Michael Perkins's Reviews > Stoner
Stoner
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I re-read Stoner and here are some of my impressions the second time around.
Much of the book is telling not showing. In the first 20% of the book Stoner hardly says anything but "yes, sir" and "no, sir." Instead the reader gets this extended background article on Stoner, like a long CV. The author also inserts history excerpts here and there, for example about the stoicism of the Romans, that sound as if they're text grabs from Wikipedia.
Here's a sample of a Stoner interaction....
"William Stoner realized that for several moments he had been holding his breath. He expelled it gently, minutely aware of his clothing moving upon his body as his breath went out of his lungs. . . . Light slanted from the windows and settled upon the faces of his fellow students, so that the illumination seemed to come from within them and go out against a dimness; a student blinked, and a thin shadow fell upon a cheek whose down had caught the sunlight. Stoner became aware that his fingers were unclenching their hard grip on his desk-top. He turned his hands about under his gaze, marveling at their brownness, at the intricate way the nails fit into his blunt finger-ends; he thought he could feel the blood flowing invisibly through the tiny veins and arteries, throbbing delicately and precariously from his fingertips through his body.
Sloane was speaking again. “What does he say to you, Mr. Stoner? What does his sonnet mean?”
Stoner’s eyes lifted slowly and reluctantly. “It means,” he said, and with a small movement raised his hands up toward the air; he felt his eyes glaze over as they sought the figure of Archer Sloane. “It means,” he said again, and could not finish what he had begun to say."
This moment is the closest Stoner ever comes to literary criticism in the entire book; not only does he not say anything about the sonnet, he isn’t even thinking about it.
I also find the author's descriptive style very cliched, the "cracked hands" of his father farmer and so on. There are whole passages like this I could paste in.
At one point, one of Stoner's colleagues goes into a rant about how no one in the cruel world cares about literature and so they are all martyrs to a beautiful cause that is doomed to failure. This gives the sense that bibliophiles are somehow a misunderstood minority. I don't feel that way, but perhaps some readers do. And I do think the author expected readers to sympathize with Stoner, no matter his faults and some of his bad behavior.
Meanwhile, attempts to compare the writing in this book to Nabokov or Proust don't work, IMHO.
==========
Astute review of Stoner that goes into more detail...
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
==============
Another interesting review....
"Williams’s cultural revival has coincided, not surprisingly, with the demand that art be relatable, allowing the audience to easily fit themselves in. But to be relatable, art must also be incurious, not really interested in the mechanisms of why people are what they are, the texture of their lives, or the objects around them. To be interested in these things is to generate friction between the reader and the text, or at least to elude easy points of identification."
This is the opposite of Proust, who is intensely interested in and perceptive of the world around him, the people he encounters, the beauty of the arts. Life is endlessly fascinating. All described in beautiful prose.
https://thebaffler.com/latest/the-pup...
Much of the book is telling not showing. In the first 20% of the book Stoner hardly says anything but "yes, sir" and "no, sir." Instead the reader gets this extended background article on Stoner, like a long CV. The author also inserts history excerpts here and there, for example about the stoicism of the Romans, that sound as if they're text grabs from Wikipedia.
Here's a sample of a Stoner interaction....
"William Stoner realized that for several moments he had been holding his breath. He expelled it gently, minutely aware of his clothing moving upon his body as his breath went out of his lungs. . . . Light slanted from the windows and settled upon the faces of his fellow students, so that the illumination seemed to come from within them and go out against a dimness; a student blinked, and a thin shadow fell upon a cheek whose down had caught the sunlight. Stoner became aware that his fingers were unclenching their hard grip on his desk-top. He turned his hands about under his gaze, marveling at their brownness, at the intricate way the nails fit into his blunt finger-ends; he thought he could feel the blood flowing invisibly through the tiny veins and arteries, throbbing delicately and precariously from his fingertips through his body.
Sloane was speaking again. “What does he say to you, Mr. Stoner? What does his sonnet mean?”
Stoner’s eyes lifted slowly and reluctantly. “It means,” he said, and with a small movement raised his hands up toward the air; he felt his eyes glaze over as they sought the figure of Archer Sloane. “It means,” he said again, and could not finish what he had begun to say."
This moment is the closest Stoner ever comes to literary criticism in the entire book; not only does he not say anything about the sonnet, he isn’t even thinking about it.
I also find the author's descriptive style very cliched, the "cracked hands" of his father farmer and so on. There are whole passages like this I could paste in.
At one point, one of Stoner's colleagues goes into a rant about how no one in the cruel world cares about literature and so they are all martyrs to a beautiful cause that is doomed to failure. This gives the sense that bibliophiles are somehow a misunderstood minority. I don't feel that way, but perhaps some readers do. And I do think the author expected readers to sympathize with Stoner, no matter his faults and some of his bad behavior.
Meanwhile, attempts to compare the writing in this book to Nabokov or Proust don't work, IMHO.
==========
Astute review of Stoner that goes into more detail...
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
==============
Another interesting review....
"Williams’s cultural revival has coincided, not surprisingly, with the demand that art be relatable, allowing the audience to easily fit themselves in. But to be relatable, art must also be incurious, not really interested in the mechanisms of why people are what they are, the texture of their lives, or the objects around them. To be interested in these things is to generate friction between the reader and the text, or at least to elude easy points of identification."
This is the opposite of Proust, who is intensely interested in and perceptive of the world around him, the people he encounters, the beauty of the arts. Life is endlessly fascinating. All described in beautiful prose.
https://thebaffler.com/latest/the-pup...
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Cecily
(last edited Jan 03, 2020 12:46PM)
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rated it 5 stars
Jan 03, 2020 12:44PM
A few years ago, when I fell in love with this book, GR was swamped with passionate reviews. I guess the pendulum has, inevitably, swung, as now I'm mainly seeing negative ones. I must pluck up my courage to read your links. Intelligent disagreement is usually good...
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1. theestablishment.co: No, of course it's not the perfect novel, and the issues of "cripples", gay people, marital rape, and so on are not defensible in my place and time. But they felt plausible in the novel, and trying to understand such things can make it easier to confront them. Perhaps.
And yes, white male authors are lauded far more than ones by women and people of colour, but I don't think that's a reason to criticise an individual book by a white man.
2. bookandfilmglobe.com: I think she's right about why those who love and admire the book do so.
3. thebaffler.com: I've read all Williams novels, including the disowned early one which this article focuses on, but I don't think they're all misogynistic, even if the characters often are.
I note that none of the articles mention Augustus, which I think is his best book, and shows deep and gentle understanding of women - in a very misogynistic and hierarchical society.
Anyway, thanks for an interesting read.
And yes, white male authors are lauded far more than ones by women and people of colour, but I don't think that's a reason to criticise an individual book by a white man.
2. bookandfilmglobe.com: I think she's right about why those who love and admire the book do so.
3. thebaffler.com: I've read all Williams novels, including the disowned early one which this article focuses on, but I don't think they're all misogynistic, even if the characters often are.
I note that none of the articles mention Augustus, which I think is his best book, and shows deep and gentle understanding of women - in a very misogynistic and hierarchical society.
Anyway, thanks for an interesting read.
I do like Augustus and read it a long time ago without knowing anything about the author. I haven't read Butcher's Crossing.
My critique above is about Stoner. Perhaps before #MeToo some of these actions were shrugged off, but as modern readers we are right to take issue with violence against women, which is what happens in Stoner. Also, the depiction of Edith as a shrew. It is misogynistic.
I know my share of oft-divorced men and they always blame the wives when I know full well it was their irresponsibility and sometimes physical abuse that ended the marriages. (Not to mention cheating on them).
My critique above is about Stoner. Perhaps before #MeToo some of these actions were shrugged off, but as modern readers we are right to take issue with violence against women, which is what happens in Stoner. Also, the depiction of Edith as a shrew. It is misogynistic.
I know my share of oft-divorced men and they always blame the wives when I know full well it was their irresponsibility and sometimes physical abuse that ended the marriages. (Not to mention cheating on them).
I think readers see Edith through Stoner's uncomprehending eyes. He never loved her, has no idea what's "wrong" with her (and Williams doesn't exactly shout it from the rooftops), and makes no attempt to understand or help her.
I think it's important to distinguish between bad views, actions, and inactions portrayed in a book, and whether the book itself should be dismissed as condoning those views and acts. (I realise you know the difference, but I'm not sure all the critics make that clear.)
I think it's important to distinguish between bad views, actions, and inactions portrayed in a book, and whether the book itself should be dismissed as condoning those views and acts. (I realise you know the difference, but I'm not sure all the critics make that clear.)
I see what you are saying, Cecily. An example that quickly comes to mind for me is Middlemarch.
But I confess I suspect my gender when it comes to this book. From the reviews of Stoner I've read on GR, I see a heavy identification of male readers with the main character. I'm not saying all of these reviewers are misogynist, per se, but perhaps too ready to ignore this fault of the main character.
Have you read "Catch and Kill"? This problem runs very deep. It's not something that conveniently divides on party lines, but is connected with men in power who wield it to assault women and destroy their careers if they don't succumb.
But I confess I suspect my gender when it comes to this book. From the reviews of Stoner I've read on GR, I see a heavy identification of male readers with the main character. I'm not saying all of these reviewers are misogynist, per se, but perhaps too ready to ignore this fault of the main character.
Have you read "Catch and Kill"? This problem runs very deep. It's not something that conveniently divides on party lines, but is connected with men in power who wield it to assault women and destroy their careers if they don't succumb.
Misogyny is as ingrained in American society as racism.
Weinstein is going to trial. Rape is not about sex, but about power and abuse. His rap sheet is indeed very long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_...
Weinstein is going to trial. Rape is not about sex, but about power and abuse. His rap sheet is indeed very long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_...
BTW, I wrote a review of this book a while back that was deleted. I prefer this one any way, but found the removal of the other a little unsettling.
I'm smiling here. Michael, at the coincidence of the first of your reviews to ever appear in my feed being precisely this one. When I saw the title at the top of the feed this morning, my first reaction was irritation because this is a book I've grown so tired of hearing about. I was a little mollified to see the review was not another starry-eyed one.
Reading the quote you included reminded me that Williams writes well but I agree with you that the scene underlines one of the odd aspects of this book: the character who switched to studying literature as a result of hearing that sonnet but whose narrative from then on doesn't carry any literary resonances.
I quite liked the character Stoner though—in spite of the poor choices he made again and again. What bothered me was the way the author set up the story, not only the lack of literary resonances but the parade of 'evil' (and not very credible) enemies he threw at Stoner, beginning with Edith. And then those poor choices he had Stoner make. It's ok to have a character make poor choices but if you set up your character to be a hero, then you need to allow him to make choices fitting his status. So it was John Williams who got on my wrong side me not William Stoner.
I read Augustus later, and you're right, Cecily, it's a much better book. Apologies, Cecily, if you get a notification for this thread, for having to hear me rant about this book all over again;-)
Reading the quote you included reminded me that Williams writes well but I agree with you that the scene underlines one of the odd aspects of this book: the character who switched to studying literature as a result of hearing that sonnet but whose narrative from then on doesn't carry any literary resonances.
I quite liked the character Stoner though—in spite of the poor choices he made again and again. What bothered me was the way the author set up the story, not only the lack of literary resonances but the parade of 'evil' (and not very credible) enemies he threw at Stoner, beginning with Edith. And then those poor choices he had Stoner make. It's ok to have a character make poor choices but if you set up your character to be a hero, then you need to allow him to make choices fitting his status. So it was John Williams who got on my wrong side me not William Stoner.
I read Augustus later, and you're right, Cecily, it's a much better book. Apologies, Cecily, if you get a notification for this thread, for having to hear me rant about this book all over again;-)
Fionnuala wrote: "I'm smiling here. Michael, at the coincidence of the first of your reviews to ever appear in my feed being precisely this one."
This review from almost a year ago seems only to have showed up again because of a minor edit I did, i.e. removing a dead link.
I think we share the same fundamental point that identifying with the character is the key. There's a subjective element here and I have no intention of trying to project my feelings on to anyone else. This is one reason I opted not to do a star rating on this one.
I did find the linked articles rather interesting.
This review from almost a year ago seems only to have showed up again because of a minor edit I did, i.e. removing a dead link.
I think we share the same fundamental point that identifying with the character is the key. There's a subjective element here and I have no intention of trying to project my feelings on to anyone else. This is one reason I opted not to do a star rating on this one.
I did find the linked articles rather interesting.
Michael--I share your belief that Stoner is vastly overrated. The book has become one of those mediocre novels whose reputations have undergone a makeover so that what was once rightly considered mediocre is now an underappreciated minor classic. I think most readers of 'Stoner' have little idea what it would be like to grow up in a farm town in Missouri. Stoner's early life is not discussed at all and as an only child there would no doubt be great pressure on him to take over the family farm when the time came. His admission to the university based on the recommendation of the county farm agent to his father also seems implausible. Most readers, I'm also guessing, have never worked on a farm. It is backbreaking work from early in the morning to late at night, and the loss of an able-bodied child would be a great one. The fact Stoner's father agreed to let his son go to college is something of a miracle. That he went and had his literary epiphany and went on to earn a PhD is also extremely unlikely--but it is a considerable success given Stoner's impecunious background and drab personality. The novel was based on a real poet, one JV Cunningham, who was nothing like Stoner other than he had an unhappy marriage and escaped from it. People lauding this book are people who've never worked a 16-hour day on a farm in -20 F weather or they would realize that Stoner's becoming a PhD and a professor is not a story of failure regardless of the trials he later went through.
Thanks for the background. I looked up Williams' biography. His grandparents were farmers, but his father worked for the Post Office, so it seems doubtful that Williams put in any of those back-breaking shifts on a farm that you allude to.
As a working writer, I am every sensitive to style. It does not have to be literary genius but if the style gets in the way or seems to be off-key it's off-putting. A good test is to read it aloud and see how it sounds. I did that with my wife per Stoner and she agreed it was awkward.
The other thing is identifying with a character, Although I am perfectly content to spend time alone, say reading or writing, I'm not an introvert or a loner.
As a working writer, I am every sensitive to style. It does not have to be literary genius but if the style gets in the way or seems to be off-key it's off-putting. A good test is to read it aloud and see how it sounds. I did that with my wife per Stoner and she agreed it was awkward.
The other thing is identifying with a character, Although I am perfectly content to spend time alone, say reading or writing, I'm not an introvert or a loner.
I started the book today, only 25 pages read. But I love it in the same sense as I love Vladimir Nabokov's 'Lolita': the book's language. I do not read aloud, though. For me, it's a stream of consciousness, with semicolons as comfortably soft green, with weeds boulders that make the water swirl. It's a song without pauses between words, almost a murmur in the darkness. And it's captivating.
I don't think it's right to judge books' morale from the height of modern times. A reader who picks up 'Stoner' would not consider it an example to follow in personal relations.
I don't think it's right to judge books' morale from the height of modern times. A reader who picks up 'Stoner' would not consider it an example to follow in personal relations.
Let's go inside the book. His wife goes through this sudden personality change that makes her out to be a harridan. And he rapes his wife. This is misogyny. This is not a character I can feel sympathy for the way many other readers do.
Right now I am reading Proust. Now there's a great stylist.
Right now I am reading Proust. Now there's a great stylist.
You don't have to feel sympathy or feel related towards the main character to like/dislike the book. Fiction is beyond logic.
Anyway, I am not arguing :) I'll put my thoughts together after finishing the book
Anyway, I am not arguing :) I'll put my thoughts together after finishing the book
Darya: I see your point. I am also going to reread reviews of Stoner. But you're right that liking a character, or not, is not necessarily a factor if you like a book or not. Dead Souls comes to mind. I don't have a personal feeling about the characters, but it's a wonderfully ironic book that took me a couple to tries to figure out.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Look forward to your review.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Look forward to your review.
I reread several favorable reviews. A common thread was that readers identified with Stoner and liked that he was a bibliophile. They saw some of themselves, or someone they knew, in the main stoic character. Beyond logic or not, that is a very common reason why people like certain books.
I did not make that connection nor was I particularly impressed with the writing. I'm an obvious outlier in this.
I mentioned Proust. He is a very complex, interesting person who writes beautifully and is an astute observer and judge of people. There's far more depth for me in his In Search of Lost Time than in a book like Stoner. It's the kind of fiction I prefer.
I did not make that connection nor was I particularly impressed with the writing. I'm an obvious outlier in this.
I mentioned Proust. He is a very complex, interesting person who writes beautifully and is an astute observer and judge of people. There's far more depth for me in his In Search of Lost Time than in a book like Stoner. It's the kind of fiction I prefer.
"Sorry friends, block me of you must, but this is just bad writing, laughable."
Anyone who blocks you because they don't like your opinion is not worth having as a friend anyway. That said, I see it's on my TBR list, and most of my friends seemed to like it a lot, even the females that are somewhat sensitive about female issues. I may have to read it and decide for myself - what a concept.
Anyone who blocks you because they don't like your opinion is not worth having as a friend anyway. That said, I see it's on my TBR list, and most of my friends seemed to like it a lot, even the females that are somewhat sensitive about female issues. I may have to read it and decide for myself - what a concept.
I had long forgotten about it until Darya (above) brought it up. She makes a valid point that liking or disliking a character isn't necessarily the basis of whether one likes a book or not or whether a book is good or not.
What I noticed in re-reading the positive reviews of my connections is that the story emotionally resonated with them. It touched a chord. Some even cried.
What can get tricky in these situations is that when folks are enamored with a certain book they can take it personally if you don't agree. I simply posted my review in Jan 20 and left it at that. I did not make comments on the reviews of others.
But, if I had to bet, I'd guess you would probably like the book, but for your own reasons.
What I noticed in re-reading the positive reviews of my connections is that the story emotionally resonated with them. It touched a chord. Some even cried.
What can get tricky in these situations is that when folks are enamored with a certain book they can take it personally if you don't agree. I simply posted my review in Jan 20 and left it at that. I did not make comments on the reviews of others.
But, if I had to bet, I'd guess you would probably like the book, but for your own reasons.
It's subjective, Terence.
I love Proust, but many on GR have not got very far with him. I don't fault them for that. It's their choice.
I love Proust, but many on GR have not got very far with him. I don't fault them for that. It's their choice.
Now I'm beginning to look forward to giving it a try due to the controversy. I'm curious to see what it's all about. Hope I can be open-minded going in. ;-)
I reread your review, Michael. You've put your finger on one of the big flaws in the book for me: the way literature was not exploited much in the story in spite of it being the catalyst of some of Stoner's life choices.
And thanks for the link:-)
And thanks for the link:-)
Interesting point about art being relatable. I am of the opinion that it should be but the reader needs to work at what the author intended and in what way it is relatable, even if the reader must stretch or reconsider his own boundaries.
Ms.Pegasus:
Did you have a chance to read Fionnuala's review? (I included it as part of my review, but I realize that some people don't have time to click links). I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, just sharing a perspective that resonated with me. Best.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Did you have a chance to read Fionnuala's review? (I included it as part of my review, but I realize that some people don't have time to click links). I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, just sharing a perspective that resonated with me. Best.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Thanks for the reminder. Unfortunately, I can't get the link to work on either my kindle or my phone. Will definitely look up on my laptop this evening. This is yet another of the ongoing problems I continue to have with Goodreads.
Alas, Pegasus, the problems on GR keep multiplying,
At the time Bezos purchased GR it was part of his strategy to capture significant marketshare on books. He has long since moved on to other interests. But I think GR has suffered from lack of maintenance and upgrades as a result. (I do not include their new review interface, which is very clunky)
At the time Bezos purchased GR it was part of his strategy to capture significant marketshare on books. He has long since moved on to other interests. But I think GR has suffered from lack of maintenance and upgrades as a result. (I do not include their new review interface, which is very clunky)
Agreed. Half the page is filled with a giant picture of the book I just read and the review is squeezed into some narrow real estate with noleft hand margin
oh, for goodness sakes!
This is the problem with some of these tycoons, they do things half-assed and move on.
This is the problem with some of these tycoons, they do things half-assed and move on.
Well, that will teach me to gloss over a link that someone takes the trouble to provide and cite as worth reading. What an extraordinarily well-written review. Thanks for reminding me to read it. A genuinely thoughtful expansion on the flaws you wrote about, and more!
Fionnuala is a fabulous reader and reviewer. Unfortunately, the GR algorithm doesn't send me her stuff on a regular basis.
I don't know what is going on. My husband friended me. I am his only friend. Suddenly, they simply stopped sending him notifications when I post a review. I thought at first he was just snubbing me!
Thanks for the heart-cheering words about my review, guys!
I appreciate very much that you point people to my review of this book, Michael, and Ms.pegasus, I'm impressed that you followed the link. In turn, I clicked on the 'rated it' link beside your name and read your own review. I think it may be the most considered of the positive reviews of this book I've read. Not overly effusive like many, just awake to the good moments in the story.
I appreciate very much that you point people to my review of this book, Michael, and Ms.pegasus, I'm impressed that you followed the link. In turn, I clicked on the 'rated it' link beside your name and read your own review. I think it may be the most considered of the positive reviews of this book I've read. Not overly effusive like many, just awake to the good moments in the story.
Thank you Fionnuala. I loved how you were able to combine your deep emotions with the parts of the book you found so disappointing. Always a delight to encounter a well written perspective that differs from my own.