- March 19, 2008 anti-war protest (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)
Consensus was clearly in favor of deletion by a margin of thirteen to six, the arguments to keep were largely baseless in policy which means most of them should have been ignored, the admin claimed that there was validity in the reliable sourcing of the article however that only established verifiability not notability, the article clearly covers a very small protest and the article has a lot of original research and filler based on undeleted protests such as the Berkeley Marine Corps Recruiting Center controversy, the article simply does not establish notability and makes uncited original research claims such as "interruptions at the IRS were evident" and POV issues with extended quotes favoring the subject such as "I'm letting the nation know that the troops are against the war, and that there's a whole culture of dissent and we're letting the nation know that exists." with no opposing quotes. Many editors cited that the article reads like a news article and it does, this was discredited by the administrator due to it being an essay, however it is a frequently cited essay and clearly a policy by precedent. This rationale to keep by User:SchuminWeb states "These events did receive significant news coverage, but this article needs a LOT of work to bring it up to standard. If it sounds like news, that means we just need to go through a few more rewrites." However the user fails to point out any of the claimed "significant" coverage. This argument by User:DKalkin makes no mention of policy whatsoever "I'm not impressed by the current state of the article, but it seems to me that it could be improved so that it would be worth keeping. The March 19, 2008 protests were a break from demonstrations on past anniversaries of the invasion of Iraq in that civil disobedience replaced the mass march completely as a strategy. If the article included some of the context, the debates in the antiwar movement leading up to the demonstrations, IVAW's call not to distract from Winter Soldier, Cindy Sheehan's unsuccessful attempt to put together a unified march, etc., I think it would go beyond a news piece and be worthy of an encyclopedia" And is entirely conjecture providing no policy arguments or any links to the claims he makes it furthermore exposed the protests as dysfunctional unsuccessful and not a single unified event which goes to show that its really minor in scope, User:Nwwaew makes simply asks this question "Does having an article about the event in The Guardian count as notable enough?" with a link to a guardian artile about the DC protest only which does not mention the any other actions mentioned in the article that appear to be coincidence and undeleted to the DC protest, the article she links to only speaks of the methodology used in the protests and shows that it was a small minor one as there wasn't even a march. User:Astuteoak's arguement is entirely as Stephen Colbert once put from the gut not the brain as it is entirely unsourced opinion "The protests in D.C. and other cities absolutely merit an encyclopedic article. The main protest took place on a weekday (3/19 was a Wednesday) and the traffic disruptions, demonstrations, and police arrests drew enourmous attention of people who work in D.C. including House and Senate members. The Iraq war and the protests are VERY significant. Since the protest many Congress members now appear reluctant to be seen supporting the war. On May 15, 132 House Republicans even voted "present" rather than "yes" for supporting war funding. This is unprecedented since the war started 5 years ago" and should be disregarded, User:ragesoss exclaims "Has enough significant coverage to firmly establish notability. The coverage goes well beyond "Routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism", the types of news singled out in WP:NOT as inappropriate. Even if much less significant than other protests, this and other medium-scale protests are of lasting interest and merit encyclopedia coverage" but again the user herself establishes this as not a major event and calls it medium, wikipedia has no article son medium protests, wikinews does, an argument by 4.88.22.120 that was unsigned by a unregistered user simple said "keep the article" which is not an argument and even if it where unregistered users don't get a say. So off the bat the administrator should have ignored two of these keep votes and that leaves the tally of consensus at 13 to 4 a very wide margin (and broad consensus IMHO), and those are "deletes" based on solid policy and their associated arguments, these include that it fails WP:N, violates WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOT, User:Ohconfucius argument probably puts it best with "The event seems not substantially different to any of the protests which have gone before; its scale is also not great; currently, there is a lot of superfluous detail which would only appear in news articles but is not otherwise encyclopaedia-worthy" Myheartinchile (talk) 18:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It should also be noted that two different users felt strongly enough to contact the admin independently due to this surprising "no consensus" result.Myheartinchile (talk) 19:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse as closer. Without delving into the entire nomination, I will re-iterate my position that while there was a majority of !votes to delete, it did not constitute a consensus. The nominator asserts that the keep !votes were baseless in policy - the same might be said for the majority of delete !votes that cited WP:NOTNEWS, which is an essay and not policy. As there were valid arguments in favor of keeping the material (and a reasonable suggestion to merge elsewhere) I felt that the argument to delete was not strong enough to constitute a consensus. Shereth 18:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- NotNews arguments by registered users are far more valid than WP:HOPELESS arguments and keeps by unregistered arguments.Myheartinchile (talk) 19:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:NOTNEWS is an essay, but WP:NOT#NEWS is policy (a part of WP:NOT). Most opiners were citing the policy, not the essay, in fact, I can't see even one that linked to the essay. This makes me unsure how well you actually reviewed the discussion; please revisit this and comment. GRBerry 19:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Funny the difference a # can make, and in this case the difference makes for some egg on my face - thank you for pointing that out. In my defense, I did review the discussion with due diligence (at least in my opinion), as generally a single character doesn't make so large a change in the result. Allow me a little bit to reconsider. Shereth 19:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and delete. There was a clear consensus to delete, more than two to one. Whilst AfD isn't just a numbers game there was no good reason to ignore the clear consensus as the arguments to delete were well within policy and guidelines. RMHED (talk) 19:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist at AfD. The article is now significantly different from the one at AfD. Benjiboi has expanded it greatly, so I think the only fair thing to do now would be to relist and see what the consensus is for this article in its new state. RMHED (talk) 21:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I really don't see what a third listing on AFD will accomplish (the AFD was relisted once). It's too soon. As it is, this deletion review discussion pulled in most of the same people from the AFD, and another AFD will just pull those people back over. This whole ordeal has been going on for two weeks now, needs to just end already. SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - after reviewing the comment made by GRBerry I have concluded that the no consensus closure is still valid. WP:NOT#NEWS being policy notwithstanding, in the AfD an argument made by ragesoss stated "The coverage goes well beyond 'Routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism', the types of news singled out in WP:NOT as inappropriate" in refutation of the argument. On the other hand, the vast majority of those citing WP:NOT did nothing to indicate in what way the article was in violation of the policy, and rather, they simply stated (paraphrased) "Per policy". I still interpret the strength of the arguments to delete versus those to keep to be insufficient to be called consensus and stand by my closure. Shereth 19:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse original decision. People need to remember that AFD is not a vote, so while the number of people of various different opinions might certainly be taken into consideration, it is not the end-all for deciding the outcome of an AFD. The flow of the discussion is far more important than the number of individuals involved. "No consensus" was a decision that was properly reached. Additionally, I question whether the nominator has acted in good faith in nominating this article for deletion review, considering that within a day after the AFD closed with a no-consensus, the nominator added a PROD tag to the article, and attempted to add {{Afd2}} to the article (but failed in its implementation) prior to taking it here. SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How did i not act in good faith, i can't see why i shouldn't be able to relist it for deletion by prod, it was removed, the system works, i never attempted to add afd2 the article i simply accidentally clicked save instead of preview as i wanted to set up a second deletion attempt and wanted to write the argument first then list it, but i changed my mind in favor of deletion review when the prod was removed and decided that was not the way to go.Myheartinchile (talk) 19:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close. WP:NOT#NEWS leaves a very wide swath for editor discretion (it only mentions "Routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism" as the kinds of things that are explicitly inappropriate), and the idea that most of the keep comments were "largely baseless in policy" a poor characterization of the actual comments. If wants to pick nits, many of the delete comments were even less policy based. The discussion was about the spirit of WP:NOT#NEWS and where the line should be drawn, and there very clearly was not a consensus that this article runs afoul of the spirit of it. (It certainly doesn't run afoul of the literal policy.)--ragesoss (talk) 19:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete - notability is only an indicator, not a free pass. Sceptre (talk) 19:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn closure (delete). I think this was a good faith attempt to close the discussion but it does not appear that the closer gave consideration to the pattern of comments. All opinions offered after the relisting recommended deletion except 1 anonymous comment (which was properly discounted) and one early commenter who declined to change his/her early opinion. Those opinions were expressed in light of all the previous evidence and comments. The article itself did not change substantively during the relisting period, leading me to believe that that the later opinions are a more reliable indicator of the community's collective judgment in this case. This was clearly a close decision and I can not fault the closer but I do read the consensus differently. Rossami (talk) 20:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. Zomg the IRS workers looked out of their windows!. Clearly a rack for hanging coat chaped anti-war slogans on. Completely non-notable as a separate article, which is what notability is all about. It warrants a few lines somewhere else, and that's all in my opinion. MickMacNee (talk) 20:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overtun and delete As I said in the AFD, "Wikipedia is not the news. Momentary headlines do not make for Encyclopedic notability. Just another anti war protest. It is not notable, and putative usefulness of the information is not sufficient to have an article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. We are an encyclopedia, not the Anti War Movement Archive/Annals/News." In evoking "notnews," I for one was saying that there is no notability and that all there was to the article was a recap of the news. While the others in the discussion should have more carefully phrased and justified there arguments, the lack of notability is clear. Stating that we are "not the news" was a statement indicating a clear evidence lack of notabilityor significance. Furthermore, the "keep" arguments failed in their attempt to assert either notability or significant media coverage. While one make argue the weakness in basing deletion on WP:NOT, the keep arguments were weaker still. Finally, the original delete nomination argument-- lack of notability or significance, was not refuted in any of the keep arguments. Some made arguments of usefulness, or claimed a single mention by the Telegraph met the requirement for significant media coverage. It did not. There was an argument of some sort of inheritable notbility because other protests were notable that was not convincing. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 20:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- comment, have i mentioned the Washington Times calls the protest "limited" "Protests marking the fifth anniversary of the Iraq war today included no Hollywood stars and drew only a fraction of the tens of thousands that typically come to the nation's capital to protest wars."[3]Myheartinchile (talk) 20:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Since when do Hollywood stars make or break a protest? Many notable protests have lacked "star power". Not incredibly relevant here. SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- oh and lets not forget various users insist on considering the Berkeley Marine Corps Recruiting Station Controversy with this article, and at that it is laughable, since the sources say that the police outnumbered the protestors![4]Myheartinchile (talk) 20:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I for one agreed with that removal on its face, because unless there was something special about the Berkeley demonstration on March 19 compared to other days, it should get a bye here. SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. As Iraq war protests go, this is fairly non-notable. As most it warrants a mention within Protests against the Iraq War. As a matter of perspetive, consider whether a similar individual protest against the Vietnam War would be covered in an individual article. The arguments in favor of deletion are well-founded in policy (including WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NOTE). Further, as 'a series of autonomous actions', rolling them into a single article is highly questionable. The arguments made to delete are sufficient in both merit and relative number (as compared to arguments to keep) to establish consensus. --Clubjuggle T/C 21:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse and expand. This is more than news and the article would do well to compare how these coordinated protests paled in comparisons to the original massive worldwide ones. This is a good example of how wikipedia can cover a topic that paper encyclopedias would have to justify space for - a thoughtful look at the subject and meaningful content is available as the protests took place at least throughout the United States and likely elsewhere. It may make sense to instead move the article to Fifth anniversary anti-war protest as it seems the first, fifth, tenth, fifteen, etc anniversaries of events get extra media coverage as this did. This article is a split off Protests against the Iraq War and remerging the material into that already huge article seems also unhelpful but cleaning it up and ensuring content is relevant would be. Banjeboi 21:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)\[reply]
Kill that article! The article was obviously kept under inexperience, bad judgement, personal bias, and/or, at worst (probably not), intoxication; consenus clearly pointed to Delete. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 23:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse as no consensus; this AfD is a complete zoo; many people seem to be in favor of deletion, but others want to keep the article. In the original AfD, I voted to delete the article, but it doesn't appear there was clear consesus here. Some of the other voters here have said that the keep votes in the AfD were baseless. Some of them were, but others did have base and were contributed by registered users. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 18:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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- I left him a note suggesting a rephrase. Dlohcierekim 02:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn closure (delete). I entirely agree with the comments of User:Rossami, who incidentally did not participate in the AfD. I believe a consensus existed to delete of 13:4. Of course, the views of an single purpose account and an anonymous IP editor's views are rightly automatically discounted. One also pointed to a Guardian news article as being evidence of notability, but that article clearly frames it in terms of the war's 5th anniversary. Whilst I agree that a lot hinges on the subject's plentiful news coverage, it was obvious to me the news reports were not sufficient to confer a real-life notability out of context of the Iraq War and the ensuing protests, whether sporadic or regular, whether concentrated or dispersed. The two arguments that the article "could be improved" should not be allowed to over-ride the landslide majority view - aside from neutralising its newsy tone, and severely pruning back into a stub by removing the original research and bias, I do not see any improvement of the article is possible by its existence independent of the abovementioned context(s).Ohconfucius (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I've just started doing some research and there seems to be little shortage of reliable sources for this - if anyone finds anything please leave a note on the article talk page and I will add it ASAP if no one beats me to it. Banjeboi 03:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. Consensus was clearly to delete per WP:NOT NEWS, there was no consensus anywhere else. In this case the debate was misinterpreted by the closing admin. MrPrada (talk) 05:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn & Relist I was going to vote overturn & delete according to AFD consensus, but my opinion now is heavily influenced by the status quo, as March 19, 2008 anti-war protest is currently a nicely sourced article and has been dramatically improved compared with the version that got nominated for deletion. I think the new version doesn't fail WP:NOT#NEWS, but that matter is for another AfD to decide. --PeaceNT (talk) 07:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete The consensus in the original AfD was to delete the article, especially as several of the keep votes were WP:CRYSTAL violations (eg, that the article should be kept as these protests may one day be judged notable). Nick Dowling (talk) 08:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- endorse close for now or barring that relist The article is well-sourced and I'm not sure there's enough of a NOTNEWS issue to justify deletion. PeaceNT makes a good argument for relisting. JoshuaZ (talk) 09:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. There's plenty of consensus to delete and both sides had several "votes" which could be discounted (e.g. by IPs). Stifle (talk) 10:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. If this is deleted could you please userfy it to me so I can rename for 5th anniversary and repost? Thanks. Banjeboi 10:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC) [reply]
- Comment. Has anyone given the article a look-over again recently? Benjiboi has done a great job reworking the article. SchuminWeb (Talk) 13:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The actual added detail about the actual protests that took place are just as insignificant as the ones there originally, and only serving to underline the lack of notability of this 'day'. A pink bed being rolled down a street? Come on. The rest of the additions are pure article bloat, with more free advertising for protest groups, more coatracked slogans and quotes, more backstory content which is duplicated in many other aticles, e.g. the bits on Sen. Feinstein, the bits about war spending etc etc. The stone cold fact is, the addtitions are not adding to the notability of the subject title, and merely starting to make it look more like an indiscriminate list, so the ultimate result might be merge elsewhere for some parts which don't deserve their own article. MickMacNee (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That bed being rolled down the street was one chapter of the national group Code Pink, and that action was one of dozens that day in Washington DC so it seems appropriate, it's sourced and simply lets the facts speak for themselves. ___ happened. I'm puzzled that it seems like an indiscriminate list, at all. These were coordinated protest events done to highlight the 5th anniversary and, so far, the only events I added all occured on the same date although significant events also were held prior to and after the same date. Banjeboi 19:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Transwiki WP:NOT#NEWS states that Wikipedia considers the historical notability of persons and events. There is nothing in this article that says anything about the impact of the demonstrations. And nothing stated in the keep votes indicates that there is anything to say. Even so, wikinews could likely use the article as, as the article has far more content than [5]. So deletion should not take place before a transwiki process has been carried out. Taemyr (talk) 13:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. This article is a split off Protests against the Iraq War and it also does delve into how the protests were widespread and more thoughtful perspective on what impact they had is likely given they were covered by nearly every major news outlet. Were they as significant as the 2003 protests, no, but the sources and thus, article delves into possible reasons for it. Banjeboi 20:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no consensus closure and therefore default keep per fairly strong arguments to keep (it's not a vote). Organized and referenced article with real world notability and interest. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and Delete It is always a pleasure to agree with editors of the caliber of Ohconfucius and Rossami, who (inter alia) have clearly expressed the reason for reversing this close. Eusebeus (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Wow, that really has been expanded since the original AfD. It'd be kind of pointless to delete it now I suppose. I need to put that rescue tag on all of the school articles that get nominated for deletion if it works that well! GO-PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 18:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Yes, I have reviewed the article since the AfD. No, I do not think that the changes have addressed the fundamental concerns raised in the deletion discussion. Rossami (talk) 23:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete I rarely see the point of overturning a no-consensus close, since the article can be renominated; but this article had already been relisted, and all newcomers to the discussion had spoken for delete. So would I, except that I thought the deletion would be so obvious it would be unnecessary. DGG (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no consensus since the article has changed a bit since the AFD, and is tagged for more work. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 01:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no consensus because... it's clear that there wasn't a consensus. More substantively, I object to the characterization of my quoted comment as without basis in policy. The logic here seems to be that if an editor cites WP:NOT#NEWS to argue for deletion, that's based in policy, but if a second editor gives reasons why WP:NOT#NEWS does not apply, that's not based in policy. This makes no sense. Kalkin (talk) 13:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. This would set a troubling precedent for what is a "Clear no consensus". Keeping an article like this, when you have 12 or so delete !votes (8 of which say the same thing, e.g. consensus, which in and of itself is rare), and only 4 keeps (1 of of which cannot be counted) and calling that no consensus? Meanwhile, you have notable biographies, articles with much more value then in this case, that have say, 7 keeps, and 4 deletes, and we seem to default to delete just because the four editors said "Not notable". This makes no sense to me. Certainly the widest standard of inclusionism I've yet encountered at two or so years at AFD/DRV. I still this the consensus was not correctly identified in this case, but if we are going to uphold the decision, then this will certainly set a precedent for future deletion debate that I for one will refer to both at AFD, and here if the articles are deleted. MrPrada (talk) 15:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn/delete. The AfD looks like a consensus to delete, and the 'article' deserves no better. Relisting would only create yet more heat. dorftrottel (talk) 16:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no consensus - If they want to relist for another AfD I would have no objections, but the first one had enough people who thought that historical relevance was sufficiently established. I've got my concerns about recentism, but at least it's worth saving the edit history and keeping a redirect page. --Explodicle (talk) 14:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no consensus/keep the article due to the great improvements in the article during this deletion review which have made this a worthy article and not the same one that was considered in the AFD. Davewild (talk) 07:45, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering the current breadth and depth of media coverage demonstrated in the current, expanded version of the article, there is not longer any real question of either non-notability or WP:NOT#NEWS violation. The original close could have gone either way, although I think the closer made the better choice. At this point, keeping or relisting are the only options (and relisting will almost certainly result in a near-consensus to keep). I'd like to think this article would make people think twice about knee-jerk deletion nominations based on WP:NOT#NEWS for anything except things that are similar to what the actual policy says is not appropriate, but I'm sure that's too much to hope for.--ragesoss (talk) 21:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I would tend to agree that there is often a fine line between what is newsworthy and what is notable, as the existence of news articles is most frequently used to argue in favour of the notabilty of a subject. However, I am not convinced there is anything "knee-jerk" about this particular AfD. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse as no consensus per above. Closing admin followed policy. no consensus to delete in AfD Frank Anchor Talk to me (R-OH) 02:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure as no consensus. The arguments that this is a WP:NOT#NEWS violation are clearly no longer true, if they ever were. The article has been so vastly improved by Benjiboi since the nomination that it's not the same article. Very well sourced and of continued national importance as indicated by the 2008 election issues on Iraq and press coverage. There was no strength of argument in the delete votes, and clearly aren't now. The closer followed consensus. — Becksguy (talk) 16:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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