Talk:51st (Highland) Division

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The history outline differs from that. You should correct the data. --129.187.244.28 (talk) 10:39, 8 December 2016 (UTC)Reply

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:57, 23 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

It seems unlikely that they were evacuated from Dunkirk and then returned to France, given the timescales involved, if so this must have been very rapid. Reading Dunkirk evacuation it seems that like a significant section of the BEF they were cut off from the main body of the BEF by the German dash to the coast. PatGallacher (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

FYI, 51 (H) Division was attached to the French Army on the Saar, getting patrolling experience on the Maginot Line, when the German attack began in May 1940. The division was then moved to northern France. It formed part of French 10th army and was involved in operations on the Somme and in the subsequent retreat, until it was overtaken by German armoured formations and forced to surrender. JF42 (talk) 16:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

I have deleted the image of a Highland Division sergeant wearing a kilt in a Maginot line fort in 1940, and the associated text in the article suggesting that "However Imperial War Museum images show the men of the 51st Highland Division wearing kilts while they manned the Maginot Line in France in 1939 and 1940." (bold added). Firstly, the interpretation of a primary source could be judged to be WP:OR and does not over-ride the detailed researches of a notable historical writer. Secondly, the other photographs [1][2][3] of the Highland Division on the Maginot Line all show soldiers in this unit dressed in the normal battledress of the British Army at the time. Lastly, the photograph that I have deleted is clearly a propaganda photograph of a staged scene. Clues include the collection of rifles with their bayonets fixed inside a concrete bunker - looks wonderfully warlike, but of no real use (in fact, an actual danger) inside the fortifications unless they have been breached by the enemy; and the box for the periscope, with its French stencilling, which is rather awkwardly positioned for the user. I suspect that the sergeant in the photograph was persuaded to borrow a bandsman's kilt.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:44, 13 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

The 'HD' flash was adopted by the re-formed 51st Highland Division in 1941-42. Prior to that the divisional formation flash was a St Andrews Cross. JF42 (talk) 16:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Looking at the edit[4] by User:JF42, is this edit based on precise information, or simply on the fact that the officers were sent to a different destination? My understanding of sources is that all the "other ranks" went to Stalag XX in the first instance - though many ended up in other camps once the Germans got their POW arrangements a bit more organised.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:23, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have rephrased to show that the officers went elsewhere. If anyone persists with the view that any significant number of other ranks initially went to a different camp, good refs would be needed. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

The edit was indeed based on the simple fact that the officer POWs of 51<H>Div were sent to separate camps.

JF42 (talk) 12:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

" Daylight patrol of the 1/6th Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders ... Troops firing into a dug-out in a deserted German trench to dislodge any remaining Germans."

This photograph has been carelessly captioned, either by IWM or Wikimedia Commons. It is plainly not an action photograph. The one soldier with his rifle vaguely at the ready as he peers into the dug-out entrance is evidently not firing. Not least because a fellow soldier, visible in the entrance, has already entered the dugout and is inspecting the position. JF42 (talk) 02:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

This article uses Saul David's number of over 10,000 PoWs. In his book David gives no sources for his figure of 10,000. Hugh Sebag-Montefiore in his book "Dunkirk: Fight to The Last Man" cites the Bundesarchive record of 7th Panzer Division from 12 June 1940 RH27-7/220 with a figure of 8,000 British prisoners.

If the number is in doubt and Sebag-Montefiore's number has a source should it be used instead? Brownag (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

If the source is a war diary dated 12 June, then I would be very surprised if it had an accurate record of all the prisoners taken. There were even, if I recollect the account correctly, some who had yet to surrender. But the main point is that counting all those prisoners is not an instant task and the immediate number is unlikely to be correct. Ideally, a further source can be found.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

The source is a report on the actions of the division on 12 June. I don't have a date when it was written but I doubt 2,000 troops were yet to surrender. Unfortunately David doesn't give a source for his numbers. I suspect it is based on his own calculations in 1994 from Fortune's ciphers and numbers of rescued troops and not from any accurate figures from 1940. Hopefully a further source can be found.

Brownag (talk) 20:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

I was thinking more of the confusion of dealing with several thousand prisoners who were not in the same location - some were in the town, some were on the high ground southeast of the town, and others were on the cliffs toward Veules-les-Roses and the beaches below the cliffs. I think it would be very surprising if the Germans had an accurate count by the end of the day. They were more concerned with getting the prisoners herded into temporary holding areas from which they could not escape. I note that Sebag-Montefiore's footnote on the 8,000 figure says "The reference to 8,000 British prisoners, probably a best estimate, is in the 12 June entry in the 7th Panzer divn files" (bold added). I am checking other sources.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Looking at 1940 the Last Act by Basil Karslake, (pg183) he gives very precise numbers of those of the 51st Highland Division who were evacuated (including some who, as I understand it, were on the Le Havre side of the encircling German advance, and so were not in St Valery) These total 13,196 men. Karslake then states that the 51st Division had a strength of about 25,000 when it left the Saar. The arithmetic on these numbers: 25,000 less 13,196 = 11,804. Of course, the 51st took substantial casualties on the fight back to and in St Valery. I don't have a figure for them. However, a number of other units had been added to the 51st before the surrender. Sorting out which of these units were where is a real tangle (so avoided by most writers on the subject). I know for certain that most of the 2/6th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment made it to St Valery and were taken prisoner. (They were added to the 51st just days before the surrender, so cannot be in Karslake's 25,000.) There were other similar units that might have been captured here as well, but it is hard to be sure. I recollect that the 7th Royal Norfolks were also attached to the 51st (and may possibly be in the 25,000 total). I am reasonably sure there are other units added at a late stage. What this does to the arithmetic on the numbers of POWs taken is not easy to say. However, it is is possible to see how the 10,000 figure may be correct.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

The 7th Royal Norfolks were attached to the 51st as a Pioneer Battalion and were on the strength of the division in France. OB here:

https://51hd.co.uk/accounts/order_bef

Re troops evacuated- a mixed grouping of 51st HD troops, known as 'Ark Force' under Brig. A.C. Stanley Clarke, 154 Bde, was sent back to hold open the route to Le Havre and so escaped the encirclement at St Valery. After defending the harbour perimeter, the survivors were evacuated by sea. Ark Force orders and OB here:

https://51hd.co.uk/accounts/ark_force

JF42 (talk) 11:36, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

The source given above ([5]) does not appear to give a complete list of the troops attached to the 51st at the time of surrender. It is a highly mobile and somewhat confusing story - so it is not surprising that this is the case.

On the subject of not everyone surrendering at the same time, Sauls account mentions 3 companies of the 1st Black Watch (about 200 men) a few km inland at Houdetot. They eventually surrendered some time in the afternoon. (The surrender in St Valery was at about 10:00 in the morning.) Also there were 3 companies of the 2nd Seaforth who had been bypassed by the German advance and late in the afternoon the Germans sent a captured Company Quartermaster Sergeant to explain that everyone else had surrendered - even so, a good number attempted to escape whilst some surrendered. This supports the idea that the German war diary figure is incomplete.

Given the detail of Saul's account, I think we have to give some credence to his estimate of the number taken prisoner. He does have some information on the number killed and how many from Ark Force were evacuated from Le Havre (he states this as 4,000 men).ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

I note the {{pn}} added for this source and its removal with the link to an online version of the book. The cited source is a Kindle book without page numbers. However, pretty much the entire book is relevant to the text it supports – in that those marched from the Eastern camps had a terrible time with weather, dysentery, lack of food, etc. At least two named persons in the book were captured at St Valery with the 51st and can be tracked in the online version. (One, Bampton, was with the 2/6th East Surreys, which were attached to the 51st immediately before the surrender at St Valery.) So one could go through the online book to try and get some relevant page numbers. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 13:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)Reply