Talk: Balthier

Balthier and Fran[]

Personally, I never got the impression that there was a romance between them. Is there more evidence than an endgame sketch? If not, this section should either be removed or tagged as speculation.

Is that really Balthier in the Lion Wars? Has it actually been confirmed by SE? As much as I want it to be true, I don't want to get my hopes up. (EDIT: Nevermind, I went searching for information and found that it is now official). --Diablocon 11:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Balthier's story being told by Vaan?[]

I'd say it's more Ashe or Basch's story being told by Balthier. You could take away Vaan and the story wouldn't change a bit. --Crazyswordsman 06:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This is why I like XII, everyone can claim its their story, bar Vaan and Penelo. They're not greedy (unlike a certain character from X). However, considering how much Balthier likes to boast that he's the leading man, I'd say it's his story the most. Diablocon 10:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactlly! Like VI, XII isn't centered around an incompedent douche. It is centered around a group of people, all following their own path, but reach the same goal.}}

Moving to simply "Balthier"[]

I find it very illogical for him to have kept his last name in an alias he chose in order to sever his ties with the past, and to my knowledge, he is never referred to as "Balthier Bunansa" in-game, but as either "Balthier" og his real name (and not a mix of the two). Any objections? --Hecko X 19:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Kefka is never referred to as "Kefka Palazzo." NONE of the characters in FFIV refer to themselves in their full names. Rufus is never called "Rufus Shinra." Lucrecia is never referred to as "Lucrecia Crescent." The only game I know which refers to characters in their full names is FFVIII. --Crazyswordsman 19:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean Hecko. He is either "Balthier" or "Ffamran Mid Bunansa", not a combination of either. Diablocon 19:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Diablo got what I meant, but I was being vague, so sorry about that. What I meant to say is that no official sources related to the game call him "Balthier Bunansa", but rather, it's a "fan created" name based on his family relation to Dr. Cid. The statements made by Balthier in-game would support that he does not use "Bunansa" as a name anymore. --Hecko X 19:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Shadow never used the name "Arrowny" after he became Shadow. Does that mean he's not an Arrowny? --Crazyswordsman 02:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Then why isn't the article called Shadow Arrowny? EXACTLY the same thing. --Hecko X 11:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That could easily be Relm's mother's maiden name, so no. --Auron Kaizer 18:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

He's called Clyde Arrowny, and it mentions that in his page. Is Red XIII called Nanaki? Same thing. --Crazyswordsman 22:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

But what he means is that there is an assumption being made as to his name; it is not necessarily the same as we would expect and since he is never directly referred to as such, said name should not be used as the title of the article. If it must be mentioned, it should be done within the article itself.--Goldberry2000 22:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

CSM, please stick to the question. I am asking you, why isn't the article of Shadow called "Shadow Arrowny"? Please answer that before moving on to something else. And your completely missing the point, so no, it's actually not the same thing. --Hecko X 06:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Shadow's just the nickname he adopted when becoming a detached and crazed ninja. It's not his real name. --Auron Kaizer 15:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Which is exactly what Hecko is trying to say. The name Balthier is just a name he adopted when he ran away, it is not his real name. As such, he is only Balthier, he never kept the Bunansa when he became Balthier. Diablocon 17:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

AzureDrake: have you ever noticed that if last names are mentioned in games, it's usually a villain's name it's referencing to. There are hardly any games which refer to heroes with their last name (excluding manuals)

Why couldn't he have been the main character?[]

This is little more than a rant, but I seriously hate Vaan. In fact I hated that little shitless faggot so much I couldn't even finish the desert levels, and my copy of FF12 sits at home gathering dust. I hope Vaan gets impaled by a long steel lance and is left to die there slowly bleeding to death.

So why couldn't Bathier have been the main character? He actually has relationships with the villians and is much more chusial to the overall plot than a certain faggot listed in the last paragraph. Hell, he is even a much cooler and badass character - he killed his own father, how much more badass can you be?

Oh wait I know the answer. It's because Bathier is not at all androgenous or chick faced and may in fact be an actually interesting character. Square abandoned all manlyness with their leading men back with Squall. (67.81.84.210 14:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

		Diablocon - No, the question is; who art thou, ham planks? Shanks! I meant shanks TALK - 16:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
		You do know that Balthier pretty much is the main character, right? If his claims of being the Leading Man isn't enough, the fact that a lot of the story revolves around him should be the other clue. Just because Vaan is the character you first control does not mean he is the main character. FFXII shows that every character has their part to play in the overall story. Plus, Balthier didn't want to kill his father, eh was just forced to.

		BlueHighwind Q? TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		This 67.81.84.210 sounds like a fine fellow. He must be a real wise genius, and handsome to boost. Couldn't agree more, Vaan deserves to get locked away in a maximum security prison and raped until he looks like an over-loved hunk of swiss cheese. =)

Vaan is in the story because every game needs an [Insert insult here] first character. If not, Balthier wouldn't have been so badass. Think it like this: Vaan is there to contrast with balthier and make him look cooler. We all know that there can't be a game with all badass characters. If all of them would be cool, then none of them would be. Aramis 19:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to argue. If you have a lame character, and a bad-ass character, and put them in one room, the lamer will drag down the bad-ass's bad-assery. Think of the original Star Wars movies. They were awesome. Tehy made the name Star Wars awesome. Now, you add the prequels in. Adding them to the name of Star Wars makes Star Wars seem lamer, doesn't it? Now, I was just using Star Wars as an analogy. But my point is, lame characters (like Vaan) do not make awesome kick-ass characters (Balthier) any more awesome by standing by them. They make them lamer. It's like when you add a negative number to a positive one: it reduces.This is why Vaan shouldn't exist. Because he's dragging down Balthier. Darth Anathema 02:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

		BlueHighwind Q? TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		No. Its actually when Balthier isn't around Vaan that he's the most badass. Play War of the Lions, you'll see then.

Okay, this was (clearly) a while ago, but The Star Wars analogy, if you watched 1, then 4, you would say 4 was great. If you watched only 4, you would say it was alright. you wouldn't "add" awesomeness/badassness together, you would contrast them. Besides, Who was the main character in Moby Dick? If you answered "The Captain" then you would realise Balthier would thus be the main character here. If you answered "Ishmael" then I would understand you saying Vaan is the main character as they fill the same general purpose to the plot, by which I mean little save for exposition. --Anon00:38, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

???[]

I would just like to say, I, really, hate, this, guy. That is all. 69.9.211.143 03:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

		Diablocon - No, the question is; who art thou, ham planks? Shanks! I meant shanks TALK - 14:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
		AK, is that you?

		Crazyswordsman - Final Fantasy VI, because Drake says he wants to link to FF7 every day, which is bad because that game is so far inferior to FF6. TALK - 17:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
		Whoever it is, he's pending for a bending.

		Otherarrow - This is a Dragon. TALK - {{{time}}}
		Ok, so you going to punish this guy and/or girl because they don't argee with you?

		BlueHighwind Q? TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		No Crazyswords, you must remain the respectable leader. I will kill this fool. So guys, Extra Crispy or Luca Brasi?

		Crazyswordsman - Final Fantasy VI, because Drake says he wants to link to FF7 every day, which is bad because that game is so far inferior to FF6. TALK - 20:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
		I was joking. BH, by now you should know that you should never take me seriously.

		Xepscern - It's Morphin Time!! TALK - {{{time}}}
		But we should take seriously that someone doesn't like Balthier. Whoever he/she is, we must hunt them down, and force them to play Crystal Chronicles for 20 consecutive hours. That is the ultimate punishment.

Zodiac Sign[]

Hey, is it ok to put he's a Leo, since it's revealed in FFT for the PSP? --71.58.125.66 22:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Time travel[]

i just unlocked Blathier in WOTL (WOOT!) and from how hes talking, it would seem as if he had time traveld, saying that he might set things right. He also calls himself the skypirate, even though airships have not been aeound for over 1000 years. He says, "I found it once-laid my hands on it, and look where its gotten me. If I find it again, i can put things back as they were." maybe he showed up as a result of a botched time travel job? just a theroy, leave me a comment on my talk page if you have a discrepency. Superaeon35 16:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Balthier and Fran Quote?[]

There's a quote on the page that's been bugging me: The one right above the Stats section.

The source says that it's from FFXII, meaning the first game, but I've never exactly heard the line from anywhere in the game, unless there's a secret ending, which I doubt. (I've also searched a translation of the Japanese script, but there's nothing there that's of the same meaning)

Can anyone clarify? DVardonir 09:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it might be a Revenant Wings quote. I don't really know, but I have a hunch. --BlueHighwind 14:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's from RW. I inserted the quote without the game source, and perhaps the person who put Final Fantasy XII after it should have knew what they were doing before they guessed. *stares* 8bit 21:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's "Mid" not "mied"[]

His middle name was revealed to have been spelled as "Mid" not "mied" --68.32.149.132 06:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I have the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Character Ultimania which gives his middle name as "mied" at page 466. Do you have any official sources that could back your claim that his middle name is revealed to be "Mid"? Bluer 09:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's called the -official- FFXII site. It says, Balthier, born "Ffamran Mid Bunansa" His middle named is spelled -exactly- the same as Cid's grandson's name in FFV. Stop changing it to the incorrect info.--68.32.149.132 23:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm? The official site: http://www.finalfantasyxii.com/. Calls him simply "Balthier". --BlueHighwind 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm still going to keep editing it, whether you want to believe me or not. It wouldn't be spelled "Mid" if it were a nod to FFV's Mid.--68.32.149.132 00:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I never said I didn't believe the "Mid" issue, though it is curious that you would bring up fraud without prompting. But your evidence is unconvincing. Where does it say that on the official site? Bluerfn has given support to his claim. Where is yours? A link would help. --BlueHighwind 00:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Final_Fantasy_XII Care to scroll down Highwind? You'll see it's "Mid" not some silly misprint in a book.--68.32.149.132 00:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff25/bluerfn/Picture.jpg
"Silly misprint", indeed. Bluer 01:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Did Square Enix make the book or was it someone like BradyGames? I won't believe it unless it was an official book, not some odd translation.--68.32.149.132 01:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, that uses Balflear. They changed that to Balthier, why couldn't they change Mied to Mid for the English one? Dazuro 01:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Precisely, Daz, why not? It's just a case of him being stubborn and not accepting the English translation.--68.32.149.132 01:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That said .... I'm not seeing Mid on the official site anywhere. It'd make sense to be named after Mid Previa, yes, but I see no evidence of it whatsoever. I also see no evidence that (at least in English) it's Mied, but that's another story entirely. Dazuro 01:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Even though it's another Wiki site, I have the link in this area. It shows Mid there.--68.32.149.132 01:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination. Never mind the fact that last I checked it said mied, you could easily edit it yourself to support your argument. I'm all for Mid, but you're gonna have to do better than that if you wanna convince anyone that matters. Dazuro 01:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

http://static.benippon.com/shop/images/4757522061.jpg
Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1 Character is pretty much the comprehensive character information when it comes to completing our character information. It's published in Japan in Japanese by Square Enix, as written in the cover, so it's pretty much canon since its from the source. To be realistic, that's your most official source for Balthier's name - and I have to date yet to see an English publication of his name. That said, you can go ahead and continue your edit war, but it won't end well. Bluer 01:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Why are you ignoring the fact that they changed his goddamned name for the English one already? Mied is not even remotely reliable. If you want to call him Mied, you have to call him Balflear, since they both have the same source. Find a single non-Ultimania source that confirms the spelling, and you'll have a point. Dazuro 01:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Dazuro has a good point. Currently, no English translation that gives Balthier's name as Mied or Mid has been given. Perhaps Mid/Mied should be removed until a reliable English source is found? 8bit 01:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

We use the English source, but when the English source is non-existent, we compliment it with the Japanese ones. Search our character pages and search the English Square Enix publications. You'll be surprise at the large number of surnames missing. Eg. Where do you think we found Cecil's surname "Harvey", anyway?

But course, I'm gonna stop arguing here since I already proved enough visually and the other party has nothing but empty claims to convince me :)

To 8bit: That's not a good approach. When we do that, we'll have to remove other character pages that use surnames derive from the Japanese source. Bluer 01:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Like who? I'm fairly certain Harvey is not Japan-only, and I can't think of anyone that is... 5's maybe? Dazuro 01:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Zodiac Sign again...[]

It's ok with me to put Leo as his zodiacal sign in the War of the Lions part of the article, as it is stated in that game, but don't you think it should be clarified that Leo may not be his true sign? After all, you gotta remember that in Tactics, Cloud was shown to be an Aquarius, when FFVII booklet gives his birthday as August 19, making him a Leo. Winged Lion 01:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't know Balthier's date of birth, so I see no reason to assume that his Zodiac Sign would be an inconsistency of some kind. --BlueHighwind 01:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Think about it for a minute. Cloud is actually a Leo, but in Tactics is an Aquarius. Maybe Balthier is vice-versa.Xepscern Highwind

Dissidia[]

can anyone verify that he was going to be in dissidia? It seems like something a fan might of put up here without the means to back it up. Exdeath64 21:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

It's from the Dissidia Ultimania guide. Drake Clawfang 21:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Last Name[]

		Judge Balthier TALK - 17:01, April 9, 2010 (UTC) And so, people, I hope you enjoy your stay in prison, while I rule the free world, baby! I'm building my city, people, on rock 'n' roll!
		I was wondering, Could Balthier's last name, Bunansa, be a reference to that cowboy show, Bonanza? If so, the connection is clearly about guns, i think.

		Judge Balthier TALK - 16:25, April 11, 2010 (UTC) And so, people, I hope you enjoy your stay in prison, while I rule the free world, baby! I'm building my city, people, on rock 'n' roll!
		Since no one has objected...I think I will add this bit.

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 16:54, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
		Removed. The names are only vaguely similar, the allusion is incredibly thin (guns), and its likely a coincidence.

Again[]

		Judge Balthier - Hamshanks! TALK - 17:10, April 14, 2010 (UTC) "Well, at least your sword is to the point."
		So what does the japanese word "Bunanza" mean? Ok it might not be related to the Western but it could be related to the word "Bonanza" which could mean getting luck in unexpected places or something that's valuable and/or rewarding. I don't know where this ties in with Balthier's character exactly, but ever since I seen the word Bunansa I have always made the connection that it was related to Bonanza. It's not about the trivia anymore, I would simply like to know what Bunanza is. Also, what does something that is thirty-forty years old have to do with anything?

What does the word Dalmasca mean, or the word Basch, Ashelia, etc? Not meaning to be mean, but some of the FF names could just be random names, don't always have to be significant. Doreiku Kuroofangu 18:45, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Pound that[]

		Adonzo - I don't claim to have a degree in doctorology TALK - 04:17, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
		Anybody else notice the fist bump that Balthier and Fran did after beating the Undying? Made my day, it did. Best part of a rather meh ending.

Agreed. While Fang and Vanille have a variation of it, I'd still say Fran and Baltheir pulled it off the best. ZazComet 05:48, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Musical theme[]

Having his name appear in "A Promise with Balthier" does not really make this 36-second piece his "theme." This piece was clearly written to fit the dynamics of one cutscene (post-Garamsythe, when Penelo is offered Balthier's handkerchief and the captured are taken away, Ba'Gamnan watching everything in a corner). You'll understand if you watch the scene. "Destiny" would be a better choice if a theme is to be designated to him. "A Promise with Balthier" does reprise a part of "Destiny," but that only serves to prove that "Destiny" has a stronger association with him. It reprises again in just about every important scene involving Balthier, Revenant Wings included. Just my two cents.

Agreed. You could say "A Promise with Balthier" is more or less a song made for the cutscene related, something like "Tears of the Moon" in VIII made for that Lunar Cry scene. Personally "Destiny" to me works with every tragic-ridden character. I believe I heard it with Basch, Gabranth and/or Larsa too. ^BLUER一番 09:38, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Later life[]

I'm creating this section to discuss [1]. IMO it's nothing special. FFT takes place after FFXII and the Bunansa family appears in both games. It's worth nothing I think. The Vagrant 10:41, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

There might be descendants. They could also be a different branch of the Bunansa family. There's a lot more to it when you think about it. ^BLUER一番 16:09, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed - there's no way for definite that it's Balthier's kids - Balthier is the third son of Cid, who knows how many kids they in turn had? Balthier could have died an old bachelor for all we know. - Paramina 17:21, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Didn't the other two sons die before the events of the game? The Vagrant 20:58, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it is ever stated what happened to them. Correct me if I am wrong.--Otherarrow 21:05, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

In our own planet it's common for many unrelated people to have the same surname. Bunansa probably wasn't only used by Balthier's family. It was probably just a common Ivalicician surname. Discordius 05:25, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Quickening[]

		Hotdragon 295 - The people and the friends that we have lost, or the dreams that have faded...never forget them. TALK - It is really...you?
		No, he say Fires of War and nothing else

Element of Treachery/Emperor's Starfall[]

Does anybody else notice any similarities between the sigils/meteor used in both of these attacks, or is that just me/coincidence? Balthier's sigil surrounds the target before the meteor is called (and then onto the target and sigil), while the Emperor conjures the circle around himself (which does look similar, if a bit more detailed) and calls the meteor (and smaller fireballs) down upon the target, but could it have been possible for Starfall's animation to be drawn from Element of Treachery?

		Blippy TALK - Blippy (talk) 23:20, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
		Unless you're talking about the Dissidia version of the Emperor's Starfall, that's impossible because Final Fantasy II predates Final Fantasy XII by 18 years. On the other hand, if you were referring to the Dissidia version of Starfall, the similarities are probably a coincidence, as the Emperor's Starfall resembles the original version from Final Fantasy II more than Element of Treachery.

umm[]

I feel a relation to snow because the keep going on about how the hero/leading man never dies, although i do find Balthier less snarky (he was my favorite xii character)

Actually, you should feel Snow's relation to Balthier's as FFXII was quicker than FFXIII, but yes, they fall under the same character archetype.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 18:10, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Moniker[]

Is "Balthier" a moniker like "Lightning" that Claire Farron uses? If so would it happen that "Balthier", is the first character in the mainstream of Final Fantasy series to use moniker to identify himself?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 18:10, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

There's Shadow in FFVI. And Edge in FFIV. Although Edge doesn't mean to hide his true identity though does he, I don't know, maybe it's a nickname. Only posh people in FFXII have surnames, so Ashe and Basch and Balthier's original name, whereas regular riff raff like Vaan and Penelo and Fran have just first name. So if Balthier didn't want to look too posh he would not use a surname when changing his name, so it's a bit different from Lightning. I think "Balthier" can be considered his new full name.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 18:15, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Do you think adding a Trivia bit to Shadow's article that he is the first character to use a moniker to throw his past behind, Kelt (and others)?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 18:23, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

We could probably list a lot of 'firsts'. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 18:26, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I am not 100% sure Shadow is the first one, or if it is a notable enough "first". I'm trying to think others. Faris isn't Faris's real name in FFV but that's because she didn't know what her real name is until later.

Names are interesting though. I might have something to contribute on that if there was a place... like in Japan surnames are a pretty modern invention, like it wasn't that long ago where only people who had been granted a surname by the Emperor had a surname and everyone else just had one name. So only "posh" people had surnames......same as in FFXII...... Where could I mention this great nugget of info eh. :E Bet there is more, I think the whole name-changing thing also has a significance in Japanese culture, because in Spirited Away Yubaba changes Chihiro's name and says that she controls her as long as she has her true name etc maybe that's based on some cultural belief.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 18:32, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Signature Gun[]

I'm looking at various renders of Balthier and try to identify the gun he is depicted with at most times. He seems to have custom Betelgeuse in his FFXII, Revenant Wings, Tactics: The War of the Lions, and Itadaki renders/artworks, while Altair seems to be the gun for Balthier in the iOS version of Theatrhythm. Would that qualify Betelgeuse as Balthier's signature weapon?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 20:43, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Quotes[]

Could we add a quotes section, like the one Rikku has? I played through the game and didn't realize how awesome some of the things he says were until I was about finished... (I like the one about the prison repository of wrested relics and raiments :P) Arcus II (talk) 02:48, November 8, 2013 (UTC)Arcus_II

The quotes sections for FFX and FFXIII characters are for battle quotes. FFXII doesn't have battle lines, apart from Quickening scenes. You can add quotes to the random quotes thing to the mainpage, though (this thing). Personally I think general quotes might work, but I suppose the trouble is to narrow it down to what quotes can be had; I can see someone wanting to add all of a character says to a quotes page... With battles quotes the scope is clearly defined.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 02:55, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

That was quick... Okay, thanks. Maybe I'll compile everything he says as I play it again. Arcus II (talk) 02:59, November 8, 2013 (UTC)Arcus_II

What I meant was that I don't think the wiki wants to compile everything a person says, which is why there are only battle quotes. But if someone wanted to start a quotes project, it would need to include more than one character.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 09:39, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Yes... *ahem* joke... Arcus II (talk) 15:58, November 8, 2013 (UTC)Arcus_II

Plot Hole?[]

Upon encountering Basch, and knowing Basch IS Basch, how does Balthier not know Gabranth exists? Both were Judges, surely he would know that Basch isn't Gabranth.

The same goes in reverse when Gabranth is looking for Balthier. Gabranth would know that the sky pirate Ba'gamnan is looking for is "Balthier", but wouldn't he correct Ba'Gamnan and point out he was a judge? TheGreatKoala (talk) 15:07, November 23, 2018 (UTC)

Balthier was plain Judge, not that special unlike Gabranth who was a Judge Magister. There are many Judges, you kill a bunch during the game. JBed (talk) 17:24, November 23, 2018 (UTC)