Talk:Universal (act)

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DYK suggestion:

...that the historic term Universal, used at various times of the Ukrainian history to refer to the most important public declarations issued by the nation's authorities, has been recently revived?

Please opine or provide your variant so that we can submit it. --Irpen 04:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, why not? We need to start the Parliamentary crisis article, though. I'll leave it up to you, don't want it to get deleted. — Alex ^(T|C|E) 04:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice article; proposal anyone? hurry.--Riurik ^(discuss) 19:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current proposal is good, even though it doesn't mention Poland. Universal of National Unity doesn't relate to Poland, though. The DYK can be used for both articles. — Alex ^(T|C|E) 21:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Alex but let's destub one or two current stub-sections first. We still have a couple of days. I will give it a try later unless someone manages to do it sooner. Cheers, --Irpen 22:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just for your information, it is not exclusively a Ukrainian term, as the article suggests (see Proclamation of Połaniec, Polish: Uniwersał Połaniecki) issued in 1794. The current article might be expanded to include this information, especially if it rises to DYK status. Balcer 04:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BB --Irpen 04:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I guess my point is, either rename the article Universal (Ukrainian legal act), or do some serious research into the origin of the term. Where did it first appear, how widely was it used, what makes it distinct from just any official proclamation etc. Finding instances of its use in Ukraine and then claiming it is exclusively Ukrainian is a bit hasty. Balcer 04:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with the Polish part of the term's history being included in the very same article since there is no change in meaning. As for writing about it, as I said, just do it. --Irpen 04:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I will get around to it, but I want to give the original authors of the article a chance to do it themselves. Still, the issue remains: was this term used anywhere else, or was it invented in Poland or Ukraine? Keeping in mind that the word Universal comes from the Latin Universum and universalis may offer clues. Anyway, the earliest evidence of Polish use I can find is a universal issued by Mikołaj Potocki in 1637 ([1]) which incidentaly threatens with extermination the Cossack rebels together with their wives and children. (one of the darker pages of Polish history if carried out). Balcer 05:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the original author of the article is Irpen, and he's giving you the green light to implement the change. I also encourage you to be bold and incorporate it. — Alex ^(T|C|E) 05:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Balcer, you are much better equipped with knowledge, sources and language skill to read them to expand on the Polish part. Just do it rather than push me to write on something I am not ready to write yet.

Just to give you an example. When I saw the PSW and KO articles in my early wikidays, it was so Polonocentric, that I first did not get what this was about at all. Instead of blaming and shaming certain editors for what they wrote as they knew it, I, and others, added and corrected it. Check early Talk:Kiev_Offensive#POV for an amazement of several editors over the article before people with diverse backgrounds started to write for it. What's your problem with doing just that? --Irpen 05:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I will jump in, some time tomorrow, hopefully. But let me paste in some of my quick web research here for now.

Here is the definition of the term from a Polish dictionary ([2]).

uniwersał (Latin: litterae universales , 'universal publication, applicable to all) 1. (historic meaning) letter of the king read publicly, related to significant events. 2. (historic meaning) Legal act by the king, related with matters economic, military and religious 3. (historic meaning) Act calling the szlachta to the Sejm or to pospolite ruszenie 4. (historic meaning) A proclamation by a hetman or a voievode.

And here is evidence for the use of the term in 1621 ([3]) in an actual letter to the Polish king (given on a Ukrainian website). It refers to a "uniwersal" issued by a Cossack hetman.

And here is reference to one issued by Stefan Batory in 1577. ([4]) declaring total economic blockade of Gdańsk.

Anyway, this suggests to me that "universal" first entered into use in Poland and was used frequently in the history of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and this if of course why the Cossack hetmans were issuing them also, to give added significance to their own proclamations. The article should reflect this. I will try to incorporate this information. Balcer 05:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]