Support

I would like to translate into the southwestern dialect of Ojibwe

ISO 693-3 code: ciw

Native name: Anishinaabemowin or Ojibwemowin (the specific region would be zhaawani-ningaabii'ani-ojibwewakiing)

JGHFunRun (talk) 20:03, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you actually know this language? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:39, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am learning, but I'm not particularly great ATM (although I try to only provide translations for which I am confident). If necessary I can wait until someone else steps up or until I meet the required fluency; it likely is a good idea to wait until then now that I think about it. JGHFunRun (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, let's do that. According to the page Translatewiki.net languages, there should be at least one person with native or comparable proficiency willing to translate into the language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@JGHFunRun: It would also be a good idea to hold off on creating articles on the incubator in ciw since you don't know the language. It creates issues down the line ranging from making the language community avoid it to the whole Scots Wikipedia mess. It can also cause problems with datasets should someone who cannot assess the quality of the Wikipedia texts in ciw decides to collect the texts for natural language processing applications, perpetuating the problem. Anyway you look at it, it's not a good idea and you (and all of us too) should stick to languages we know well when there is not an active community of native speakers who are willing to fix the texts. - Yupik (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I wish to request some technical support with dealing with grammatical information relating to names in toki pona (tok). toki pona is an isolating language, so it does not need any grammatical support for its morphology. however, a problem that we in the translating community have encoutered is for names.

brief introduction: instead of proper nouns, toki pona has proper adjectives, this means that a name is accompanied by a head word or phrase (called the headnoun) that describes the name with an entity: if you have something named "Sydney" (Sini), it may be a place (ma Sini), a person (jan Sini) or a football group (kulupu musi Sini) or something else entirely. this is often backtranslated as "the thing named Sydney"). it is typically ungrammatical to translate without that headnoun. for wikis, this means that we have to make a choice about how the name the wiki otherwise everything is either has (1) no headnoun or (2) too many headnouns.

the actual name part of name is the latter part of the phrase, found with capital letters (toki pona is otherwise all lowercase). names may take different headnouns even when referring to the same entity in order to showcase different aspects of it. for example, with Wikipedia (Wikipesija):

• lipu ("book, document") — as the wiki is something you read
• ma ("land") — this is a common metaphor, that the wiki is a place to edit
• ilo ("tool, intrument") — this refers focuses on the aspect of the wiki as a tool for something
• kulupu ("group") — this refers to the group that edits the wiki

there is additionally another issue with dealing with wiki names that use words that are already in toki pona, such as the partner wiki to lipu Wikipesija, that is sona pona (literally meaning "good knowledge"). you can't refer to the website in toki pona as sona pona because it would be interpreted literally, you can just say lipu sona pona because again it would be interpreted literally as "the good knowledge book/website". in writing, people trying to preserve the name will either wrap it quotations (lipu "sona pona") or capitalise it similarly to a proper name (lipu Sona Pona).

one more thing, toki pona and other languages, like English, treat toki pona names differently, all I described works for toki pona as names are fluid and can change headnoun, however, when talking about toki pona things in English, one typically picks one headnoun and treats the whole phrase as a name (i.e. in English, it is only called lipu Wikipesija, but in toki pona, it varies). I wonder if there is a way to set the wiki name depending on the language as that would be helpful.

with the issue described, let me propose a possible solution using the GRAMMAR function as follows:

{{GRAMMAR:name|1= |2= }}

• the first argument is the desired headnoun
• the second argument is the name of the wiki, which can be pulled from SITENAME
• internal logic:
  • if all the words in the site name start with capital letters, return $1 $2
  • if any of the words in the site name start with lowercase letters, return $1 "$2"

in this method, lipu Wikipesija should be renamed to just Wikipesija for MediaWiki, but otherwise, no further specific changes are needed outside of translating the software itself.

Examples:

• {{GRAMMAR:name|lipu|Wikipesija}} gives lipu Wikipesija
• {{GRAMMAR:name|lipu|sona pona}} gives lipu "sona pona"
• {{GRAMMAR:name|ma|My Test Wiki}} gives ma My Test Wiki
• {{GRAMMAR:name|ilo|my Test Wiki}} gives ilo "my Test Wiki"

pinging the rest of the people working on translating MediaWiki into toki pona: @Eic17H, @.hecko, @Ookap, @Tamzin, @Tbodt. Juwan (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

not sure about "any of the words" (vs just the first word); it messes with some half-named like (toki) Elena majuna, and i think i might be fine with e.g. lipu Wiki of Testing not having quotes?

also what about caseless writing systems? initial non-letters, like in my username? .hecko (talk) 19:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

good point, I hadn't considered that well enough, reworked for humans:

• if the word is the the Latin script and has a capital/lowercase version:
  • if the first word in the site name start with capital letters, return $1 $2
  • else, if the first word in the site name start with lowercase letters, return $1 "$2"
• else, if the word starts with a non-letter symbol (number, punctuation mark), return $1 $2
• similarly if the word is any other script other than Latin, also return $1 $2

possible reworked for machines:

• if the word matches [A-Za-z], return $1 "$2"
• otherwise, return $1 $2

Juwan (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This (including the more detailed outline just above) sounds good to me! I do want to say that in my experience the style of lipu "sona pona" is much more widespread than that of lipu Sona Pona. However, it seems quotation marks will be preferred for lowercase words, which is good. I think this system is a great idea and am excited for its implementation. Ookap (talk) 23:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

the toki pona translation for the string Twnmp-stats-number-k (“$1k”) cannot be added. toki pona has different number systems and numbres cannot be abbreviated with e.g. "k". the simplest option is to just write the number in full. Juwan (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no word or abbreviation for "thousand", you can simply write three zeros, e.g. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is a string for template https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:WMF_Navbar :

https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&showMessage=wm-commonstrings-news-events&group=ext-wikimediacommonstrings&language=uk&action_source=search&filter=&optional=1&action=proofread

The string for the menu bar is translated, but it doesn't appear in the menu, for example at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation/uk we still see text "News and Events" instead of "Новини та події".

What should I do to fix it? Perohanych (talk) 10:07, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You did everything correctly. It will probably be deployed to Wikipedia on Thursday, January 30. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:22, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How often does the deployment happen? Perohanych (talk) 22:18, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, everything that is translated before Monday is deployed to Wikipedia in most languages, including Ukrainian, on Thursday. For more details, see wikitech:Deployments/Train. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:43, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References:

• New feature for (in)formal language variants
• Proposal: change nl to informal tense, get rid of nl-informal variant

In June 2024, the community discussed the possibility of transitioning Dutch translations to use informal language as the default, citing societal trends (formal 'u' being increasingly perceived as archaic), current linguistic norms, inconsistenties in translations within projects, and practical challenges using the {{#FORMAL}} magic word. See the discussion linked above. Despite general support for the proposal, no action was taken at that time. I would like to revisit that discussion.

The proposal is to adopt nl-informal as the default variant; to semi-automatically (with human oversight) move current nl-informal translations to nl, overwriting the latter; to deprecate nl-informal; and to introduce nl-formal as an optional secondary variant. Portal:Nl/Richtlijnen and other documentation should be updated accordingly.

I have invited the Dutch Wikipedia community to share their thoughts on this proposal.

Ping: McDutchie, Romaine, Sjoerddebruin, Vistaus, Mainframe98, Robin van der Vliet. Jeroen N (talk) 12:26, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I support this request. Using "U" is not what I expect from a project like Wikipedia and related. Mbch331 (talk) 12:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support. Even banks now address their customers in the informal. The formal default wasn't appropriate for the wiki culture two decades ago, and is less so now. We need to make the informal form of address the default and stop looking like dinosaurs or tax authorities (but I repeat myself). McDutchie (discussion) 13:57, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As long as there'll be a nl-formal, I'm happy to support this proposal. —Mainframe98 _talk 15:36, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support. In common language "je" is the normal form. In formal language "u" is the normal form, but often perceived archaic. In most system messages already "je" is used and not "u". Practically: Most maintenance to system messages goes to the ones with language code "nl" and often system messages with language code "nl-informal" are forgotten and those can be outdated. Overriding the system messages in "nl" with "nl-informal" will be not a good idea as then outdated system messages can be implemented. This needs to be done manually or semi-automatically, and I am used to do bulk requests like these, so I am happy to work on this. Romaine (talk) 20:22, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

They are not outdated any more. I've updated all the outdated messages, so they are ready to be moved over. McDutchie (discussion) 00:11, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am wondering how you did do that. Also I would like to know how you catched all outdated messages. Still I am not feeling much for just overriding system messages with language code "nl" by "nl-informal", also because all the system messages with language code "nl" are much often used and seen and therefore more often corrected when spelling/language mistakes have been made as well as inconsistencies. In the past decade the Dutch community has in various occasions indicated to be annoyed by such issues, so avoiding that is seems to me a very good idea. Romaine (talk) 13:39, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

By fixing the messages marked as outdated and proofreading everything else. McDutchie (discussion) 17:35, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in support of this proposal. One minor thing to point out is that informal address is much more common in The Netherlands (18 million speakers) than it is in other parts where Dutch is spoken. I'm thinking of Belgium (6 million speakers), Suriname (roughly 400k?) and the Dutch part of the Leeward Antilles (fewer than 300k?). A few opinions from Belgium in particular would be welcome. Frank Geerlings (talk) 21:26, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We have come across some situations where a newcomer submitted problematic translations without knowledge of Portal:Zh/Translation_guidelines. Is it possible to require Chinese translator to read Portal:Zh/Translation_guidelines before they can contribute? Diskdance (talk) 08:46, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Smal с insted capital С

Regards Milicevic01 (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All the language names in the Portals are written with capital letters, even if the grammar doesn't require it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:49, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake Milicevic01 (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

hellooo!! :3

can you change my username to Əkrəm? thanks in advance!! :3 əkrəm. 18:55, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, are there any hardcoded limits for how many keys you can translate per minute? I do 4-5 in a row, it marks them as translated, then it starts to show "Unpublished", after that I have to wait for a minute or so before I can proceed again. I understand it is to prevent spam, but it is extremely frustrating. I just want to bomb it and do couple of hundred keys in one go, not do four, get angry, wait, do other four, get mad, wait, and so on and on... Is there a way I can change that? Czech translation of Bluespice needs a lot of love, but how am I supposed to translate so many entries effectively? Allow an enthusiast to contribute without losing mind (and interest)!

Anyways, rant over. Thanks in advance for any help/advice. Jrobicek (talk) 15:52, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Jrobicek: It is because your user account is new. When it reaches a certain age*, you will get a much higher rate limit (currently 8 edits/minute for you, the limit will be raised to 90 edits/minute).

* From my investigations, this limit is 14 days, though that seems quite high to me. Also, I (as an administrator) cannot override this for a certain user, which I can in Wikimedia wikis (by adding them to the "Confirmed users" group). Maybe @Nike can provide some guidance here. Jon Harald Søby (talk) 08:36, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking into it, @Jon Harald Søby! It seems like I am still on 4 edits a minute, just tried. But anyways, if the only thing I need to to is to wait for two weeks to get these restrictions removed, then so be it. Lets see what @Nike says. Worst case, I will just come back later. In any case your help is much appreciated! Jrobicek (talk) 09:08, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Jrobicek: Your problem uncovered a bug that I've been trying to help untangle today (the limit is supposed to be 8 edits/minute, but something makes every edit count twice, so it is effectively only 4). But regardless of that bug, I think we should raise the rate limit here in translatewiki.net, so I filed a task and submitted a patch to increase the limit, so hopefully we will have this solved before 14 days. :-) Jon Harald Søby (talk) 23:20, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You are a gentleman and a scholar, @Jon Harald Søby! Thanks a lot! Jrobicek (talk) 08:43, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Jrobicek: 😊 The patch to increase the limit for new accounts was merged yesterday, so hopefully you won't run into these rate limits any more! Jon Harald Søby (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mediawiki is currently removing Flow and LQT in all wikis. The programme consists of moving boards to subpages, setting them to read-only, convert the LQT pages into wikitext, and finally completely remove the extension from the wiki. It seems there is no existing plan for translatewiki. Will the local wiki joined this programme? If not, will translatewiki do the same thing as mediawiki does? 阿南之人 (talk) 11:51, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See for example https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T332104#10413640. Looks like the developers are not going to provide a migration path that makes sense to us. This will likely lead us to situation where we have to suddenly undeploy LQT at some point because it stops working completely, losing access to old conversations. Nike (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Nike: Well, he wrote a very crude liquidthreads->wikitext converter at https://public-paws.wmcloud.org/46222050/WMF%20Cleanup/LQTW.ipynb. You may use this. 阿南之人 (talk) 12:39, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]