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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Black-necked grebe/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2017 [1].

Black-necked grebe

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Nominator(s): RileyBugz会話投稿記録 & Kostas20142 (talk) 00:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a grebe that can be found throughout the Northern Hemisphere (and in some places in Africa). Me and Kostas think that the article meets all of the featured article criteria, and I personally think it to be an interesting read. Hope you enjoy it! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from FunkMonk

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Thanks for the suggestions! Hopefully the taxonomy section is interesting enough. The original scientific name is the same as it is today, so I didn't have to do too much there. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:42, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have photos of the juvenile, and though not a particularly good picture, we should always show it if images are available:[2] Also shown in this video, which could be an interesting adittion.[3] As well as this photo of a feeding individual.[4] There seems to be other interesting stuff on Commons as well.
Added the first two, but not the third. Although it is interesting, it just shows it eating, not doing things like diving. I did, although, add a picture of the black-necked grebe diving. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:42, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This free photo on Commons seems to show some kind of interesting behaviour (courtship display, according to the caption there):[5]
Transferred to Commons and added. It is in fact courtship behaviour. There is actually a name for this; the penguin dance. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 17:08, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems off that you use the scientific name in one caption under description, yet the common name in another. Seems the second image shows the other subspecies, so you could state this in the caption.
Fixed and done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:23, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should end each subspecies sentence under taxonomy with a citation for clarity.
I'd disagree; I think that it would be unneeded, as the reader should be able to understand that it is all from the same source. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:46, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I see, there are no such exceptions at Wikipedia:Citing sources or Wikipedia:Verifiability. Only the lead is exempt from citations. Every stand-alone sentence should be cited, we can never know what the reader may or may not understand. The info could just as well be from different sources, but it isn't apparent. FunkMonk (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I think I understand which sentences you mean. Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:57, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The other subspecies', P. n. gurneyi, is slightly smaller than the other subspecies" Repetitive.
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 01:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The adult of this subspecies also has, on its lesser wing-coverts, a rufous-brown tinge." Sentence seems overly convoluted, why not just "The adult of this subspecies also has a rufous-brown tinge on its lesser wing-coverts."
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in addition with the tufts" In addition to.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 01:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems a bis strange that you show each subspecies in the taxobox, but one with breeding and one with non-breeding plumage, but then show both under description with non-breeding plumage. Better to show both with breeding plumage in the taxobox, or take the non-breeding image out (you already show it better under description).
I switched this up a bit. I'm going to show both in the taxobox (but both will be the nominate subspecies), and then take out one of the images in the description (the one showing the nominate subspecies in non-breeding plumage). I think that it is better to do this because it is better to show the major variations in the species in the taxobox (like how we sometimes show both male and female birds in the taxobox when the two have a large difference). RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, wonder why I didn't think of that instead... FunkMonk (talk) 19:48, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As of 2016, the black-necked grebe is classified as of least concern by the IUCN" Not needed, and repetitive.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "classification of the species as of least" Again.
I actually changed this to "the current classification of this species" and removed the whole "least concerned" thing, as it is a bit repetitive. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the past, this species was threatened in North America by egg collecting and the millinery industry." When and how?
Date not specified (both in the source and in other sources I found), but I specified how the millinery industry affected it (I think it should be pretty clear how egg collecting would affect it). RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "hunted in the Gilan Province and northern Iran" There should be a way of making it clear that the Gilan Province is in Iran without being repetitive.
Fixed this. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(although this can vary, with nests ranging from about 20 centimetres (8 in) to over 30 centimetres (12 in)) on average while nests in colonies have an average diameter of about 25.5 centimetres (10 in)." Not sure this very long sentence needs to parenthesis, also looks confusing with the multiple× parentheses within a parenthesis.
Fixed this by removing the parenthesis and breaking up the long sentence. Hopefully it works for you. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it will often nest in mixed-species colonies." With which other species? I see you mention one species further down, but why not just mention it briefly the first time you mention mixed colonies?
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is suggested that sometimes, some pairs" Why is this only "suggested", when almost everything else is stated as fact?
This is suggested because it was inferred from the data; specifically, the author of the paper thought that since there were more nests than grebes at a certain colony, that some grebes watch over more than one nest. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "individuals used the whole area of the lake" Use the whole area of a lake? Why definite tense?
It's definite because I previously used "the breeding lake" (two sentences back) and "the lake" (one sentence back). Thus, since it is already introduced (as the breeding lake), it is definite. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with the last note only able to be heard" "Less audible" would sound better, and is less wordy.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This grebe lays one, but sometimes two,[9] clutch" The tenses are messy here, could be rewritten.
Rewrote this. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:34, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use the word "although" an incredible amount of times, could be good with some variation.
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Egg in a museum collection" Name the museum, WP:easter egg links are advised against.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:29, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This is compared to other species of grebes, which cover up their eggs when leaving the nest." This seems odd. You could say "by comparison, other species" etc.
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Predation does not usually take eggs" This is oddly worded. You could say predators, or "eggs are usually not lost to predation" or such.
Reworded. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't explain why it needs to migrate for moulting
I'm guessing you meant to say that I don't need to explain what a moult migration is. I cut that part. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe, other way around, I was wondering why it has to migrate to moult? FunkMonk (talk) 17:43, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. I added a bit, so one should be able to understand why. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:48, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is this in US English? You write "moult" (instead of "molt"), which is UK English. You also say colour instead of color.
No, it is written in British English. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are all those external links really useful?
Seems not. I'll keep the Wikispecies and Commons links, but I will get rid of the rest with the exception of the link to Cornell. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "this bird greyish-black upperparts," Has?
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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Only minor issues:

  • Ref 2: You should note that the source language is German
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:55, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 10 carries a "subscription required" note, yet it's the same source as ref 6, which doesn't.
The latter is in fact a different source that is freely accessible. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:55, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publisher locations missing from 11, 14 and 29
Done, except for 29, which should be a journal, which I have now converted it to. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:55, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, all sources appear to be of appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Brianboulton: I have replied to all of your comments. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 02:20, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All sources issues resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 08:02, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sabine's Sunbird

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Glad to see the bird train continued while I was on holiday. Some comments:

  • Taxonomy is a bit threadbare. No reference to relationships with other grebes within its genus. HBW notes that Sometimes placed in genus Dytes (not noted at all in article) and Often considered to include †P. andinus as a race. (the extinct Andean Grebe) and Also closely related to P. juninensis, P. occipitalis and P. taczanowskii. Older specific name caspicus officially suppressed. E African birds sometimes placed instead in race nigricollis. All of these points probably merit mention. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:19, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I actually got myself to search through the archives for the story behind this. Hopefully it will now satisfy you. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Tres bien. I'll go through the rest tomorrow. Sabine's Sunbird talk 08:59, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some weird stuff happening with structure. Information about migration is pretty thin and scattered around article. The following from BNA would add some context to the single statement of the wintering grounds of NA birds for example: Despite broad breeding range, main winter range is fairly restricted. Hundreds of thousands, the vast majority of the population, evidently winter around islands in the n. and central Gulf of California, with additional tens of thousands on the Salton Sea, CA. Several thousand winter on salinas at Guerrero Negro, Baja California Sur (Carmona and Danemann 1998); only small numbers are reported elsewhere.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bird migrates in winter, to places such as the Palearctic and east Africa and Asia. This is very imprecise and not very helpful. Birds migrate to Asia from Asia?
Clarified. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Palearctic Is a similarly unhelpful descriptor of its wintering range. Click on the link to see. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I specified where (in terms of direction). Hopefully that clears things up. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:06, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • it travels as much as 6,000 kilometres (3,700 miles) to reach prosperous areas that are exploited by few other species Prosperous is an unusual word here.
I would disagree; they fly to areas where there is basically shrimp (and really only shrimp) everywhere. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is usually used in a financial sense or referring to success. I have never seen it refer to the natural wealth or condition of a land, only in the sense that it is used. Sabine's Sunbird talk 08:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, maybe it is a difference between American and New Zealand literature. Anyways, would "flourishing" do? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 11:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, I moved here but grew up in the US and UK. I would say to reach rich feeding areas... Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird: I'm done! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pair formation in the black-necked grebe starts during pauses in the migration to the breeding grounds. It continues through the breeding season, and sometimes occurs on the wintering grounds. This suggests that it can start before the pauses. Also, perhaps it is fair to say it happens during migration, and qualify after?
Fixed. The source doesn't say, although, that it happens during migration itself. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The eggs, although they are not initially spotted, do get stained by the plant matter that the nest is built out of. Does this mean that the stains are always spotted in appearance?
No, my bad. Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:15, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Predation is usually not the primary cause of egg loss, with most failures occurring when the chicks have hatched this is the first introduction of the concept of nesting failure in the article, so I would preceed failure with the word nesting. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator query: Sabine's Sunbird, do you have anything further to add here? Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the subspecies description section you render the names of subspecies three different ways, one just the subspecific epithet, once the full trinomial and once the trinomial with the genus and species abbreviated. Is there a reason for this inconsistency?
When I used just the epithet, I was saying something specific about the epithet itself (the etymology, in this case). I only used the abbreviation after I had already written out the genus (or species) that I abbreviated in full. Hopefully that makes sense. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When breeding, the black-necked grebe gives a quiet "ooeek" that ascends in pitch from an already high pitch. This call is also used as a territorial call Is the "when breeding" referring to the whole season or the actual act? If the whole season then is there another specific behaviour or purpose alluded to in the first sentence? Also, how can the call be territorial when the species is noted not to be territorial later in the article?
The source doesn't specify in relation to the first sentence. Second, it was only mentioned that it wasn't territorial when courting. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If the species is territorial in other contexts it should be mentioned to avoid the misunderstanding that I mentioned being made. I did some follow up research and I see the species maintains a small breeding territory in the immediate vicinity of the nest. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:41, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Added. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:40, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This grebe is silent when it is not breeding[4] and when it is feeding or resting per above it would be good to make the distinction between seasons and behaviours more explicit here.
Luckily, the source does specify here. Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • After a period of time, it migrates to winter in places such as Maybe After completing its moult they may remain on the lakes for several months before moving to their wintering grounds (BNA).
Changed it to something similar. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has the effect of the behaviour of black-necked grebes changing in response to the availability of brine shrimp; very wordy, maybe The behaviour or black-necked grebes changes in response to the availability of brine shrimp;
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This species builds its floating nest in the usually shallow water of[21] open lakes.[22] The nest itself is anchored to the lake by plants try The black-necked grebe nests on open lakes, building a floating nest in shallow water and anchoring it to plants - a little simpler and you don't have to cite mid sentence without a punctuation mark. Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I messed up here. Citation 21 doesn't support it; instead, citation 22 supports it. So, I will correct that. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

support Comments from Cas Liber

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Taking a look now....

  • There are currently three accepted subspecies, including the nominate subspecies. - err, why mention the nominate here? Comes over as odd...
So that people don't assume that there are three accepted subspecies, in addition to the nominate. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 12:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd move mention to the sentence The subspecies californicus can be distinguished by its usually longer bill. --> "The subspecies californicus can be distinguished (from the nominate subspecies) by its usually longer bill. "
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • To get crustaceans, molluscs, tadpoles, and small frogs and fish, this grebe dives. - odd flow and odd use of "get" - I'd rejig as "This grebe dives to catch/hunt crustaceans, molluscs, tadpoles, and small frogs and fish."
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • link brine shrimp in lead.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • date Brehm's description in the body of text
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 12:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This grebe eats mostly insects (both adult and larval insects) ...why not just say "This grebe eats mostly insects, of both adult and larval stages.."
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Been busy and rushed for time. Will have another look later, but looking on track...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • link moult at first instance in body, link biotoxin.
Done; also changed the link to moult in the lead to the first occurrence (to "moulting"). RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:58, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise I think that's about it. Not seeing any prose clangers and looks pretty comprehensive so cautious support Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source Review from Adityavagarwal

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Coordinator query: Adityavagarwal are you supporting this on sourcing, or in general? I only ask because it is not clear on what grounds you are supporting, and we had a source review earlier in this FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sarastro1 I thought the previous source review was on general formatting and reliability, and not on spot checks, right? So, I supported on just sources, and not prose (meaning it is all clear source-wise, and spot checks were also fine). It is not included in the general three prose reviews required for an FAC. It is just to mention clearly that source review went all fine! If support should not be mentioned for this and just the sentence stating that the source review went fine, please let me know! :) Adityavagarwal (talk) 06:48, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Image review

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From here. What that means, I have no idea. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like it's copyrighted to me. May want to ask on commons:User talk:Merops why they did upload the image under that license. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:49, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Hopefully they reply soon. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It seems very likely the Commons user is the photographer, as he also links the website the image is from on his userpage.[6] An email is also listed in the file description, so the photographer can also be contacted there. FunkMonk (talk) 22:43, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And the smoking gun is that the English userpage Merops links to is called Andreas Trepte, like the photographer:[7] FunkMonk (talk) 22:44, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's stated in a link near the bottom of the about page on the source website. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 17:25, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No ALT text so no comments on it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added alt text, if you want to take a look. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 01:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seems OK to me. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: I notice that there is still an unaddressed issue with one of the lead images, and I'd like that to be sorted before we promote. Otherwise, we are good to go. In the meantime, if someone could have a look at the use of "however" in the article (see WP:HOWEVER) as it is often unnecessary. Finally, I note that there is no alt text in the article. While this is not an explicit FA requirement, and is not an obligation, I always feel that FAs should demonstrate best practice on this issue. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can I just check how we are progressing on this last issue? Also, Jo-Jo Eumerus, if we cannot get a response from the uploader, what is the best way to move forward on this? Sarastro1 (talk) 10:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The question of the first image touches on one of the least likeable aspects of Wikipedia's copyright policy (at least for me). Unless people really are questioning the copyright status of the first image, I'd recommend to leave it but to ask Merops again to clarify the copyright status (RileyBugz did actually post that question and immediately reverted themselves, so I am not sure if Merops actually saw it or no). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did it because it seems that FunkMonk has basically solved the mystery. I'm willing to revert myself again, though. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK, pardon me if I'm being thick, but I'm still not sure if the image issue is resolved, and if not, what remains to be done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We do not have any explicit link from the website to the Commons uploader, that's is my only issue. I see no reason to doubt that Merops is the same person as the copyright owner of that website, so I'd accept that the image is freely licensed but would encourage Merops to say so on the website as well, otherwise people will be confused. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:43, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: OK, I'm assuming from this that the images are all good to go and will be promoting shortly. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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