Talk:Awad Haj Ali

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The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Their edits to this article were last checked for neutrality on 3 May 2021. Error: Disclosures that use the |checked= parameter should also use |editedhere=yes for at least one contributor. Zeinab mandour (talk · contribs) This user has declared a connection. (declared here)

Hey Zeinab_mandour, thanks for the work you put into this article. I'm quite new around here so I'm not sure whether something is wrong or not, but I feel like the tone of the article is not encyclopedic, especially the Major achievements section, could you provide an external reference? Also you might want to look at MOS:BIB. Best. 37.172.3.165 (talk) 23:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate of what I posted on Teahouse

I see that there have been two edits to reduce a lot of extraneous information, so that looks much better. I have two thoughts: One, the user appears to have a close connection (and therefore more prone to promotional content) and most of the information is not cited. I am going to take a look at whether I can find sources - and if not remove uncited content.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:57, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The عوض حاج علي احمد; امير حسين خلف. مقدمة في نظم التشفير و امنية المعلومات. أمن المعلومات. الخرطوم: مركز الدراسات الإستراتيجية. reference

Afaict with google translate, it's something written by the article-subject. Doesn't seem to say anything about an award. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång Thanks for catching a few edits that I overwrote during an edit conflict. I am going to do some more research for sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I did that, no problem. The "long version" seems to have mostly been a translation from Arabic WP, [1]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:51, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As an FYI, I have finding information based upon google searches using "Awad Haj Ali" + University, hoping to get education or career information. Unfortunately, there were political troubles in early 2020.

Wikipedia is intended to present notable information from reliable sources, and is absolutely not intended to be a social media platform or a means of promotion and is not an indiscrimination collection of information. It seems that needs to be said at this point.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And WP:BLP applies. The rules are strict, but for good reason. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:58, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zeinab mandour If it wasn't clear by all the tags on the article, there were a number of issues with the article. Then, a number of edits from different, unrelated people to fix the article. Reverting edits that were made in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines is a problem.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:15, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not finding information that helps with biographies of living people and general notability guidelines, nothing to fill in his career information or education.

I have found some published reports / papers and he was a speaker at at least one convention. I am not sure that it's worth the time since it won't impact notability, but if someone thinks the additions would be good, I would be happy to do it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. –CaroleHenson (talk) 03:20, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am combing through this version of the article where there were additions of sources to see if any of them help the article:

• This source does not mention Ali at all.
• This source just shows him as a participant, not "chairman of the Eastern Caucus of the African Parliament"
  • I made an edit to remove "chairman of the Eastern Caucus" - it's not in the source
  • I added a note that his name is spelled various ways: with Ahmed at the end, as "Awad Hag Ali" and for papers "A. H. Ali"
• This site cannot be reached, but I am concerned that it's just one step down from www.uofk.edu, but that is not working. I googled the website, though, and there are a lot of pages that come up about history, etc. But when I click on the links, the pages time out. The site is used several times in that version of the article.
• This site has no mention of Ali.
• This site routes to an Index page with five subfolders.

• This source just mentions that Ali was at a signing ceremony that took place in Khartoum, Sudan. There is nothing about his membership in organizations.
• There are a ton of links to publications in this version, where his name is commonly A. H. Ali and with other authors. But there are a lot of bare links. I have no idea what might be the most notable publications.

By the way, I also changed the name he is referred to from his first name to his surname, per WP:SURNAME

-–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am beginning to wonder if something like this stripped down version of the article might be the best way to go after all. Or, something close to it. This version doesn't mention the Muslim Brotherhood incident, his losing his job, educational controversy, and is in the present tense, when these were former jobs. I am not sure, though, at this point what of that should be included in a stripped down version. Does anyone have any thoughts about that? IMO, we should leave this question open for several days to get everyone's thoughts.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good job. I also noticed that [2] didn't mention him, maybe it did at some point, but I didn't find any archived versions. I looked at the previous award section, "The Golden Order of Science and Arts. The highest honoring medal in Sudan, 2003." should be easy to find an excellent WP:RS for, at least a .gov site,but I haven't found anything good. Maybe there's good WP:NOENG sources. Category:Sudanese awards is sadly empty. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:27, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think these [3] are useful either per WP:BLPPRIMARY. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I am surprised by the commons images. Thanks for checking for the award.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cordless Larry, it's a little early, but would you be willing to semi-protect for a week or so? And if not, perhaps you're keeping an admin-eye on things? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The standard protection to apply in the case of edit warring is full protection, but since it's very clear that one side is in the wrong here, I don't think that's the best approach. I will deal with any further disruption if it occurs. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would be intersting if there was some sort of published "reply" to the The Portal source somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:31, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, what do you think needs to be done with it? Could {{cleanup inline}} with an explanation of the issue work?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:34, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really know, there's not a lot to clean up as of now. I'm a little concerned about the RS-ness of The Portal and Sudan Tribune in this context, but what can you do. Well actually, I've half a mind to suggest deletion/start an Afd, but it could well be kept per WP:NACADEMIC. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello الخاتم أبواليسر المبارك,

There is no question that your recent edits, like this one, are lovely for a letter of recommendation or a similar other purpose.

It is not, though, encyclopedic content. Please see Promotion and Biographies of living people. If you have any questions or comments, please communicate here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear sir, In order to improve your information about awad hag Ali I have the following comments: 1)Prof Awad is a well known scholar in mathematical sciences and has nothing to do with sports as mentioned in the refered site about his education.. That is can be well seen in the references cited below about his certificates and publications. 2) Accrding to.my knowledge prof Awad is neither a leader Nor a member of Muslim Brotherhood organization .It may be unfair to take the information presented by Al_Arabia as authentic . Prof Awad is devoted for his acadamics .That is reflected in the leading posts he had in many universities, his large number of publications and the large number of Ph. D students graduated under his supervision. الخاتم أبواليسر المبارك (talk) 14:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Take the time to read WP:Biographies of living persons and WP:V carefully. You added no references about his certificates and publications. "According to my knowledge" is not the way to write in a WP-article, see WP:ISAWIT. If you know of WP:Reliable sources that could be useful for this WP-article, you are welcome to bring them to this talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "According to my knowledge" is not the way to write an article. I do think, though, that it can be sounding board to ensure that the article is correct. IMO opinion, it would be helpful to 1) get some more and better sources or remove uncited content and 2) perhaps remove the part about his being a leader in Muslim Brotherhood. It would also be helpful to identify the key or most notable publications. There are so many of them, but it would be good to narrow this down.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can paste the links to the articles that are most revolutionary or notable here and list Ali as an author, and I'll format them for the article. Perhaps the top ten or so.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The flip-side of removing the MB-leader sources is that those are the only in-depth independent coverage of him in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say to remove the sources or the other content. Just changing leader to member. It's hinted in the source, but isn't quite clear as it could be.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can make suggestions and contribute sources on this talkpage, that's it. If they are inline with WP:s policies and guidelines, people may listen.

To take one example, you inserted this:

Awad was the vice chancellor of El neelain University for more than ten years, During his administration, he promote the University from four to twelve Faculties.^{[1] [2]}

Check those references. They don't support the text. You can't ref WP on WP. None of the pages you linked mention Awad Haj Ali. Any more edits like that and an admin will block you again, longer this time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, about "for more than ten years". This source [4] from the university contradicts you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Like an admin said at your talkpage when he blocked you, "During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus." This talkpage is the right place for that, but you have shunned it like the plague. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:36, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a reminder, and in addition to Gråbergs Gråa Sång, {{request edit}} is the best way to submit changes by people with COI here on the talk page. You could also just start a new section. I am happy to help you with that, if you like. It can be a bit confusing how to do that the first time.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

for establishment of faculties you can go to Al Neelin University website and select the history of vice chancellor of the university and you can find the link below https://www.neelain.edu.sd/AboutUniversity/vice-chancellor Prof. Awad Hajali 1997-2005 and from 2008-2010.

for promotions you can check the faculties and colleges in the same website and check the date of establishment of each faculty you will find that the most faculties was established in the period from 1997-2005 during his administration period.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeinab mandour (talk • contribs)

Zeinab mandour, I added the first link a number of edits ago. So, that's taken care of for his years as Vice Chancellor.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not understanding the point about faculties established between 1997 and 2005. It sounds like you are saying - look to see anything new - and assume that Ali did that. Unfortunately, that kind of logical leap doesn't work for Wikipedia. We need a source that says that he's responsible for that - like a newspaper article, message on the website about his accomplishments, etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:45, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what I am seeing, I think the best opportunities are to find sources for uncited content. I think we could reword the sentence about his areas of expertise by using publications that he authored... and it would be good to select maybe the top ten articles that are most important or revolutionary (as in new conclusions). Does that make sense?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

for his publication you can search on Awad Hagali Ahmed on google Scholar or ResearchGate or you can open the old version that was posted by me and you can find most of his published papers and the links to these papers.

Ah I see, "history of the vice-chancellorship" was expendable, I did not get that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see that there's some updates to the article from comments on the talk page. If you need me at any point, feel free to ping me. I'll be here working on a new article, so I'll be available.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zeinab mandour, ok, I've added his ResearchGate page at Awad Haj Ali#External links (near bottom of page). There was other info there but apparently WP sees it like a WP:ABOUTSELF source, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#ResearchGate. About adding some publications, consider CaroleHenson's suggestion at Talk:Awad_Haj_Ali#Awad_Haj_Ali_Ahmed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also looked at links you added in your last edits, https://www.ncl.ac.uk/ https://www.itcilo.org/about http://www.moe.gov.sd/ http://rowadaltamayoz.com/islam/catplay.php?catsmktba=10423 https://www.uofk.edu/en/ but afaict he is not mentioned on these specific pages. If there are relevant pages elsewhere on those sites you have to dig them up.

What can be added to this article is limited by WP:BLP (and in your case, WP:COI), and that policy is very strict. If it can't be sourced to an acceptable source it wont be included. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've been looking for a reference for him being awarded "The Golden Order of Science and Arts. The highest honoring medal in Sudan, 2003." It should be easy to find an excellent WP:RS for, at least a .gov site,but I haven't found anything good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, does he have a personal website of some kind? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

he have a new account on ResearchGate and google scholar, But he haven't any personal website yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeinab mandour (talk • contribs) 17:51, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am grouping these into one section and collapsing the sections, per discussion on this talk page. We need drafted language and one or two of the best sources that absolutely and clearly provide the information for the suggested language.

It would be so much better to just start a new request. All that is needed is current wording (if applicable), desired wording, and one or two of the best sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:21, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Example:

Current wording: "He was a professor of Computer Science.[5]"

New wording: no wording change

Source: please add this link as a source http://www.apaunr.org/team?name=hon-awad

–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:39, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Biography The Ministry of Higher Education and the engineering complex in Sudan question Ali's education.[1][b] However, he was awarded a PhD in computer science by Newcastle University in 1981.[2] Ali's main area of study and research is Computing Science, and his minor fields are Mathematics and Statistics.[citation needed]

He was a professor of Computer Science.[citation needed] He was the vice chancellor of Neelain University 1997-2005 and 2008-2010.[3][4] Ali is also a former director of the Sudanese Central Bureau of Statistics and he was the census controller of the 2008 Sudanese Census.[5] He attended the African Parliament from 2012 to 2016.[6]

From 1997 to 2005 and again from 2008 to 2010, he was the Vice Chancellor of Neelain University in Sudan.[4][7] He was also a director at the university.[8]

Ali's employment at Al-Neelain University was terminated in 2020 due to statements he made in the "Great Secrets of Brotherhood" documentary that appeared on the Al-Arabiya station. He talked about the need for security forces to kill peaceful demonstrators of the former head of state Omar al-Bashir's regime.[1][8] He has been identified as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.[1]

Notes: 1. The Ministry of Higher Education and the engineering complex in Sudan question Ali's education.[1][b]:

I think that this is unreliable news because its source is a web page and not from a reliable source such as the Ministry of Higher Education and Scientific Research in Sudan, so it is necessary to have credibility as mentioned previously when listing any information because this is a requirement of Wikipedia.

2- This page was created in 2009 by a person or institution (under the title of a page related to an academic personality) and since that period the administration of Wikipedia has not taken any action against this page and it has not been issued that this page is for a non-influential person, otherwise the administration had to close it from the start. Before starting to edit this page by me a month ago, I searched Wikipedia about Sudanese academics or scientist (some of them also have political affiliation) and I found some pages, most of these pages do not have links indicating all the information mentioned in them (most of them are not referenced). The question is, why was there no modification in those pages and only modification on this page ????? Is it because he is a member of the previous Sudanese government (the Muslim Brotherhood) or why ??? If this is not the reason, I hope that Wikipedia is fair in its policies and treat everyone the same.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeinab_mandour (talk • contribs)

Zeinab_mandour I am not understanding the block of text from the article. It looks like the first three sentences are the same from the article. Am I missing something?

1. The sources looked to me to be a news source vs. social media, etc. What specifically do you think is wrong with The Portal and the Sudan Tribune? Do you they are not a news sources?

2. It can happen that way. It really depends on the number of people who view the article and how experienced they are at editing. A new editor recently questioned the content, but there was no response to her comment/question. So they posted the issue on the Teahouse, and a number of us saw it and started addressing the issues that we saw. This has nothing to do with Ali's background. I didn't know about the incident / documentary until I searched on his name + University. This absolutely has nothing to do with who he is.

I would be happy to take a look at some of the articles that you found, especially those without sources. Do you have the article titles?

Just out of curiosity: What did you think of my idea to 1) build a citation for the areas of focus based upon articles that were written and 2) identify some articles that are the most noteworthy?–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:13, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2. As Carole says. WP has thousands of editors and millions of articles, and contains plenty of, well, crap. People work on what they think they should, when they think they should, and some areas get very little attention, sometimes for several years. Administration of Wikipedia (WP:ADMIN) only get involved when it's obvious some editors are violating policies and guidelines. Wikipedians (and media) are aware that WP is imperfect (there's WP-articles like Reliability of Wikipedia and Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia).

I'm fairly certain there are articles that are worse from the WP-perspective then this one. But, per WP:OTHER, that is only an argument to improve (or delete) those articles as well.

The article looked like this [5] when you started adding stuff to it. What was good about that version, was that it was clear that the refs supported the text in the article. That's how a WP:BLP should be. Of course it was out date, but WP:BLP says basically "When in doubt, exclude." You changed it to this [6] and people reacted because that's not how a WP:BLP should be. WP is primarily interested about what independent WP:RS has said about a person, not what the person (or their friends and relatives) want to say about them, that is what personal websites and social media are for. Strange as it may sound, just because a person published something or did something, it doesn't necessarily follow that it should be mention on-WP. A WP:BLP is not a resume or CV, and that's what your first "long version" looked like. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. Carole, after re-reading [7] about 3 times (it's not very good English) I'm ok with removing this unless there's stronger sources.

"According to the Sudanese scene, Haji Ali falsified all his high school grades in order to be successful, and not only that, most of his academic degrees are doubtful. The Sudanese website indicated that an official in the Ministry of Higher Education discovered this matter after the overthrow of the Omar al-Bashir regime, and not only that, but the engineering complex in Sudan accused him of the same charge."

IMO that is weak, BLP-wise, with the available ref, and having it first in the Bio-section doesn't make it better. The MB and sacking stuff is much clearer. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Okay.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:23, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If possible i want to explain some details about the news that is posted in the portal website:

Some comments about the reliability and suthenticstion of the portal site which is taken as s main reference. 1) It is mentioned in the site that's Awad degree was in sports!!! How to be his degree in sports and his theses in mathematical sciences. That indicates ignorance as the word mathematics and sports are very similar in arabic language (riada) 2)it said his certificates are not recognised with the Ministry of high educstion, this is not mention in any official cites exepet in the portal news and this is not trusted refrence. 3) there is nothing in Sudan something called complex of engineer which is mentioned in that site as one of the bodies to doubt Awad certificates... The only body to recognize certificates is the ministry of high education 4)It is also mentioned in the site that awad is a leader of Muslim brotherhood without any references. Yes awad was member of the Congress party which is said to relate to Muslim Brotherhood but definitely Awad is neither a leader nor an activist in that party . He was devoted to his acadamics. His work career prove that (Khartoum university-Al neelin university- the Sudanese Central Bureau of Statistics) 5)Awad was in pension since 2019 and he was not sacked. He had an Emiritus professor in annual contract which was not renewed in 2020 for political reasons. Professional Awad is so well known. Scholar in mathematicsl science and computer and a well known proffesional in I. C.T and the wiki could prove that with its own authentic references and not to rely in highly politicized biased websites.

Finally: https://theses.ncl.ac.uk/jspui/handle/10443/1978 this link is from Newcastle university about the PhD thesis of Awad Hajali Ahmed

Let us logically discuss, how the University of Newcastle could grant him a Ph.D. degree (his research is still present in its digital repository) if the university does not verify his university degree and his bachelor's degree. And a master's degree was previously granted to him by it as well, and I have copies of these certificates or credibility can refer to this university.

You asked me earlier to select 10 of his publication and write their links, i will select 10 of his Publication which in English Language: https://academic.oup.com/imajna/article-abstract/11/1/7/659118 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0898122186902300 https://academic.oup.com/imajna/article-abstract/5/2/235/775152 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0898122190901368 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00207169908804844 https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijmms/1998/254951/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijmms/2001/906018/ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00207169808804640 https://onlinejournals.uofk.edu/index.php/SJS/article/view/40 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/6633993 Zeinab mandour (talk) 17:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my, my head is spinning. A few quick thoughts for the moment, this article no longer says that he is a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, based upon a comment you made yesterday. I understand your points about assuming that he got a bachelor's and master's degree if he had a Phd. I am imagining that is what other readers would assume as well.

The thesis is already used as a source. It is really confusing and unhelpful to make points about issues, like the thesis and not being a leader of the MB that are already taken care of.

I am thinking that there is a problem using digital representations of degrees, but this is not an area that I've come up to until now.

I will work on incorporating the published articles into this article. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CaroleHenson & Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Thanks a lot for your positive and quick responds :) and I am so Sorry for taking a lot of your valuable time Zeinab mandour (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. It's so good to work with you.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:09, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay,  Done with the publications. As an FYI, these publications would be considered WP:Primary sources so I only used two sources in the body of the article regarding his areas of expertise. If there are two or so other articles in the list that are better, I would be happy to swap them in.

In addition, if there are two recent articles that would be good to add, I am happy to do that. I am going to look for a source for him being a professor. I am sure I have seen that somewhere.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes! My brain just clicked in. He was a Vice Chancellor during those years. Not a problem at all to not have publications while in that role.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To quote the journalist Stephen Harrison, "Knowledge production, at least in the Wikipedia sense, is part collaboration and part combat." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great quote. I am actually surprised how much in the end makes sense. Consensus can be such a battle, but it often has remarkably good outcomes based upon guidelines and common sense.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:01, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed that too. Editors may quarrel and become exhausted, but readers often benefit. Which is the point, really.

Another great quote: "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare. But now, thanks to the internet, we know that this is not true." - Robert Wilensky Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's funny. Funny mental image.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:05, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gråbergs Gråa Sång, It's no big deal, but I lost a bunch of edits, including a statement about selected publications.

I would be happy to make lunch now. Do you want to make any more edits now?

I think it will just take me 20 minutes to finish.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:36, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CaroleHenson I'm so effing sorry, the banner registered in my brain just after I clicked publish. I'll do better, sorry, sorry, sorry. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:38, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I figured it was something like that. No problem. I think it might be because I was working just in sections. I'll finish now and will be done soon.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apparantly Banner blindness is a thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw this, Gråbergs Gråa Sång. So funny - and so appropriate. Love how you keep things light!19:28, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

if you please check this paragraph: he is not just attended but he was a member of African Parliament & chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the African Parliament as mentioned in the trusted links below. In the same page there was a Simple definition about him (include his professorship) http://apaunr.org/people http://apaunr.org/team?name=hon-awad http://www.africanstrategies4health.org/uploads/1/3/5/3/13538666/final_draft_brochure_-_english.pdf (page 5) https://observer.ug/features-sp-2084439083/profile/31356--proud-ogwal-bows-out-of-pan-african-parliament (paragraph 5) https://www.parliament.go.ug/cmis/browser?id=51920938-9db7-4cde-9d50-cc5071b915e5%3B1.0 (check page 6 title 2.6) http://apaunr.org/activities

If you please update this wiki page and add Awad Hagali as one of the members of the Pan-African Parliament in Sudan paragraph

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Pan-African_Parliament

for professorship you can also check Al Neelin University website (It is a government university affiliated with the Ministry of Higher Education and Scientific Research) and check history of vice-chancellor you will find Awad Hajali name under the Prof title, So it is evident that if he did not obtain this degree, it must be withdrawn from his name on the official page of the university

https://www.neelain.edu.sd/AboutUniversity/vice-chancellorZeinab mandour (talk) 22:39, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

thank you in advance :)

I am wondering if we are ready to use a {{request edit}}-type format with these steps.

1) Provide a quote of the exact wording is that you want to change

2) Provide the language that you would like it changed to

3) With sources that clearly cover the changes

How does that sound?–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ok let's start Zeinab mandour (talk) 23:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Specific text to be added or removed: He was a professor of Computer Science.

• Reason for the change: this is verification of professorship ( He is a professor)
• References supporting change: http://apaunr.org/people http://apaunr.org/team?name=hon-awad

in all these sites he was mentioned under title Prof. Awad Hagali.

Zeinab mandour (talk) 00:02, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't add links to pages that don't have the information.

 Done I struck out the unhelpful link above. It wasn't needed, but I added / formatted the second link to the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

• Specific text to be added or removed: He was also a director at the university of Al Neelin University
• Reason for the change: he is not a director, he was the Deputy Vice Chancellor and vice Chancellor of Al Neelin University
• References supporting change: https://www.neelain.edu.sd/AboutUniversity/vice-chancellor in (history of Vice-Chancellor)

Zeinab mandour (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent job on the edit request! That helps SO much for me (I have a health problem that makes me easily confused and otherwise end up reading info 10 to 12 times to decipher what is needed.)

Yes, I see the part about Vice Chancellor by clicking History of Vice Chancellor. Thanks for adding that. The thing is, though, the preceding sentence says: "From 1997 to 2005 and again from 2008 to 2010, he was the Vice Chancellor of Neelain University in Sudan.[7][10]"

If he was not a director, I will remove that. I thought it was a big weird (now that I think of it) that I wasn't seeing director in other places.

 Done with this edit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:39, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not seeing that he was Deputy Vice Chancellor. Where is that found?–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies First of all, thanks so much for stepping in on this talk page. It's much appreciated.

Regarding the removal of publications, I see your point about the article not being a resume.

The subject of this article has written a number of publications, which provides insight into his areas of research and study. Since there are some countries, like Sudan, where there aren't as many reliable sources generally, I thought the use of some key publications could provide some insight into his background. I asked for ten or so of the most meaningful publications.

I was on a kind of long break. Has there been a shift, generally, to disallow key publications?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:30, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I thought these were fairly common. Making a WP:OTHER comparison, Clarice_Phelps#Publications. Fwiw, several of the journals in Zeinab's/Caroles limited list had WP-articles. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:15, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've written dozens and dozens of biographies of academics; I never include those, and many of my colleagues do not either, for the simple reason that published journal articles are almost never discussed in secondary sources, and that listing them turns articles into resumes. I mean, I can get something published in a crappy journal easily, or a predatory one, and that could be listed then, but it's sometimes hard to get to present something at the Modern Language Association convention, and so maybe that should be listed as well--and then where's the end? Books are reviewed, typically, and can thus be verified, and their importance established. So yes, in general, journal articles are not allowed, as far as I am concerned, and I'm not alone in that, though I will not say there is a general rule (I wish there was). Yes, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, such journals often have articles, but again, that doesn't make the article published in it worth noting for the reader of an encyclopedia. And another problem is that it opens up the floodgates for resume builders, who also cite elements from a biography to a subject's own work. Drmies (talk) 12:02, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've written no bios on academics. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I can tell you, it's not easy. There wasn't much I can do for Elizabeth Meese, for instance. I know she is/was notable, but I had to rely mostly on reviews of her books. I know she published a ton of articles, but those aren't themselves often the topic of discussion. And biographical information is usually rare anyway on academics, besides what you find on websites from universities and things like that. We see this for poets as well, who often don't get the coverage a YouTuber gets, and often their articles are larded with links to publications on- and off-line. As much as it pains me, I cull those too... Drmies (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have written and reviewed/edited articles about academics. I totally agree that there should not be a long list of publications, but I think that having a select group that defines the kind of research that they are doing is helpful. I have done that for academics in the U.S. and abroad. I find it very informative. That's my take.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:22, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not hearing anything that is a strong argument against having a select group of publications in this article subject to WP:OTHER. How about if we bring this to people that are watching this article: Do you support or oppose return of the list of ten or so publications?–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:02, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support I'm ok with it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support for the reasons stated above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support return of the list of ten or so publications Zeinab mandour (talk) 13:22, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

• Specific text to be added or removed: if you please replace (He attended the African Parliament) from the text
• Reason for the change: He was not just attend the Pan African Parliament, but he was a member and chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the African Parliament
• References supporting change: http://apaunr.org/people

Also, If you please update this wiki page and add Awad Hagali as one of the members of the Pan-African Parliament in Sudan paragraph.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Pan-African_Parliament Zeinab mandour (talk) 01:04, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We're getting closer. I am trying to decipher this. I think what you are saying is:

Current wording: "He attended the African Parliament"

Desired wording: "He was a member and chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the African Parliament"

Sources - ???

The first two links don't cover this. The third link I am not seeing anything close to this. Is there somewhere on that page that has that info? The first one I have already told you is not helpful at all.

I am missing the point about "also, if you please..."–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:24, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

http://apaunr.org/team?name=hon-awad in this page when you read the first line (Hon Ahmed is a Member of the Parliament of Sudan) the membership was mentioned here.

https://www.parliament.go.ug/cmis/browser?id=51920938-9db7-4cde-9d50-cc5071b915e5%3B1.0  in this page when you open the pdf file page 6 you will find in clause 2.6  (The election of the chairperson was carried out and Hon. Prof Awad hag Ali Ahmed from Sudan was elected to replace Hon.Gideon Munga’roo who did not return to PAP after the Kenyan Elections in March 2013.)Zeinab mandour (talk) 01:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Let me see if I have it based upon the sources:

Current wording: "He attended the African Parliament"

Desired wording and sources: "He was a member[8] and chairperson of a regional caucus of the African Parliament see page 6"

Ah, I don't know if that's a different link, but that helped. I am not finding Eastern Caucus. How would we know that? Is there somewhere where it says that Sudan (or Kenya??) is part of the Eastern conference?–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:13, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.fao.org/avianflu/documents/raf3017.pdf https://path.azureedge.net/media/documents/WRA-report.pdf (the countries of Eastern Caucus was mentioned on these pdf links, Sudan one of them)

https://www.humanitarianresponse.info/en/operations/ethiopia/article/ethiopia-implements-domesticates-well-au-legal-instruments-house-speaker (it was mentioned in this link in paragraph 5) (Chairperson of the East African Region Caucus of the PAP, Professor Awad Ahmed, on his part said the African parliament will have strong mechanisms to control the practices of African leaders in terms of good governance, democracy and human rights.) Zeinab mandour (talk) 02:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would you please format what you want as I have done above:

Current wording: "He attended the African Parliament"

Desired wording and sources:

Once we work this part out - which is a very clear request and not open to interpretation - things will go much easier for all of us.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:09, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok

Current wording:"He attended the African Parliament"

Desired wording and sources:Awad was a member of Pan African Parlimanet[9]and he was a chairperson of Eastren Cacus of Pan African Parlimanet.[10]

That is perfect! And, perfectly clear!

Okay, I will make the edit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I made some minor tweaks for spelling and grammar. I made the change to the body of the article (with sources) and the intro (without sources) here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your positive response. if you please modify the wording to avoid repetition.

Current wording: He attended the African Parliament from 2012 to 2016.[10] He was a member of Pan African Parliament[6] and he was a chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the Pan African Parliament.[11]

Desired wording and sources: He was a member of Pan African Parliament[6] and he was a chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the Pan African Parliament.[11] Zeinab mandour (talk) 14:13, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - I made the change. It might be nice to have the years, but I wasn't sure if it would be accurate to say something like:

Wording possible? - From 2012 to 2016, he was a member of the Pan African Parliament[6][10] and he was a chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the Pan African Parliament.[11]–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

From 2012 to 2016, he was a member of the Pan African Parliament[6][10] and he was a chairperson of the Eastern Caucus of the Pan African Parliament.[11]

It sounds good, i agree with you✅ Zeinab mandour (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, good.  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

how to update the List of members of the Pan-African Parliament wiki page and add awad haj ali as one of the pervious members of the Pan-African Parliament in the group of the pervious members from Sudan???

the link of the page is below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Pan-African_Parliament#Sudan[2] Zeinab mandour (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zeinab mandour, one thing you can do if you want. WP is very careful about copyright etc, but if you take a new picture of him, and upload it to Commons, we could use that as leadimage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:24, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok✅ Zeinab mandour (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

File:Awad Hajali Ahmed.jpg

Zeinab mandour (talk) 17:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I added the image to the article page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification by Awad Haj Ali to the news that was mentioned on Al Arabiya channel that he ordered the killing of peaceful protesters:

On the link of the page below there is an explanation by Awad Haj Ali on the news that was mentioned on Al-Arabiya channel which stated that he ordered the killing of peaceful protesters. Please add his clarification as an additional reference (As a different opinion) besides what was said on Al-Arabiya channel.

Note: The source is in Arabic Language (I did not find a source in English) Please translate it to verify the content.

https://kushnews.net/2020/01/226238 Zeinab mandour (talk) 13:32, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would have been preferable to have had draft language, but I went ahead and just put in a quote that was from the translated page.

This is what the request could have looked like:

Request: please add to the paragraph about the documentary

Requested wording: < whatever you were looking for >

Source: https://kushnews.net/2020/01/226238

The more that we can stick to this format, the easier it will be for all of us. Otherwise, we need to guess what you are trying to say.

I went ahead and made this change, but in the future please clearly state exactly what wording you are requesting.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry to not format the text, because i want to know first if it's ok to use source with other language or it's not allowed.

Current wording:Ahmed responded (translated to English): "What I said on Al-Arabiya TV was in response to the security services in an extended meeting when we asked them about who kills demonstrators, and they replied that there are armed protesters who are killing peaceful demonstrators."

Desired wording and sources:Ahmed responded (translated to English): "What I said on Al-Arabiya TV was in response to the security services in an extended meeting when we asked them about who kills demonstrators, and they replied that there are armed protesters who are killing peaceful demonstrators, so I said since there are armed demonostrators killing peacfull demonstrators, it's the responsibility of the security forces to deal with the case ( The word killing never mentioned in his statement); but the political propaganda changed the word deal by the word killing. [11]

I understand what you're saying about checking first on the source. Makes sense. I am wondering about how to trim this down. It can be said with a lot less words by making it a summary instead of a quote.

How about something like: He responded that his focus was who was killing the peaceful demonstrators, and that the focus of security forces should be on protecting them from armed demonstrators.[12]–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds good✅ Zeinab mandour (talk) 03:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cool.  Done with his edit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am so sorry to edit this again.

Current wording:He responded that his focus was who was killing the peaceful demonstrators, and that the focus of security forces should be on protecting them from armed demonstrators.

Desired wording and sources:He responded that his focus was who was killing the peaceful demonstrators, and that the focus of security forces should be on protecting them from armed demonstrators.(The written word killingk never mentioned in his statement in Al Arabia; but the political propaganda changed the word deal by the word killing)[13]

Zeinab mandour

Gråbergs Gråa Sång What do you think about this edit?–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CaroleHenson Sorry, I don't really know. I can't read the language and I don't like relying on gtrans for stuff like this. For simplicity, I like the idea of an actual quote like at [14]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Gråbergs Gråa Sång!

Zeinab mandour that makes sense to me to go back to the direct quote rather than making conclusions. What do you think?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This response does not clarify what he said, Rather it just states that his response was to what the security services said when they were asked about who killed the peacful protesters. His reponse must be written completely, because when the reader reads the previous paragraph about his order to kill peacful demonostrators [Portal news] without reading his actual response in the following paragraph, he will adopt what he read in the first paragraph [Portal news]. Zeinab mandour

My take on this is that it is entirely appropriate to have a response to an allegation. That said, though, it seems that a number of people felt that his remarks incited violence. He did mention that the security services should deal with the situation. It's not appropriate for us to take anything beyond what he said. I wonder if this is a better quote: He said that "he was not referring to the peaceful demonstrators, but to the armed demonstrators.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree what about this wording?

Current wording:He responded that his focus was who was killing the peaceful demonstrators, and that the focus of security forces should be on protecting them from armed demonstrators.

Desired wording and sources: He responded that his focus was who was killing the peaceful demonstrators, and that the focus of security forces should be on protecting them from armed demonstrators. Also He said that what he said in Al Arabia was not referring to the peaceful demonstrators, but to the armed demonstrators.[15] Zeinab mandour

That seems too long and wordy.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How about this edit??

Current wording:He responded that his focus was who was killing the peaceful demonstrators, and that the focus of security forces should be on protecting them from armed demonstrators.

Desired wording and sources:He responded that, In his talk he was focusing on the armed protestors not the peaceful demonistrators but Al- Arabia has presented cuts of his talk in a fabricated manner for a bad political intention. [16] Zeinab mandour

This part is good but needs a bit of copy-editing: He responded that, In his talk he was focusing on the armed protestors The rest is not good, it is not our place to come to conclusions that are not in the cited sources. Do you have a reliable news source that says these thing?–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, no.Let's leave it as it is until I find another, more reliable source?? Zeinab mandour

Sounds good.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I want to ask if Awad had a regular associate from The Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoritical Physics and i contact them to verify this and they sent me a verify email that he was a regular associate from 1996-2002, and they said that there is no available database online tracking back all former associates and they get his information from their internal database..... How i can publish this information here??? Can i upload a copy of there email or can any one email them to verify this?? Their email in there page in the below link https://www.ictp.it/programmes/career-development.aspx#anchor_1160

Also he had awards and associates from british council 1984, Ford foundation in stanford university 1983, The third world academy of Science (they change the name to The world academy of Science)1994-2000. I contact all of them to give me a link because i couldn't find all of their links. From my opinion i think it's hard to find links to these awards and associates because it's all before 2002 and some in 80s, i don't know how to solve this problem???Zeinab mandour

Personal correspondance doesn't work for this (or anything on WP), the award/fact has to be WP:PUBLISHED in some form of WP:RS, be it website, book, magazine, newsprogram or whatever. A basic thing about WP is that it is supposed to summarize published (and reasonably accessible) sources, anything else is out of our scope.

For example, here is a page where an award-org lists the people they've awarded. That may be enough to mention the award in a WP-article about a recipient (in this case it probably will since that org has a WP-article), but even better is an independent WP:RS who noticed that this happened, like [17]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also I have a copy of his master of science 1979 & PhD 1982 certificate from Newcastle university and a diploma certificate 1977 from kent university can i upload it here to verify it??? Zeinab mandour(talk) 12:11, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Like these? Per above, no. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:33, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, am I reasonably correct on the above? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Gråbergs Gråa Sång, absolutely. We cannot do things based on primary sourcing, and have users submit material. For awards, my standard is this (I don't know if this is a Wiki-wide guideline, but maybe it should be): if it is a notable award (and that often means if it has a Wikipedia article), then the website of the awarding agency can suffice. For instance, Honorée Fanonne Jeffers's The Age of Phillis was long-listed for the 2020 National Book Award for Poetry--a very notable award, and for that this link suffices. If it is not a notable award, but a properly independent (not local) source verifies it, then it can be listed. This is pretty much what you said for the Africa Food award. Ha, it's nice to see agreement. In your case, of course, it relies on the reputation of the Vanguard, and that's what I mean with properly independent. If an academic gets some award but it's written up only in the campus newspaper or on the university website, that's typically not enough. Zeinab mandour, does that help? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 14:19, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense to me.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll note here though that per Category:Sudanese awards, WP has 1 such article (an award which I'm fairly confident he doesn't have, too young), so existing WP-article will not help us in this particular case, for Sudanese awards at least. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the awards, there's no newspaper articles or postings on relevant websites? They don't sound like Sudanese awards, they sound like awards from the US and UK, if I am understanding correctly. I am still a bit foggy this a.m., though, I may be missing something.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These awards and associates are from Europe and America. Drmies , can I reference the association and awards only to their websites without a specific reference to his name in these websites?? Zeinab mandour (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Depends. That an association is notable doesn't mean their awards are. I once won a bunch of money from Sigma Tau Delta (one of them had a name, the Regnery Award or something, and I later won the Elaine W. Hughes Outstanding Advisor Award), but the mere fact of them being somewhat notable doesn't make the award notable, not in an encyclopedia. So I think my answer is no, if I read your question correctly. Plus, for this biography, does it matter? We're not writing resumes. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Awad Hajali Ahmed (cropped).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]