Talk:Banu Hilal

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Economic ruin

By the way, there should be some way of making it more clear that "spread of nomadism in areas where agriculture had previously been dominant" meant long-term economic decline, and a miniature "collapse of civilization" in much of the region (outside the main coastal cities). In some ways, parts of northern Tunisia and north-eastern Algeria only recovered to the level of the 4th century A.D. in the 20th century, if even then... AnonMoos 18:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed merge of Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya into Banu Hilal

There is no consensus on merging these articles. The stronger arguments were against merging, mainly that the topics are distinct enough and that the topic of Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya was covered in reliable sources; this evidence indicates that the topic is likely notable. The primary argument for merging focused on overlapping content, which is a valid merge reason but did not receive sufficient support from others. Potential POV issues with use of the word "invasion" in the title of Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya were brought up, but arguments about POV and proper article titles are better suited for a move request or RfC specifically addressing that question. Broad accusations of POV forking were not substantiated by sources presented in the discussion. Toadspike (talk) 04:13, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The newly created article is clearly a POV fork that is trying to portray the Hilalan migration as some sort of organized military expedition. M.Bitton (talk) 17:27, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree: There were conflicts such as the battle of Haydaran^[1] and the capture of Kairouan which means that it was clearly a military conflict. Hilal092 (talk) 17:02, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there were battles involved, including those amongst themselves, which need to be put into context, but to describe the Hilalian migration (this is how RS describe it) as some sort of military conflict would be both WP:OR and misleading. This appears to be the main drive behind the POV fork that you created. M.Bitton (talk) 17:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree seems like a pretty fair stand-alone article topic. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:28, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree: Instead of merging it with Banu Hilal article, i propose it should be merged with Taghribat Bani Hilal article. Ahendra (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Ahendra: Apart from your proposal being off-topic, the literary work and the historic events it's based on are clearly distinct and must not be merged. --89.206.112.11 (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree as per nomination: The subjects are literally identical and the recently created article contains nothing that couldn't be added to the existing one. --89.206.112.11 (talk) 21:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the current Banu Hilal#Migration to the Maghreb covers similar scope in comparable detail to the Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya article, and hence the material is best consolidated in one place. Invasion also has the problem of WP:POV, but perhaps that valid point of view should be mentioned in the main article. Klbrain (talk) 10:12, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I noticed that the article doesn't have sources about "Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya", which would be an issue from the WP:Notability perspective, as well as from the WP:OR (published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article). Searching "Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya" in Google produces only one passing mention in a reliable source. PaulT2022 (talk) 03:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Searching 'Hilalian invasion of Ifriqiya' returns a couple of results in Google Books, 'Hilalian Invasion' returns several, as does 'Hilalian invaders' and 'Hilalian invasion of egypt.' I think there are plenty of sources that use this terminology. Some even call it the 'So-called invasion' lending weight to its common use (in my opinion) JeffUK (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about their "invasion of Ifriqiya". What's exactly in those sources that would warrant the creation of an article about a chapter of their journey? M.Bitton (talk) 02:22, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree the so-called 'Hilalian Invasion' includes more than just the Banu Hilal, sources mention the Banu Sulaym 'And other tribes' as being involved, as such this is not a valid target for redirection. The Oxford History of Islam has "[The fatiminds sent the] Hilal and Sulaym, who had proven troublesome in Egypt, to find new abodes in Ifriqiya. The long-term impact of the so-called Hilalian invasion has been hotly debated, " JeffUK (talk) 20:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's called "Hilalian" because it's specific to the Banu Hilal, just like the famous poem about them. The Banu Sulaym and the other tribes didn't enter Ifriqiya until much later. M.Bitton (talk) 02:22, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Gilbert Meynier (2010) L'Algérie cœur du Maghreb classique. De l'ouverture islamo-arabe au repli (658-1518). Paris: La Découverte; p. 53.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Gilbert Meynier (2010) L'Algérie cœur du Maghreb classique. De l'ouverture islamo-arabe au repli (658-1518). Paris: La Découverte; p. 53.

[1]