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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 3

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December 3

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NEW NOMINATIONS

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Category:Viking Age slave trade

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Nominator's rationale: rename to something more general, it was a trade chain from eastern Europe to among others Al-Andalus, the Vikings had something to do with it, but did not dominate the whole chain. The issue is not that Vikings were around in this period, the issue is that most Slavs weren't Christianized yet and hence were accepted as subjects of slave trade. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There seem to be a misunderstanding here. This category is meant to be used for the slave trade which was managed by the vikings specifically, not just slave trade taking place in Europe during the middle ages. That would be too wide an issue: there is also for example the Prague slave trade, the Venetian slave trade, etc.
The vikings did not dominate the trade in slaves from Western Europe to al-Andalus. They did participate in it, certainly, but they did not dominate it.
They did, however, certainly dominate the trade in slaves from Europe to the Middle East via Eastern Europe/"Russia". The slave trade played a major part for viking economy, and the vikings played a major part as a supplyer for the trade in European slaves to the Abbasid Caliphate via Russia.
The category is meant to be used only for the slave trade of the vikings. It could be a subcategory of a future middle ages slave trade of course. --Aciram (talk) 22:21, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is not just the element of supply, there is also a further chain and a demand side. Via Prague the slaves went to al-Andalus and via Bukhara there were various other sources of slave supply than Vikings too. Attributing everything to the Vikings skews the facts. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts on Marcocapelle's most recent comment?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: See above relisting comment
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 21:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I agree with Marco that the category should be broadened, because "dominate the trade" is really too fuzzy of a feature. SMasonGarrison 21:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Non-Assamese-language films with Assamese connection

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Nominator's rationale: For consistency with Category:Japan in non-Japanese culture. Kailash29792 (talk) 14:49, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Rename or delete?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 21:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:PlayStation 4 Pro enhanced games

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Nominator's rationale: A large number of recent games have undocumented support for this system and fall into this category, but many don't have reliable sources confirming such support, so it is impossible to have a properly representative and accurate list without breaking WP:DEFINING. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memoryman3 (talk • contribs)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I will tag the categories
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep I have to disagree this is not defining... For the recent PS5 Pro release in Nov there was a big to do on the games that would be enhanced. That support for the games being in these categories is big in the articles for the games is not a fault of the category but editors failing to add appropriate sources when including them in these categories. Masem (t) 20:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per same rationale as Masem. Can't blame the category if editors aren't properly citing sources. --JDC808 ♫ 22:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Redirects of fictional people by nationality

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Nominator's rationale: This, all of its sub-categories and other sibling categories which I can't be bothered to tag as the editor keeps creating more and more of these as I write this. These are pointless category intersections. A redirect should already be tagged with redirect categories which places it in the relevant redirect categories. If it also needs to be in content categories it could be added there. This tree, if left to exist, will duplicate a massive amount of categories for no real reason. Gonnym (talk) 18:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had to create them because Kung Fu Man thinks that redirects should not be added to categories. Like, these redirects were created for characters that do not their own articles. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 18:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything at Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects that prohibits adding content related redirects (a television character redirect) to relevant content categories. That pages also gives an example of placing Wile E. Coyote in Category:Fictional coyotes. If that guideline page wanted to explicitly prohibit adding these pages to content pages, it should have said that. Gonnym (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
KungFuMan's explanation is pretty confusing. I understand why he did remove them but does not make any sense if any characters does not had their own articles. Like, look how he removed categories in one of the redirects Engineer (Team Fortress 2). Like if he wants to avoid category bloat, then he should have ask if the redirects should be moved to separate categories. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 18:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just an update, there are no rules in adding category. We could still delete them and add new redirect to lists if it turns out well. Delete (right away) just for now. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 20:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by criminal charge

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Nominator's rationale: Seems to be a clear consensus at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Category:People charged with rape that including articles in categories such as "People charged with X" is a violation of the policy on including BLPs in criminal-related categories at WP:BLPCRIMINAL.

WP:BLPCRIMINAL states that a requirement for inclusion in a sub-category of Category:Criminals is that "the subject was convicted; and the conviction was not overturned on appeal.".

Given that many of the proposed categories already have sub-categories for people who were convicted, keeping categories for "people charged with X" just invites articles to be added to the "people charged with X" criminal categories before they've been tried and/or convicted.

For any subcategories that are "People convicted of X" or "People acquitted of X", I would propose relocating them to be under Category:People by criminal conviction and Category:People acquitted of crimes, respectively, if they aren't already there. RachelTensions (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question: What about for non-BLPs? Some people surely died before they were convicted, which in some cases is defining enough. I still don't get why we need a separate convicted of tree in addition to the actual crime category. Ideally we'd delete those too, but that will never happen. I feel like in a world where we restricted this to only non-BLPs this category would be fine, but I don't think that's feasible. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom, with one exception: Category:People charged with apostasy in Iran has been nominated elsewhere for renaming to "convicted". Marcocapelle (talk) 21:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support in principle. However, I don't think that we can just delete the categories without handling the fact that they have the charged crime in common. For example, we would need to move People convicted of crimes against humanity to crimes against humanity otherwise after the deletion, it would only be in People convicted of international crimes. I do wonder if converting the categories into container categories with this explanation about policy would facilitate navigation. SMasonGarrison 21:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose mass deletion. For clarity, BLPCRIMINAL states: Category:Criminals and its subcategories should be added only for an incident that is relevant to the person's notability; the incident was published by reliable third-party sources; the subject was convicted; and the conviction was not overturned on appeal. If we are including verifiable content in articles that state people were charged with X, per WP:BLPCRIME via WP:BLPPUBLIC, then how does it suddenly become a BLPVIO to place them in a cat that says they were charged with X? WP:CATV says Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. And some of these people in these cats are dead, so BLPCRIMINAL doesn't apply. For instance, Jeffrey Epstein, charged with sex trafficking, which is quite clearly relevant to his notability. We also have Category:Sexual misconduct allegations, these are just allegations, some of the people in this cat have never been charged, tried or convicted. Joe Biden and Clarence Thomas are both in that cat. Are we saying that cat is a BLPVIO as well? If someone wants to make a case by case basis to exclude a BLP from a cat, that is fine, but I oppose this mass deletion per the rationale provided. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Video games in East Asia

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Nominator's rationale: First of all, shouldn't the category name be "Video gaming in East Asia" in consistency with similarly-named categories? Also, this is the only category for video gaming in a region or continent. It contains two distinct articles at the moment though that are defining. If not delete, then rename. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 16:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Lists of political parties in the Netherlands

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Nominator's rationale: Right now, 3 out of the 6 articles are not part of the Netherlands, but are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. So it should be renamed. Another option is to delete the category altogether, because they are not really related and can be found through Category:Politics of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (of which this category should be a direct child if kept). Dajasj (talk) 09:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Set designers

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Nominator's rationale: As the main article (scenic design) states, these are the same thing. The categories should be merged to match the main article. The two child categories should also be merged/renamed as proposed above. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Yacht clubs in the United States

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Nominator's rationale: rename, for consistency with most of its subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Smasongarrison, Armbrust, and Yachty4000: pinging contributors to an opposed speedy proposal the other way around. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I'm fine with either direction, my goal is consistency. SMasonGarrison 13:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Times that 1000 Wikipedians supported something

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Nominator's rationale: This is to clarify that this category is for any pages with >1000 signatures supporting something. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 November 20#Category:Times that 1100 Wikipedians supported something where there was some support for the rename. We can also rename to "Times that 1000 or more Wikipedians supported something" after Wikipedia:Times that 1000 or more Wikipedians supported something if people find the "+" confusing. All, except one, of the pages here are >1,100 signatures anyway. – robertsky (talk) 05:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom. One might expect that people would naturally understand the concept of "more than" but that appeared not to be the case recently when categories were created for 1100 and 1200 supporters. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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