Talk:Pakistanis in Afghanistan

This article was nominated for deletion on 28 April 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

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• Mar4d decided to remove large amount of content without explaining or giving a good reason. We have to explain a little history about people historically coming to Afghanistan for many centuries from what is now Pakistan. This occurred especially during the Mughal era, and continues until now. When Pakistan was being created in 1947, Sikhs and others came to Afghanistan from what is now Pakistan. In the 1970s there used to be large number of Indians and Pakistanis in Afghanistan but when the wars began in 1978 they stopped coming until recent. During the 1980s Soviet war, Mujahideen forces from Pakistan began coming to Afghanistan to fight the Soviet-backed Afghan government. The Mujahideen were not only Afghans but also included many Pakistanis and others. If we don't explain this in the article most readers will never know, and the article is very short it needs this in it.

• Captured Pakistani terrorists, drug smugglers, and other criminals are serving years in prisons in Afghanistan or in some cases possibly life, and why must we refuse to add this? So that governments, private or UN agencies, and or the terrorists' family members don't know where they may be? Or so that the general public is unaware about Pakistanis in Afghan prisons? Knowing that the Afghan government is the 3rd most corrupted in the world and that many of the Afghan government employees generally do not like Pakistanis, it is very important that we mention as much as possible about Pakistani prisoners. In fact, just today one inmate died inside the Bagram Theater Internment Facility. [1] We have to mention about all Pakistanis that are in Afghanistan, the good ones, the bad ones, the temporary and the permanent. That's the purpose of this article, and if somebody wants sources the damn internet is full of this.--NorthernPashtun (talk) 12:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• This Pakistani news aricle mentions that one or 2 Pakistani expatriates were harrassed at the Torkham border crossing point in May 2011, but it doesn't mention who exactly harrased them. At Torkham there are both Afghan and Pakistani authorities. The version that Mar4d tries to keep is trying to make it as if this happens to every Pakistani on daily bases.--NorthernPashtun (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are far too many inconsistencies and issues with the previous version of this article. A lot of the content in the article was irrelevant to immigrants and converted this page, which is supposed to be about activities of immigrants only, to a foreign relations article. NorthernPashtun seems desperate to locate any random source of a Pakistani national arrested in Afghanistan and twists the content around to make it sound as if immigrants are involved in terrorist attacks. Here are some of the objections, which I raised earlier:

• Most of the history section is entirely irrelevant and also copied verbatim from that in Afghans in Pakistan without any attribution on the talk page. Directly copying-pasting content from one article to another without giving attribution is a copyright violation. I thought you call yourself a perfectionist in copyright matters, yet here is a very clear-cut example of one. The history section, including the map, also seem misplaced and irrelevant to the article; the map talks about alleged militant camps yet no clarification has been made as to what this has to do with Pakistani immigrants permanently living or working in Afghanistan.

• I don't understand why you modified the lead to mention tourists, exchange students and "members of militant groups." First, tourists are not classified as expatriates or immigrants. Regarding exchange students, this is unsourced and I am unaware of a lot of Pakistani students studying in Afghanistan. The section "Pakistani terrorists and prisoners" is problematic because 1) The title is POV. 2) The so-called terrorists move back and forth across the border any given day. They cannot be called immigrants permanently living in Afghanistan. 3) It is dubious to call all militants who come from the Pakistani side as "Pakistani" because they can include foreign nationals and, considering that most are Pashtun, likely to be of Afghan origin. 3) The second bit about "Others are involved in assassinations, ambushes, planting improvised explosive devices (IEDs), kidnappings, smuggling and other illegal activities" is unsourced. 4) A paragraph mentions that Pakistanis are involved in attacks against Americans and Indians yet the cherry picked sources only talk about a man named Zar Ajam involved in an attack against a bank, who happened to be a Pakistani national. The source further says that Zar Ajam is from North Waziristan. This means that he is not an immigrant who lived in Afghanistan and that his mention on this page is irrelevant too. Things like these belong to an article like Afghanistan-Pakistan relations.

I have yet to find anything in the sources which explicitly make mention of immigrants or generally talk about the activities of Pakistani migrants who actually live inside the country. The crime section of Afghans in Pakistan is far more better than this article because at least it talks about the activities of Afghans living inside Pakistan and because there are 1000s of sources on the internet talking about Afghan terrorists and Afghan smuggling rings operating inside Pakistan. The section here, on the other hand, fails to make even one explicit mention of the activities of Pakistani immigrants and is composed of just any random news article picked from Google by NorthernPashtun/Nisarkand which has the word "Pakistani" in it. NisarKand should carefully check and evaluate each material and statement he adds, especially whether it is relevant, like I do on Afghans in Pakistan and make sure that it is related to Pakistani immigrants. Zar Ajam is a Pakistani national who never lived in Afghanistan. Stop blindly putting anything you come across just for the sake of satisfying your anti-Pakistan POV.

Based on these various extensive issues, the content under dispute cannot be re-inserted. Mar4d (talk) 05:27, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• This article is titled "Pakistanis in Afghanistan", it includes permanent Pakistani immigrants and may include all Pakistanis who are inside Afghanistan such as Pakistani prisoners, some of whom may be sentenced to life in prison, and Pakistanis who may be working or living there temporary or indefinately, and etc and etc. There is no limit on that.
• I'm the one who wrote the history section in the Afghans in Pakistan article just the other day and then I copied my own work into this article, and under no circumstances is that copyright violation. You (a.k.a. User:Drspaz, User:Pahari Sahib, User:Raza0007...) and banned User:Siddiqui from Canada are experts in violating copyrights. Just look at one of your violation of copyrights.[2] [3] And, no the history section is not irrelevant. It helps explain how, why and since when Pakistanis are in Afghanistan. Foreign nationals don't grow like trees, they migrate from other countries. You don't like the history section because it talks about Afghanistan and India mostly, the two neighboring nations that you don't like. Btw, you claim to be Hindkowan on your user page, which is a very small minority group of only few millions, and I know everything about this ethnic group. I have several Hindkowan friends, actually they were my employees at a club that I owned, and they were very nice people but you are not acting like them.
• You are wrong. I'm not googling anything, if I was I would be adding 100s of news reports about Pakistani terrorists in Afghanistan but where do you see me doing this? You know why I'm not wasting my time with that? Because today it's very well known that Pakistan is the nation which produces terrorists, should I go and make an article with a long list of Pakistani terrorists? I'm not into this type of things, I prefer to see Pakistanis become known for good things like how Indians are becoming. You have a complete wrong picture of me, I'm not anti-Pakistan as you assume. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. I was minding my business, improving Afghan-related articles and then came to these 2 articles to remove some POVs and misunderstandings but you followed me and decided to add nothing but anti-Afghanistan or anti-Afghan POVs in them. I'm sure that many of the admins and others only laugh when they see this. People these days don't want to read the POVs that you are trying to add into these articles, such as minor news reports about criminal incidents taking place here and there, they just come to read basic stuff like how many Pakistanis are in Afghanistan, when did they first arrive and what is their purpose or status, and etc.--NorthernPashtun (talk) 14:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is one more thing that I want to clear up with you, because I know exactly what is running in your mind. North of Afghanistan is world's largest nation Russia (GDP per capita around $16,000) and Islam is the traditional 2nd largest religion over there. It is also a clean nation with beautiful and educated white people. Between Russia and Afghanistan is Kazakhstan (GDP per capita around $10,000) and Islam is 70% there. Below Afghanistan is your country Pakistan (GDP per capita $2,800) and I don't need to explain what the Muslims down there are doing in your country. Now use common sense, why would Afghans be so much in love with living in Pakistan as you wrongly think? The 1.7 million Afghan refugees that are remaining in Pakistan are mostly those who were born there in the last 30 yrs, or the wealthy ones who consider the security situation in Afghanistan a not good enough yet. In other words, they are considered Pakistanis by birth... just imagine you being born in Australia or else where and when you reach age 25 or so Austrlian government tells you pack up and go live in Pakistan or Afghanistan for the rest of your life. How would you feel? Anway, As Afghanistan's trade and relations are growing with its nothernern neighbors, Pakistan is becoming ignored slowly. It's upto you Pakistanis to work this out, if you keep looking down upon Afghanistan you will be going backwards. Today, Pakistan has no electricity, no gas and very large percentage of its people are unemployed who turn to terrorism just to earn money. On the other hand, Afghanistan is building more bridges and ties with it's other neighbors. Now you tell me who is the sucker?--NorthernPashtun (talk) 15:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]