote: "[ P.S. Sorry I had to split my replies - there was much to think about in your comment! I have tried to make it easier for you by numbering the p..."

*chuckle* Well, there are a few. However, I consider those matters so minuscule in significance that they bear no further elaboration. We could discuss the various myths regarding Achilles, the nature of Thetis' negotiations with Zeus, among other things.

One of the remarkable aspects of your review is clearly explaining to the reader that Homer having placed us on the shores of Troy after the passage of ten years is a point that is often forgotten.

Also significant in your review is that we do not witness the death of Achilles in [book:The Iliad|1371]. When I first took my course on "The Greek Epics," taught by an extraordinary professor, Dr. Charles D. Perry, I was shocked to learn of the in medias res nature of the epic and that we did not witness Achilles' demise.

I mentioned the work of Statius. However, I have been amazed at the manner in which Achilles and his story have been woven through the works of the Ancient Greeks. I find the Achilleis by Aeschylusfascinating and would love to see your take on that.

Although I am aware we are both involved in multiple reads and groups, perhaps at some point, hopefully sooner than later, we might enjoy Aeschylus together to continue our discussion of Achilles in love and war.

Cheers!


message 31: by Riku (last edited Jan 26, 2014 07:53PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Mike wrote: "We could discuss the various myths regarding Achilles, the nature of Thetis' negotiations with Zeus, among other things."

Thanks, Mike. I had gone through the various Achilles myths to get a fix on which were the ones Homer alluded to most. Not easy, but I decided to keep the prophesy about Thetis' son and the resultant marriage with a mortal as an important one during my reading... because that marriage is something that ripples throughout the epic - the judgement of paris also follows directly from that fateful wedding.

I have been trying to figure out why that one wedding was the cause of an entire war in someways.. quite fascinating! (could it be a hint at some kind of inversion of natural order - a mortal marrying an immortal - some of the myths allude to it being a rape as well!)

I would like to be reading Aeschylus soon. Would you recommend a direct read or should I read some commentary first? In case you wish to start, do let me know - game anytime! will be fun to read together!


message 32: by mark (new)

mark monday epic review! of an epic!


message 33: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj mark wrote: "epic review! of an epic!"

Thanks, Mark! Hope you enjoyed it.


message 34: by mark (last edited Jan 30, 2014 09:44PM) (new)

mark monday I did! the Iliad was a childhood favorite and reading your review brought me back to that early pleasure. although honestly I had to read it side-by-side with a cliff's notes just to really understand what was going on half the time. but hey, I was 14, so I feel no guilt.


message 35: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj mark wrote: "I did! the Iliad was a childhood favorite and reading your review brought me back to that early pleasure. although honestly I had to read it side-by-side with a cliff's notes just to really underst..."

So glad to know that. I have to mention again that you guys were really lucky to be asked to read epics in school! Which translation did you se back then? (or original Greek??)


message 36: by mark (new)

mark monday I don't remember, but definitely not the original greek!

but I still have the book, let me go check and see...


message 37: by mark (new)

mark monday W.H.D. Rouse. published by Mentor Books.


message 38: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj mark wrote: "W.H.D. Rouse. published by Mentor Books."

Wow! that was fast. You must be supremely organized!

The Rouse translation must be a quality one. I have seen a couple of his Plato translations and they were really good.


message 39: by mark (new)

mark monday I am a Virgo. astrology is true! sometimes.


message 40: by Saroopkishan (new) - added it

Saroopkishan @ Riku
Which translation did you read? Rather, which one would you recommend?


message 41: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj SaroopKishan wrote: "@ Riku
Which translation did you read? Rather, which one would you recommend?"


In retrospect, Fagles is the one I will always recommend to a new reader. Sorry for the very very late comment. But time is not of the essence when it comes to the classics :)


message 42: by Diane (new)

Diane Love your review. Now I understand the things that bothered me in the Iliad. For example, I understand why I related to Hector more than I related to Achilles, why Achilles anti-war speech troubled me (was very much unexpected), and why Hector vs Patroclus is the key to understand this story.
I also liked your comparison of Gilgamesh-Enkidu and Achilles-Patroclus, how Gilgamesh's path is towards learning while Achilles is unlearning. I found The Iliad very violent, graphic, but after reading your analysis, I thing I might just understand why it is so.: it's not a glorification of war, war heroes, who kills the most, which nation is stronger, etc. . It's more like a warning against the path to war and that point of non-return in a conflict. Now I can picture Homer singing it, understand why it so popular with Greeks. Really, great review


message 43: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Diane wrote: "Love your review. Now I understand the things that bothered me in the Iliad. For example, I understand why I related to Hector more than I related to Achilles, why Achilles anti-war speech troubled..."

Thanks, Diane! Your comment is a great summary of the review as well :) Glad you enjoyed it


message 44: by Tg (new)

Tg Thanks for your interpretations--I choose to read the classics as symbols of battles with Human Demons like--Misery, Greed, Lust, Anger, Envy, and covetousness---- "It is Virtue alone which elevates a man and raises him Superior to what mortals hold dear " Seneca "Epistles"


message 45: by Dorum (last edited Dec 09, 2019 02:13AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dorum You are incorrect in the final comments of the assessment. At least ONE person learns. That person is Achilles.

Achilles begins with an irredeemable rage against Agamemnon. There are about 3 times when conflictual situations appear and appeasement is refused.

The first time is the struggle between Agamemnon and Achilles. They both refuse to give way. This leads to death and destruction for all greeks.

The second time is when Achilles refuses to bargain with Hector. "here can be no covenants between men and lions!!!". He is actually becoming an animal. This is obviously someone you don't want to freaking mess with. He actually rejects his human nature.

But the fact is that even going that deep doesn't provide atonement. The THIRD time is when Priam comes for the body of Hector. At this point, Achilles finally gives in, and the epic finishes.

This is the journey of a god becoming a man. Achilles learns what humanity is all about. And I think this is the point of the Iliad. The high cost of rage, the meaning of being human, etc.


message 46: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Dorum wrote: "You are incorrect in the final comments of the assessment. At least ONE person learns. That person is Achilles.

Achilles begins with an irredeemable rage against Agamemnon. There are about 3 times..."


It is a great perspective to break it down into these three encounters. And yes, I love this take on it as well. Thanks!

Of course, my comments come from the fact that Homer is also working in the context of all the other myths and stories he can evoke in his audience. The epic ends, but the story and the war clearly continue in the audience's minds. Achilles still marches towards the destruction of a civilization and his own death...


message 47: by Dorum (last edited Dec 09, 2019 11:45PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dorum Riku wrote: "Of course, my comments come from the fact that Homer is also working in the context of all the other myths and stories he can evoke in his audience. The epic ends, but the story and the war clearly continue in the audience's minds. Achilles still marches towards the destruction of a civilization and his own death.."

You must not place our own view on war and death in the ancient view on war and death.

What I am trying to say is that for these people, death was not the tragedy and the evil that is for us. Otherwise, Homer would not relish the brutality of the war. It gets him off!

However, some of the ideas which horrify are Homer are related for example to rites and proper burial and so on. You can feel the disgust of Homer when he discuss about bodies left unburried for example. Nobody should suffer this. So one can get an inkling as to how these people's values worked.

The purpose of the Iliad was actually to admire and imitate Achilles, and it was NOT some anti-war epic. Honestly, I think Homer actually tries to explain what a perfect warrior is. And what honorable fight looks like. Not some anti-war epic by any means. There is a reason why it is said that Alexander the Great strived to imitate Achilles.

So saying that he didn't learn anything because he didn't learn that "dying is bad" (which from Homer's POV is NOT) is somewhat wrong. What he learned is that "dishonoring your enemy's corpse is ignoble". It is scathing.

For Homer, the sack of Troy was a noble thing. Don't confuse him with Euripides!


message 48: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Riku wrote: "Sue wrote: "Another great review of a classic I want to read. I read it...or part of it...in college but didn't care for it. I think this would be a much better time. The tie-in to The Great War, a..."

Sue, I just saw the five stars!


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