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The revert war on this article is doing nobody any favours so I protected the page, please discuss your differences here and come to an agreement. Thryduulf 13:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not at all convinced this is the appropriate course of action -- we don't have a genuine dispute, just a user who keeps removing explanation while offering only the barest pretext of an explanation (and only that after being reverted three times by two different users). As I have stated repeatedly, this information is accurate, verifiable, properly sourced, and presented neutrally, per our policies. RadicalSubversiv E 17:17, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This issue has actually been widely discussed and is relevant enough to be here in my opinion, as long as it isn't presented in an inflammatory manner (which I don't think it is in its present form). The link provided even sources an article where a senior Bush official denies the rumor. Maybe the quote can be added to the disputed line to add balance. 66.36.140.237 02:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well history has proven that an article quoting senior Bush officials is not a reliable source, because senior Bush officials are are liars, because the rumors were correct, and Ken Mehlman really is gay. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This nonsense should not be forced into the article. Wikipedia is not a forum for disseminating internet rumours. That Mehlman was asked whether he was gay and refused to dignify the question with an answer is NOT newsworthy and does not deserve to be in the article. It's an easy call: it stays out. Flavius Aetius 05:45, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Ken Mehlman is gay most certainly is newsworthy. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but seeing as you have only four edits to your name, you might find that it carries more weight if you could explain how this content violates our editorial policies, instead of simply stating that it's "an easy call" without any justification. RadicalSubversiv E 08:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. You're one of these stubborn types, I guess... It stays out because a man being asked whether he is gay at a speaking engagement and refusing to dignify such an invasive interrogatory is not a newsworthy item. It's of no import because it doesn't demonstrate anything. A man was asked a disrespectful question that he refused to answer. That's it. The only reason why one would be so insistent to include the item is if they were trying to run with the internet rumours and were trying to imply that Mehlman was gay. As I wrote previously, Wikipedia is not a forum for disseminating internet rumours or urban legends. You don't see any mention of gerbil tubes over on Richard Gere's page, do you? I wrote that it was an easy call because it is. No way does this item deserve to be included. It's a slam dunk. Flavius Aetius 03:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
What is so disrespectful about asking someone if they are gay? It's YOU who is disrespecting gay people be presuming that there is something wrong with it. On the other hand, there IS most certainly something wrong with hypocrisy. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wholly AGREE. I watched the Daily Show interview with this guy and was curious what his position in the Republican party represents in terms of the power structure and lines of communication. Instead I read crap about how he isn't gay and doesn't want to talk about it? As a wikipedia user, I'm a little pissed to read not-really-even-gossipy nonsensical sexist crap on a biographical entry.
I don't know any of you and have no idea why you're having a turf war on this guy's wiki entry. You can find me on MetaFilter as Five Fresh Fish. Now cut out that crappy sentence and be done with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.201.175 (talk • contribs) on 15 June 2006

What we have here is a single user who continues to compromise the integrity of the article by repeatedly inserting sleazy gossip into the page with only the flimsiest of explanations, even after being reverted six times by three different users. This is a case of someone who has seized on internet gossip regarding Mehlman's sexuality (the source of which was the biased, less than reliable, and left-leaning gay blogger Mike Rogers) and has decided to use this web page as a soapbox to give credence to that gossip. Mr. Mehlman being asked whether was gay after giving a speech at a Republican fundraiser and declining to dignify that question with an answer on principle is not notable and simply does not warrant inclusion in a Wiki article. Brian Brockmeyer 02:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What's so sleazy about being gay? You're a bigot if you think that. History has proven that Mike Rogers was correct, Ken Mehlman is gay, and you're wrong that it doesn't warrant inclusion in the Wiki article. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from personal attacks, especially false ones. The sentence was inserted by an anonymous user. I have restored it when it was removed with only the flimsiest of explanations, as as Func. You meanwhile, removed it twice, falsely marking your edit as minor and using no edit summary, and have still failed to explain in what way it violates Wikipedia policies. You'd have a point if the sentence stated that Mehlman was gay (look at the page history, and you'll find I and others reverted such additions before the current sentence was inserted), but it doesn't. RadicalSubversiv E 03:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Saying that someone is gay is not a personal attack, since there is nothing to be ashamed about being gay -- it's hypocrisy and lying that is shameful. However, your implication that there is something wrong with being gay is a personal attack on all gays. Why were you so sure he's not gay? What were your sources? They were obviously not reliable, were they? You are the one who is spreading false information. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
He was probably been called any number of cursewords also. If he does not acknowledge someone calling him a bastard, should we put it on all the pages? (the Clinton and Bush pages are going to get pretty long!) --Noitall 05:40, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
"Gay" is not a curse word. "Hypocrite" should be a curse word, though. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As a user who has reverted Radicalsubversiv on this page, I feel compelled to weigh in. The line does not belong here because, like a previous poster pointed out, it does not establish anything. A public person refusing to answer an inappropriate question posed to him as a matter of principle is not a significant occurrence. If Mehlman had answered, 'yes', to the question, then it would be a different story, but he didn't, and to stick the line in is to indulge in nothing more than sleazy tabloid gossip. My two cents. 24.186.219.123 16:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

History has proven you wrong. It was totally appropriate to ask Ken Mehlman if he is gay, because his roles with the RNC and the Bush campaign coincided with the Republican Party's attempts to exploit anti-gay prejudices and cement the allegiance of social conservatives, which makes his hypocrisy a relevant issue. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that no one has offered definitive evidence here that would establish the credibility of the claim. It is irrelevant for purpose of its establishing such validity to know who put it in and who has tried to remove it; the claim must be externally verifiable from at least one reliable source if it is to stand. If there's something more compelling to evaluate, please cite it. The cite previously included in the article consists of nothing more than speculation on the matter of Mehlman's sexual preference. Buffyg 00:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You'd have a point if the text in question states that Mehlman is gay -- it does not, it merely states that he has been asked repeatedly and has refused to answer. That much has clearly been verified. RadicalSubversiv E 00:24, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but there's nothing there that says that the questions put to Mehlman have been repeated in any meaningful sense. Even the proposed statements appears to be a distortion of cited blog. Reporters ask a lot of questions, including quite a few that haven't been researched. What's noteworthy about this one? I don't see a journalist like Tim Russert asking it on Meet the Press when Mehlman made a subsequent appearance [1]. This certainly isn't a scene from Law and Order with a DA demanding of a defendant whether he killed his wife. People might ask me if I come from another planet, but I wouldn't expect that the question would come up in my obituary as though it required non-ironic consideration. Buffyg 00:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty obvious that the whole reason Melhman's being protected is that he's a gay Jew. Think of how many Wiki disputes are going on and how many actually get protected. Melhman's a member of the tribe and even though all people are equal, some people (Jews) are more equal than others. The Jews dominate wikipedia, the GOP, and the world.-Dr. Kelly (Originally posted by 24.56.221.16)
I added a log on that anti-semitic commentJ. M. 08:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ken Mehlman's refusal to answer the question if he is gay is absolutely newsworthy as it raises suspicions that he might gay. If he was a Democrat that would have been a non-issue, but given that the Republican Party is extremely homophobic, to have a gay person lead the party is certainly newsworthy. The statement that Mehlman refused to answer the question is written in a Nuetral Point of View (NPOV) so therefore belongs in the article. --Asbl 05:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You sir are correct! 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is absolutely no reason to believe that refusal to answer the question is grounds for suspicion that he is gay. Also, The Gay People's Chronicle does not say that it was its reporter than asked the question. This is weaseling to add links to a source that does not appear notable and is more inclined to editorialise on a possibility than establish a fact or even provide material reasons to suggest that possibility. Buffyg 13:43, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Buffyg. The line is nothing more than unsubstantiated gossip, and thus, does not meet our editorial standards.--Brian Brockmeyer 17:11, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that he was asked the question is not gossip, but a hard fact that apparently some people are having problems accepting. It would be gossip to speculate on his sexual orientation, something the article does not do. --Asbl 22:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
History has proven that it's Ken Mehlman and the Republican Party that had problems accepting that he was gay. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that he was asked the question is not, however, notable (and you will notice that my objection was on the basis of notability) when there is no further information to occasion the question, which thus appears to be little more than a justification for speculation. I don't know which article you're reading when the article plainly reiterates speculation from the blogosphere:
Internet bloggers have pointed out that if Mehlman, 38, unmarried and never with female companionship, is gay, he is a hypocrite.
Activist and blogger John Arovosis says Mehlman should be outed if he is gay because “Mehlman has already said publicly that the gay issue is fair game for politics. If it is fair game, then the same rules apply to him.”
Precisely! And it applies to all other Republicans (or Democrats, or any other party) who hypocritically fight against gay rights and marriage equality. Outing Ken Mehlman and his ilk is perfectly justified, and the Republican Party is still full of people like him. 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As you've said before, it would be newsworthy if he were gay. If it is possible that he is gay because there's no evidence either way, there's nothing newsworthy and therefore nothing notable. If there were some evidence and not just a stab-in-the-dark question, there might be a news item. Accordingly NPOV is not the basis I'm asserting for objection.
I would, however, note that you are again asserting that the reporter from The Gay People's Chronicle asked the question; the paper says that the question came from "a reporter". Buffyg 22:32, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Mehlman is unmarried, therefore this because notable or newsworthy? This is ridiculous pushing of a point. The link you're providing to support this is a newspaper citing blogs — I see no evidence of critical treatment of blogosphere speculation; this seems to be calculated to skirt the requirement for credible sources (i.e. not blogs). I challenge you to justify why this is a credible source. Buffyg 13:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Moving our farsical exchange to the article talk page and replying again:

Is the fact that he has never been married not credible? Does that not lead to speculations? With Mehlman refusing to answer questions about the speculation, this leads to even more speculation, and this is relevant, and presented in a neutral point of view--Asbl 16:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I don't otherwise speculate that unmarried men approaching the age of 40 are queer, I don't see why that would be any more indicative here. By the standards you are proposing, any behaviour that may be taken as vaguely inconsistent with social norms that then becomes cause for gossip is notable. I think not. The fact that Mehlman argues that he need not answer a question when confronted with zero material evidence does not make this any more noteworthy. A chain of "what ifs" is no more compelling than an isolated one. You appear above all to confuse the fact that there is no obvious evidence of his heterosexuality (i.e. a wife and children), which therefore implies that he is gay. That is thoroughly illogical. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not — the point is that is no compelling evidence that he is and hence nothing notable. Buffyg 16:15, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in the post says that he is gay. Like it or not, politicians are held to a higher standard than private citizens (he was elected by the members of the Republican Central Committee, that does make him a politician). When a politician refuses to answer a question, especially a personal question, that is news, not gossip. It is the new standard under which we have to live, started in the Gary Hart case in 1987, and intensified during the Clinton Administration in the 1990's. Since the information is presented in a neutral point of view, I think it belongs in the article. Wikipedia does not exist in some ideal world, it exists in the real world. News presented in a NPOV belongs in the article. --Asbl 16:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You are being obtuse in your invocation of "higher standards," which are utter bunk, as are your arguments about "new standards," because you attempt to negate standards of evidence in order to argue about standards of conduct. This is not transparency, this is not scrutiny: this is gossip and rumour-mongering. If there were a story here, you could cite something more than echoes of the blogosphere and argue the logic. By the standard you propose, anything anyone blurts out at a press conference or prints in a tabloid can be reported here (and the fact that there are media organs willing to report entertain anything anyone is willing to ask as though it were a serious question is one reason that organisations with high media profile only talk to credentialed journalists and even insist on approving journalists themselves), a standard which I continue to argue does not even attempt to meet standards of credibility or notability. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or an echo chamber, and there is nothing neutral about refusing to evaluate claims on these terms to preventing it from being such a device. You continue to harp on NPOV (and I also believe that this could be contested on that basis), but you have yet to produce any reasonable argument why this is a sufficient criteria to determine whether your proposed edit should be included, particularly given the far larger range of guidelines and policies that clearly have bearing here. The question I am arguing is not whether you are reasonably reporting the fact that someone asked him whether he is gay and the precise content of his response; it is the question of whether there is anything notable about the question and any basis for believing it has any basis in fact.
The best you've come up with for arguing a possible factual basis is that Mehlman doesn't have any blindingly obvious heterosexual social behaviour and therefore it is reasonable to speculate that he is gay and to ask about this publicly. That's is not a sagacious bracketing of heteronormativity; that's a justification of gossip that not only lacks any affirmative evidence but feeds off of it. Lack of affirmative evidence is nowhere a justification for speculation, the more so where one recognises that very normal and mundane standards of evidence can be applied for verifiability. By the standards you're proposing, lacking clear evidence from the article that he is heterosexual, a reader will already have cause to suspect his homosexuality and begin to speculate on his rank hypocrisy. That is the substance of your source and its sources, and that is why there is nothing notable or credible about it barring a great deal more analysis and far more careful reporting.
On the other hand, I think NPOV only becomes a question when the matter to be reported comes from a credible and notable source. I have argued the point extensively, and I have had no reply. Buffyg 17:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
On one hand I believe that Blogs should be reconsidered as viable sources because I feel denying that is like denying Wikipedia is a valid source of information as well. At the moment, however, the rules don't allow blogs (however, people point this out -only- when it suits their purposes. They don't seek down these blog citations in general)... I also feel that in this case finding a non-blogged source would be appropriate. I'm sure there exist some, if you dig. It's also possible to place this in another context (there is much talk, originating from source X). Finally on the matter of being a right wing hack. Pointing out possible political bias is exactly what you, Buffyg, have done to Asbl, with different wording. The problem, Asbl, is you calling him a right wing hack is the same as calling me a Libtard. It'd be better to say, you feel that Buffyg is illustrating a Right wing bias and is unwilling to consider your argument. On the other hand, I don't think they are in and of themselves personal attacks, Buffyg, so much as strongly worded statements of opinion about your position, that come off as attacks --74.237.17.74 04:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone elaborate on this statement?

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"Starting in the 1960s, Republicans exploited Southern opposition to integration, as the G.O.P. National Committee chairman, Ken Mehlman, recently admitted." (from one of Joe Klein's recent articles on time.com)

Diversity

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Mehlman has done this, off the top of my head after Dean's 'Republicans are white, christians' thing. We should find the citation though. Makgraf 23:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Found one from the New York Sun: [Dean said:] "You know, the Republicans are not friendly to different kinds of people. They're a pretty monolithic party. Pretty much, they all behave the same, and they all look the same ... It's pretty much a white Christian party."
Which prompted the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Kenneth Mehlman, to retort - via Fox News - that "a lot of folks who attended my bar mitzvah would be surprised" to learn he leads a monolithic Christian party. Makgraf 23:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Partisan schlock, Makgraf. The people at the bar mitzvahs of Arlen Specter and Norm Coleman might have similar retorts: your "monolithic" belies a prejudice that your impeccable integrity ought to silence. And let's not run desperately away from the matter at hand: you've not even attempted to justify "sometimes"DBaba 06:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

DBaba, remember to abide by the WP:Civility policy. That includes not throwing around innuendo that I'm an anti-semite (a lot of folks who attended my bar mitzvah would be surprised at that). I also find it very amusing to be cast as some sort of anti-Mehlman partisan, a suggestion that a glance upwards on this talk page would show to be wrong. As to your comments, the "monolithic" phrase was from Howard Dean (who, for the record, I am not) and was to insult a perceived lack of diversity among the republican party. Mehlman "counter[ed] criticism of lack of diversity in the Republican Party", by citing the fact he was Jewish (with the bar mitzvah quip). As to the use of the word "sometimes", I have no particular attachment to it and the sentence would probably be better without it. Makgraf 08:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The prejudice I alleged there was Democratic, not anti-Semitic: re-read what I said again, and understand it for the first time. (But that's so awesome that you're Jewish; thanks buddy!) Now it's awfully cute that you note "perceived" lack of diversity on the talk page, but you'll actually be owning up to the integrity of which I'm certain your possessive when you remove "sometimes" for being an injection of pure slime, insert "perceived" and "Howard Dean" to qualify that homogeneity we've accused the Republican party of representing, and perhaps even exclude your own "identity" from the question--if we are indeed talking about this article and not your (presumably splendid) childhood and adolescent maturation.

But just to spell this out for you, given that you clearly do NOT prefer partisan to encyclopedic ends:

He is unmarried, and has been subject to rumors in gossip columns alleging homosexuality. While he at first declined to deny the allegations, he later asserted that in fact he was heterosexual.

A resident of Washington, D.C., Mehlman is Jewish.

Any issue with what I've posited? Ahem, why? (While you defensively BS a response you don't even actually believe, I may actually read those civility guidelines: already fear I'll discover my portrait in a circle with a line through it there.)DBaba 09:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okaaaaay... I didn't really understand what you were trying to say or why you're throwing in the gay stuff. So let's repeat: You said: "unreferenced, so removing assertion that Mehlman "sometimes" cites his religion as evidence of Republican diversity". I found a reference to Mehlman doing just that and so restored it. Dean's accusation may be crazy or slimy or whatnot but they're tangential to the issue: which is that Mehlman has used his religion as evidence of Republican diversity. So what issue do I have with your new paragraph? Well, not really anything: you'd probably want to talk with Asbl about how to change the is-he-gay stuff which I don't really have an interest in (other than changing it to show that he had, in fact, denied being gay). If you want to argue that the article shouldn't have the line about Mehlman using his religion that's cool. But you'll have to do it from the stand of it being unworthy of inclusion not because it's false (because he has). Makgraf 06:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mehlman should have confirmed he was gay in order to demonstrate that the Republican Party really is diverse enough to accepted closeted self loathing homosexuals as their leaders. Well, maybe they didn't exactly "accept" him once they knew he was gay! ;) 92.108.60.150 (talk) 00:57, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One instance does not evidence "sometimes"; nor does it set us free of the slimy manipulation of context (e.g., "Asked to comment on Howard Dean's remarks indicating that the Republican party was the Christian party, Mehlman noted that he himself was the spokesman for the party, and Jewish").

"Makgraf sometimes asserts the fact that he is Jewish in order to counter allegations of bias."

Now is Mehl really responding to a "lack of diversity", or is he actually responding to the allegation of the Republican party being Christian, specifically, as per HD's statement? Were you responding to an allegation of being underhanded, or a (perceived) allegation of being anti-semitic?

I'd like you to take a good look at "criticism of lack of diversity". Now can we criticize a lack of diversity in the Republican party, or must we rather allege a lack of diversity? To render "allegation" as "criticism" is to imply facticity.

If you think what stands is fine, then that's fine with me. I trust your judgment. And I won't worry about M's "You have asked a question people shouldn’t have to answer" rendered as "declin(ing) to answer questions about his personal life".DBaba 06:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I said before: As to the use of the word "sometimes", I have no particular attachment to it and the sentence would probably be better without it. I don't really see criticism as implying factuality but if you want it could be changed to "allegations". The Mehlman quote was orginally the way you stated but was cut when the paragraph was shortened [2]. I'd have no problem with the quote being restored. Finally, if and when I get my own wikipedia article, feel free to ad that I disclosed my religion to counter allegations of bias. Makgraf 04:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

References

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I have incorporated the references into the text as much as I can, using the <ref> function, however, some of the numbered refs did not appear to correspond to numbers in the text, and at least one number in the text does not appear to have a reference listed. DuncanHill 21:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed content

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I restored the content removed which was seveal big chunks - I think it's better to discuss them rather just delete them because they are sourced and discuss Mehlman. Hekerui (talk) 07:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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