Talk: Keeper

Please do not Disturb the Keepers --LeathamGrant 22:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC) ;)

Where the heck is "The alleyway" ?

As you leave Chora's Den, facing the entrance to the Lower Markets, the entrance to the alleyway is on your left. -- Tullis 10:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Insect vs Arachnid[]

OK, just made an edit where I stated the keepers had 6, not 8 limbs. I missed the smaller pair of grasping limbs. They do in fact have 8 limbs. That being said, I would still like to see support for the "apparently vertebrate" bit. SpartHawg948 12:28, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Well, i can't be certain, but it looks like it has a spine. I could be wrong, but you can see what looks like a spine, if you look at them from behind. --Gormtheelder 18:08, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Well, you're right about one thing- you can't be certain. Saying they are apparently vertebrate because you think you see a spine is speculation, pure and simple. SpartHawg948 21:06, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

• Given that they're insect-like but have eight limbs, wouldn't "Arthropoid" be a more accurate adjective?

"any invertebrate of the phylum Arthropoda, having a segmented body, jointed limbs, and usually a chitinous shell that undergoes moltings, including the insects, spiders and other arachnids, crustaceans, and myriapods."

--Logan Felipe 05:27, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

No, because that makes the assumption that they are invertebrates and undergo moltings, both of which are characteristic of arthropods. And given that they more closely resemble insects (a specific subset of arthropods) than arthropods in general (which also include, among other things, lobsters and crabs, which don't resemble keepers at all), I'd rather avoid changing it, as arthropoid seems even more vague (rather than more accurate). SpartHawg948 08:27, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Is any of this even applicable to extra-terrestrial life forms. They don't necessarily have to fall into any specific Earth families, so unless there is anything that states that the keeper is either, it should be kept off the page. Dtemps123 23:33, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the codex actually describes the keepers as an "insect race". This is one of the many reasons it's more accurate/less speculative to label them as insect, as opposed to arachnid or arthropod. SpartHawg948 00:47, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Well there is something that states the keeper is one, and I stand corrected. Dtemps123 03:02, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Keeper History[]

Doesn't Vigil say that the Keepers were not created by the Protheans, but that they were the first species to be invaded by the Reapers? --Thenorthernman 09:35, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not 100%, but I think he says that even the Protheans were not sure whether the Keepers were a species that had been conquered by the Reapers or if they were in fact created by the Reapers. I'll go back and get verification on that (provided I don't forget to do it tomorrow!) SpartHawg948 09:48, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

In fact, upon a little closer examination of the article, it actually says precisely that in the article. You may have just seen the intro paragraph. We do not, of course, post spoilers in the first few paragraphs. All the information I provided above is in fact in the article below the spoiler warning. SpartHawg948 11:27, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

I have a feeling that in ME3, a great deal of information will be discovered about the Keepers. Or at least I hope so.Veniathan 01:55, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I hope we learn they're full of chocolate, and are made of rainbows and dreams! For some reason, I don't see my hopes being fulfilled... :( SpartHawg948 00:11, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

I believe the Keepers were the first race to exist and they created the Reapers. However the Reapers revolted and turned the Keepers into slaves using a mind conrol indoctrination. - Salarian Scientist, July 14th, 2010, 10:47 PM.

The Keepers are referenced with surprising frequency in ME2, considering that the citadel has such a small role compared with ME1; by crew members, Chorban's email (a relevant quote from which follows), and Mordin, if I'm not mistaken. Mainly referring to their creation; crew members and Mordin hypothesize that the keepers could have been modified like the collectors were. Given that Chorban's data suggests that both the reapers and the keepers were engineered by the same people, this adds more questions than it answers. Who, for instance, engineered both? Were the creators of the Reapers indoctrinated like the collectors and made to engineer the keepers? Or did an as of yet unknown race not only engineer the Reapers and Keepers, but use the Reapers to build the Citadel before being turned on by the Reapers, much like what happened with the Quarians and the Geth? Hopefully Mass Effect 3 will tie up these loose ends...

• "I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign! You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians." 75.7.83.85 07:02, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Chorban's comment may not be necessary accurate. After all, the events that happen during the battle at Citadel were hushed and downplayed. The Council points it as a geth uprising. So he may not be aware that Sovereign is a Reaper and therefore wouldn't possibly know that the Reapers could have engineered/indoctrinate the Keepers. Thus the email he sent is just reaffirming what we the player/Shepard already know. Teugene 07:19, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Missing category[]

How the holy heck did we miss putting this page in Category:Keepers for so long?

Poor uncategorised keepers. We are bad, bad people. : ) --Tullis 17:49, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced Comment[]

"Seeing as the keepers are now useless to the Reapers, Sovereign sought to replace them with a more controllable race, like the geth, believing synthetic races were more predictable and malleable to its wishes."

What's the source on that one? I wish I could find that little [source] tag, I would have just edited and appended that there, but... sounds like speculation to me. Sounds like good speculation, but I don't know what the source would be on that. Boter 22:27, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

The source was the game. The entire plot of the game. Also, I believe that Vigil states something to that effect when explaining what they Protheans did to the keepers, but regardless, the game was the source. SpartHawg948 23:18, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

I've played through a ton of times, and never caught on to that being the reason for Sovereign using the geth ("you must think me incredibly dense"); I thought he was using then to get to the Citadel, but not having them supplant the Keepers. The more I think about it, the more I think that the geth are too advanced, too intelligent to take over for the mindless Keepers. I imagined Sovereign reprogramming whatever makes the Keepers to set them back to their baseline. The Reapers made the Keepers once; they can re-make them again. Eh, whatever, I'll make sure to grill Vigil on my latest play-through. Boter 03:50, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's not known whether the Reapers created the Keepers, or merely enslaved them. That's something else Vigil tells you. It's also stated here in the Keeper article. But basically, since the Protheans rendered the Keepers "inert" and thereby prevented them from carrying out the Reapers orders, the Reapers needed someone else to carry out their wishes. Who better than a race that worship the Reapers as gods? SpartHawg948 03:54, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Keepers and Reapers[]

This is pure speculation, and I don't expect it to be included in the article, but upon completing Mass Effect yesterday, I had a thought. What if the keepers are the bio-engineered descendants of the race that created the Reapers?

• Hypothesis: The ancestral Keepers created the reapers as a fleet of advanced multipurpose capital ships with the power to indoctrinate their foes. Over time, unbenounced to the their creators, the Reapers evolve and achieve Artificial Intellegence (much like the Geth). The ancestral Keepers task the Reapers with building the Mass Relays and the Citadel. The Reapers comply, using their indoctrination to give them true control over the designs. Being under indoctrination, the ancestral Keepers in question are unaware that they're being manipulated by the Reapers. At some point after the completion of the Mass Relay System and the Citadel, the Reapers mobilize against their creators, destroying all other evidence of their civilization and enslaving a significant number of ancestral Keepers. Due to sustained indoctrination, the ancestral keepers have become little more than husks. Over time, the Reapers guide the evolution of their enslaved creators through artificial selection and bio-engineering, using them as tools to maintain the Citadel.

Pure speculation, but I thought it seemed plausible. --Logan Felipe 21:08, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it is something that would have happened to the keepers without noticeable changes in the Reaper behavior. If indoctrination was a tool the keepers used, it would have been something they were immune to. That's why chemical weapons are not used often or a popular warfare tool. If the Reapers changed indoctrination to the point where keepers could be affected, they likely would have noticed, much in the same way you notice other people are sick or a seemingly normal behaving person is still off in some way.--Xaero Dumort 21:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

• True, but even if the ancestral Keepers found out, the Reapers were still a massive fleet of powerful warships. Even if the ancestral Keepers tried to develop a way to resist indoctrination, their efforts would be greatly hindered by the Reapers who would likely make an offensive if they were discovered. Descriptions of indoctrination in the game state that by the time indoctrination is noticeable, it's usually too late to do anything about it. In Mass Effect, Shepard can visibly tell something's wrong with the colonists on Feros, but when he or she finds out that the Thorian is controlling them, the Thorian knows that Shepard knows, and openly attacks the player's team with creepers and colonist thralls. Being discovered by the Keepers could also have served as a catalyst to cause the Reapers to openly revolt, much as the Quarian race's attempt to shut down the Geth upon discovering their AI capabilities resulted in the Geth openly revolting and subsequently driving the Quarians into exile.

Specifics aside however, is it not plausible that an ancient advanced civilization created the Reapers, and that they, one way or another, were enslaved and bio-engineered to become Keepers? --Logan Felipe 21:53, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, it is all very plausible, but I think creation using templates and not the originals themselves would be more so. Wipe out their creators and using their genes create a subservient race. Why just indoctrinate? There is always the risk that someone could break it or be rescued and a weapon for the demise of the Reapers discovered. Why take the risk? But maybe the keepers are a creation from the template of the Zeioph or even dealing with the crypts on Klencory.

It's certainly plausible, but provable and plausible are two very different things. And unfortunately Sovereign isn't very helpful. All it says is that no one created the Reapers, they always were. And it is worth noting that when Vigil brings up the Keepers he posits that they could be a race that were enslaved by the Reapers, or a creation of the Reapers, but not that they may have been the creators of and later victims of the Reapers. It's hardly conclusive, but it is worth noting that there is at least circumstantial evidence against the Keepers being the creators of the Reapers, and currently none in favor of. SpartHawg948 22:35, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

More speculation.. Perhaps the "backpack" they have is involved in controlling their actions. Either by directing an otherwise unintelligent creature to do the work for the citadel, or, perhaps, blocking the free will of an otherwise intelligent race.

There's also the question of why the Reapers would need the help of the Keepers to activate relays or whatever.. If the Reapers are machines, and the citadel is a machine created by them (controlling the keepers), wouldn't they be able to communicate directly?

86.10.208.29 16:07, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Citadel Race?[]

Why are the Keepers filed under "Citadel" in the box at the bottom? I thought that was for political status, not whether or not they reside in Citadel Space. 96.235.50.58 07:04, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's not just that they "reside in Citadel Space". They are also the race most associated with the Citadel, other than the Protheans. They do, after all, reside solely on the Citadel. They are the one race responsible for keeping the Citadel up and running. They do seem to have some sort of symbiotic relationship with the Citadel (although that phrase may be pushing it a bit), they keep the Citadel up and running and somehow their numbers are maintained at a constant level even when one is lost due to outside tampering. Stating that they only "reside in Citadel Space" would seem to be understating it in this case. SpartHawg948 07:28, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this should not be filed under Citadel Races as they're essentially non-sapient. They live on and maintain the Citadel, but the term Citadel Race means that they take part politically and economically within the Citadel governance structures. The Keepers do not.--Sablue82 22:28, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

And the drell do? The drell do not appear to take part in this "Citadel governance structure", yet they are a Citadel race. The keepers are not "essentially non-sapient". They have simply had their free will stripped away by the Reapers in order to be used as pawns in the Reapers plans. In this regard, they are essentially the same as the Collectors, and I don't think anyone would claim the Collectors are non-sapient. SpartHawg948 22:49, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Aren't the drell represented as citizens of the hanar government and thus as much a Citadel race as much as the hanar?--Ironreaper 03:44, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but that excuse for their inactivity doesn't really fly when you recall that the volus are clients of the Turian Hierarchy, which manages their foreign affairs, but the volus are at the same time very active in the galactic government, with their own embassy, and talk of a possible seat on the Council. SpartHawg948 03:54, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

The volus are client race, but maintain a government of their own (which was on the Citadel long before the turians), seem to largely maintain political autonym outside of military matters and hold a great deal of influence in economic matters in Citadel space. The drell have no government to represent themselves, no territory to build a civilisation of their own, no military and lack the numbers of other species. They also are bonded to the hanar by the Compact and are quite comfortable in there role as helpers and productive citizens under hanar representation (Kepler Syndrome aside). The difference between the two is very large.--Ironreaper 04:09, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

The drell actually do have a civilization and territory. It's just the drell who went with the hanar who don't. My point wasn't how the drell are governed, it was simply to point out the fallacy of using reasoning like "take part politically and economically within the Citadel governance structures" as justification for a race being a Citadel race or not. The keepers don't take part politically and economically, but neither do the drell. If we apply that logic to remove the keepers, we must also use it to remove the drell, as after all, they're hanar citizens. SpartHawg948 05:00, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

• I should also point out that the volus, as I in fact already mentioned, are not largely autonomous "outside of military matters". They are autonomous on domestic issues, but as I pointed out, it has been canonically stated numerous times that the volus, as a client race of the turians, have ceded control of their foreign affairs to the turians. The original comparison was maybe not my best ever, but that doesn't mean we can't get the facts straight. SpartHawg948 05:04, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed I see i was wrong with about the volus' forign autonym. I apologize for that misconception. i certanly agree that the drell are a Citadel race, as they are represented by a body with Citadel membership, my orginal point to begin with. I was trying to highlight the drell's position as a Citadel species in patnership with the hanar. As for their inactivity as a single species? well, maybe they just don't have an interest in that. And the ones left on the drell homeworld are just small clans struggling to survive, so they aren't going to start coming to the Citadel demanding representation any time soon. And if Sablue82 is looking for some contribution to the Citadel council on the part of the keepers (though i doubt that is an offical requirement), could the fact they have maintained the Citadel as a perfect enviroment to become the political and economic hub that it is as enough of a contribution? The Council admitts the Citadel could not be maintained without them.--Ironreaper 06:03, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Taking a quote too literally[]

I figured that, since this one is open to some interpretation, I'd bring it up here before taking any action. The article notes in the ME2 section that, during the repair efforts on the Citadel, the keepers "have surprised everyone by proving that they are heavy lifters." Now, as it just so happens, I was playing through the very portion of ME2 where this comes from, and I'm pretty sure that it's an example of dialogue being taken too literally. When I heard Anderson say it, the impression I got was that he meant they were capable of 'heavy lifting' in the metaphorical sense, i.e. doing hard work ([1]- a definition). After all, it seems obvious that it was known before ME2 that they could lift heavy things. Remember the conversation you could overhear in ME where the woman complains about the keepers rearranging her entire office? I'm not 100% sure about future furniture, but present-day office furniture can be pretty darn heavy. I'm fairly certain that when he made the heavy lifting comment, Anderson meant that nobody thought the keepers did anything other than routine maintenance and tidying up. Come to think of it, maybe I will remove that line. If someone disagrees, they can say so here, and re-add the bit. SpartHawg948 08:31, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. This stuff happens all the time though. I remember back pre-release someone edited Joker's page to say he literally broke his thumb on the mute. JakePT 09:17, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Well i a fairly certain they have at least normal human strength, maybe extra strength. But they do control everything i am surethey would just turn off gravity if theywanted. But nobody definitively ever says they have super strength ralok 09:26, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

The problem is not how strong they are. It's that the quote states that them being heavy lifters caught everyone by surprise and someone took it literally to mean that people were surprised how strong the Keepers were.Bastian964 17:59, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with the metaphorical interpertation on this one. Heavy lifting, as I have heard it, also can mean that someone did a lot of work, which Anderson also states. We don't know their actual strength, so the metaphorical interpertataion to me seems like the most logical one. Lancer1289 18:04, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Pictures Wanted[]

Why this article has a "Pictures Wanted" tag?SoulRipper 15:48, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Who knows? Take it away, see what happens. --AnotherRho 04:42, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Keepers: Evolved, or modified by the protheans?[]

The text reads, "The keepers have changed and evolved so they only respond to the Citadel itself; they are now no longer under Reaper control and pose no threat to anyone." Fine. How does that not contradict the assertion that the protheans altered them, and that's why they aren't affected by the reapers? Also, aren't reapers a race, and not to be capitalized? --AnotherRho 22:14, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

Well... for starters, Reaper (and Prothean, and Collector) are not actually the actual names of those races, but are titles applied to those races by others, and as such, are the only exceptions to the race name caps clause. Now, as to the other point, I addressed this elsewhere (not sure where, so I'll have to probably do some digging), but I believe that Vigil states both that the Keepers have changed and evolved over time, and that the Protheans did modify them. Again though, I'll have to do some research before I'm prepared to say for certain. SpartHawg948 00:14, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Vigil states that the keepers evolved to the point where they only respond to signals from the Citadel, rather then from the Reapers directly. This meant the Vanguard had to send a signal to the Citadel in order to have the Citadel tell the keepers to open the Citadel Relay. The Protheans changed the responses of the Citadel so that when the Vanguard sent the signal, the station, and by extension the keepers, did not respond. --Ironreaper 00:27, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Huzzah! And there you have it! :) SpartHawg948 00:32, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Aphids? Seriously?[]

They're green bugs. And there the resemblance ends. Aphids have very bulbous bodies on spindly legs, while Keepers have relatively compact cone-shaped bodies on much sturdier legs. Aphids have tiny heads on nonexistent necks at the front of their bodies, whereas Keepers have medium-sized heads on long necks on top of their bodies. Aphids walk on all six legs; Keepers walk (well, stand) on four legs and have four arms. Aphids have antennae on their heads and knobbly things on their rear ends; Keepers don't. Look at this picture and tell me if you really see a Keeper:

http://soybeanreview.com/wp-content/uploads/aphid_oneil_highres.jpeg

--Lucius Voltaic 21:35, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone want to defend the aphid analogy? I mean, seriously, they look more like eight-limbed Slitheen. --Lucius Voltaic 20:15, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

I can't think of a better defense than to point out that the 'aphid analogy' comes straight from a canon source written by Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer of Mass Effect. From pg. 112 of Mass Effect: Revelation: "He [David Anderson] passed by one of the keepers, the silent, enigmatic race that maintained and controlled the inner workings of the Citadel. They reminded him of oversized aphids: fat green bodies with too many sticklike arms and legs, always scuttling from one place to another on some task or errand." SpartHawg948 20:37, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it had probably better stay in, but I think I'll water it down a bit. --Lucius Voltaic 22:17, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

Please don't. There's no reason to water down information from the lead writer of the game. SpartHawg948 06:40, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

If Karpyshyn had said "They look like big aphids" that would be different--but isn't this just a character's point of view? --Lucius Voltaic 06:48, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

It's kinda both, isn't it? It's Karpyshyn giving us the first description we get of the keepers anywhere in the franchise (Revelation being a prequel to the first game, and page 112 being literally the first ever description of the keepers), and doing so via a character's point-of-view. SpartHawg948 07:01, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Eh, alright. --Lucius Voltaic 17:11, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Anywho, I totally do see a resemblance to aphids. The use of an expansive "They're green bugs. And there the resemblance ends." kinda sweeps other visual similarities under the rug. Look at their heads, for instance. The keeper head looks like it was taken straight out of the aphid photo, antennae aside. But if you look at the shape of the head, the placement of the eyes, and the eyes themselves, it's strikingly similar. As for the bodies, I'm not sure what pictures of keepers you're looking at, but their bodies are pretty bulbous. I can't see describing them as 'compact', unless you're doing so in jest, like when I call my truck compact because, while it's pretty big next to most cars, for a dually, it is kind of compact. My point in all this rambling is: even if the aphid comparison hadn't come straight from the top, I can totally see a resemblance. Now, if it hadn't come from up top, you'd most definitely have a case for removing it, and I probably wouldn't object. But it does. SpartHawg948 20:20, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

We can leave it in because the designer said so, but I hold to my case that they look very dissimilar. Keeper bodies may be bulbous on their own, but compare the body-width-to-leg-span ratios of Keepers and aphids. For Keepers it's about 1:3, maybe even 1:4. For aphids, it's more like 3:4. --Lucius Voltaic 20:34, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

keeper origin[]

i had a thought on the keeper s after replaying mass effect 1 and 2 could they be rachni as we found out in first one that they were manipulated by the reapers

This is not the appropriate place for this discussion. Take it to the forums or a blog post. Lancer1289 14:17, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Their origin considering Chorbans Mail and Leviathan-DLC[]

So, in the Leviathan-DLC, we learn that the Leviathans had a lot of enthralled species and build the reapers. Chorban sends a mail in ME2, where he writes that his research shows, that the Keepers are made by the same people that build sovereign

So, may the Citadel and the Keepers are relicts of the Leviathans, one of those Races they enthralled, just adapted to their new masters, the reapers? They certainly behave "enthralled"(going about their business, ignoring like... everything^^).

incorrect, hardcore speculation and it doesn't have a place in the articles.

• Chorban only knew half the truth.
  • so did Vigil when he speculated where the keepers were from.
• citadel and keepers = Reaper creations. fact.
• we have no evidence of brainwash balls or other obvious leviathan paraphernalia in the citadel until the DLC came along.

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Keeper/Reaper links?[]

I've always thought the Reaper Destroyer's looked a bit like the keepers. The Codex says that Reaper's create a new reaper every time they harvest the galaxy, maybe the Reaper Destroyer's were based on the ancient Keepers? I know they don't look *exactly* alike, but the Reapers did genetically modify the keepers, so maybe they used to look slightly different, just like the collectors resemble Protheans a bit still.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YG7lYu5SauQ/T2DPwi6HA6I/AAAAAAAAAuc/oLt43sIzPYU/s1600/Mass-Effect-3-reaper+destroyer.jpg

I don't see any reason to include this in the article. Lksdjf (talk) 22:37, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

I thought it was just a place to talk. My bad. Guess I'll go find a forum.

You can also use a blog to discuss it, but forums usually attract the one-off questions. Lksdjf (talk) 07:17, April 21, 2013 (UTC)