Talk:Troparion

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This article is very weak.

1. It's not an hymn of the Eastern Orthodoxy, but of the Byzantine Rite. 2. A dogmatikon is NOT a troparion of the Bearer of God, but a stichera. 3. "Phos Hilarion" and "Ho Monogenês" are NOT troparia, but hymns (as Veni creator in the Latin Rite, or as the hymns of the creation of the Armenian Rite). 4. "Christ is risen" is NOT a troparion, but a trope, like "Holy God" and "Thy cross do we adore". 5. "Axion estin" is NOT a troparion either. - Waelsch 05:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. Continuing the trend toward generalizing these subjects away from Eastern Orthodoxy into the marginally more inclusive "Byzantine" rite, sure.

2. "Troparion" is a very general term. A sticheron is a kind of troparion in the broadest sense. In this case I suspect some slight confusion, since both a sticheron and a troparion might be a "theotokion" and the definitions crossed.

3. Calling Phos Hilarion a troparion may well be a bit of a stretch, but Ho Monogenes definitely is one. Argue with the Britannica about it if you like. [1]

4. "Christ is risen" is explicitly called a "troparion" in the service books. Besides, "troparion" is a diminutive of "tropos". This is not a useful distinction.

5. "Axion Estin" most certainly is a troparion. It's sung in the Tone 8 troparion melody. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two denarii here...

2. Agreed - a sticheron is a troparion of sorts...

5. I'm not sure about Axion Estin being a troparion. It *may* be sung to the Tone 8 Troparion melody, but there are original melodies proper to that hymn, iirc. InfernoXV 05:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this was a pretty old discussion. I'd forgotten about the issue until I noticed your recent edit on my watchlist.

On further thought, I decided that although you perhaps could justify calling a sticheron a troparion, I don't think we ever do, and we distinguish them musically. So it would perhaps be better to keep them distinct, which is why I just cut mention of the dogmatikon.

On Axion Estin, you're probably right. I haven't since found any source that calls it anything but a "hymn". TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I cut references to the kontakion here. It's not really a "companion hymn", nor is it a species of troparion, but has a different history entirely. It's apparent resemblance to the troparion is misleading, and it's used differently.

It is also not true that the kontakion is sung to the same melody as the apolytikion in every chant tradition. I know it's the case in the modern Obikhod, but not everywhere else. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]