The Elder Scrolls Wiki:Moot/Log June 2020

[21:16] Atvelonis: @Verified members Hi friends, we're going to be having our semi-monthly "moot" (wiki policy meeting) in just under one hour, at 8:00 PM UTC (that's 4:00 PM US Eastern). We currently have three topics that users signed up to present in advance, related variously to article formatting and template usage. Any verified member is welcome to participate in the moot, either to discuss or vote on another user's topic or bring up a topic of their own (topic sign-up is not required, just encouraged). Topics do not strictly have to be about wiki editing, although many will be. TES:Moot
[22:00] Atvelonis: The order of topics is as follows:

@Rozty – Renaming the "Appearance" section used to describe the outward appearance of a NPC, as it too closely resembles the "Appearances" section
@Atvelonis – Re-adding the "Appearances" section to quest articles
@Rupuzioks – Stop using {{CardTooltip}} template, since it doesn't work as intended even on PC.

[22:00] Atvelonis: We can wait a few minutes and then Roz should get started.
[22:01] Atvelonis: I need to grab a snack anyway
[22:02] Rozty: oh ok good because my cat is being moody and doesn't eat her perfectly fine food
[22:02] Rupuzioks: I'll be in a bit
[22:02] Stygies VIII: I'm here tbh
[22:02] TinyClayMan: Voting the cat to be fed
[22:03] Stygies VIII: Support –
[22:04] Rozty: stubborn little shit is now running around like a demon
[22:04] Rozty: i give up
[22:04] TinyClayMan: CT it is, then
[22:05] Atvelonis: Lol. May as well get started now
[22:05] Atvelonis: You have the floor
[22:05] Rozty: nice
[22:05] Rozty: even had an example link when i first proposed the topic
[22:07] Rozty: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Hagraven?oldid=3003972 namely this is the problem that i am talking about, where we have a section that describes the appearance of a creature/npc/whatever etc and we choose to name it "Appearance". by itself it's very descriptive but we also have the "appearances" section that is too similar and prone to confuse people if both are included in a page
[22:08] Rozty: since the "appearances (plural)" section is something that we include in almost all pages, compared to the "appearance (singular)" one, i want to find a name to use for the latter
[22:08] Stygies VIII: visual appearance
[22:08] ElderChicken: I have suggested this one before and is sometimes used on Blades articles but Characteristics?
[22:08] Atvelonis: I was going to suggest Characteristics too
[22:08] Rozty: "characteristics was something i used in the example, but yeah, idk if it was used anywhere else?
[22:09] TinyClayMan: Do we have that header in the SaF? Don't see it
[22:09] Atvelonis: Also worth noting that, for whatever reason, this Appearance/Characteristics etc. section isn't even referred to in SF
[22:09] Rozty: for any other reason i mean
[22:09] Rozty: also that
[22:09] Stygies VIII: is characteristics obvious though?
[22:09] Nehpys: "Characteristics" reminds me more of describing someone's character or personality than appearance. I'm leaning towards a "Physical Appearance" section name in this case, even if it isn't particularily attractive to the viewer.
[22:10] ElderChicken: Actually I believed it's used in Blades articles to describe weaknesses etc.
[22:10] Rozty: it's not bad to have it, in case we lack a photo or something, so if we are to keep using it i want to have a name for it
[22:10] Atvelonis: Yeah, I guess that characteristics can be a bit vague. I do prefer brevity in headers though
[22:10] Atvelonis: Hmm
[22:10] Atvelonis: if it has that usage in Blades pages we may want to avoid it
[22:10] Stygies VIII: same as Nehpys, or enchantments of a weapon or something, characteristics are not obvious
[22:10] Rozty: yeah
[22:11] Rupuzioks: maybe something to do with "Model"or "Modelling"
[22:11] TinyClayMan: Do we need this header at all? Can't the contents be moved to the Background or lede?
[22:11] Atvelonis: That's a good question
[22:11] Atvelonis: Roz, do you know how common this header is on character/creature articles?
[22:12] Atvelonis: I can run a quick AWB scan actually
[22:12] Nehpys: Why would physical description be under background, unless explaining why they look like that?
[22:12] Atvelonis: We actually try to avoid a "background" section
[22:12] ElderChicken: Bear (Blades) is an example of where that appears so I guess it would overlap
[22:12] Nehpys: "Maven Black-Briar wears a checkered, wool robe because she woke up in-game and decided to put it on."
[22:12] Atvelonis: Best to merge with the lede unless it refers to a historical background
[22:13] Rozty: i don't know any pages like that other than the one i used as an example
[22:13] Rozty: i remember seeing it before which is why i brought it up in the first place
[22:13] ElderChicken: How would that work though if a character is known to wear more than one outfit? Would that not make the lede too long?
[22:13] Atvelonis: Ok AWB says it's used on about 600 pages
[22:13] TinyClayMan: I don't think I've seen this header in ESO articles at all
[22:13] Rozty: it might have been in game-specific pages that this has happened
[22:13] Stygies VIII: I'd change the header, it is convenient that it is separate
[22:13] Atvelonis: I think that a lot of those uses are incorrect though
[22:13] Rozty: older games, like arena, or some skyrim pages that have too many words
[22:14] Atvelonis: Many of the ones the list came up with are things like Scroll of Ice Spike
[22:14] Atvelonis: Which should be plural, but are erroneously singular
[22:14] TinyClayMan: >outfits on a single character
[22:14] TinyClayMan: Do we really need to describe them? We can put them in the gallery
[22:14] Atvelonis: I think that this section is pretty rarely used on character pages
[22:14] Atvelonis: Tiber Septim has one, for example, but his race is a little unclear so that makes sense
[22:14] Stygies VIII: actually... we could make this a subsection of the gallery
[22:14] Atvelonis: A picture is a thousand words in most cases though
[22:14] Stygies VIII: and change to Description or something
[22:15] ElderChicken: I guess we could, is it necessary to mention when these outfits are worn? e.g. Jarl Balgruuf's Steel Armour set when they are defending Whiterun?
[22:15] Atvelonis: I think that for characters, what clothes/armor they're wearing, if notable, is best shown in a gallery with a caption
[22:15] TinyClayMan: I've usually seen it
[22:15] TinyClayMan: Charactername Outfitname.png|During X
[22:15] Rozty: this is something that is done for eso characters mostly, all their outfit changes are in the gallery as images
[22:15] ElderChicken: Ah, fair enough
[22:15] Atvelonis: For creatures, I think that it should be written out in words a bit because their appearance is more unique
[22:16] Atvelonis: I think that most creatures' appearances can be described relatively briefly, so it would be appropriate in the lede
[22:16] Atvelonis: So a header probably isn't needed at all
[22:16] Rozty: yeah, this is something i can see be used in lore pages mostly
[22:16] ElderChicken: ^
[22:17] Rozty: so the example i linked can be just a special case and fused with the lede?
[22:17] Atvelonis: I personally think that would be best
[22:17] Atvelonis: Other thoughts?
[22:18] Rozty: nope, this is all
[22:18] Rozty: mostly wanted to know what we could do with cases like this where the physical appearance is described
[22:18] Stygies VIII: what about longer descriptions?
[22:18] Rozty: yeah
[22:18] Rozty: also that
[22:18] Atvelonis: Are there situations where it's so long that it shouldn't be in the lede?
[22:18] Rozty: was about to ask if the paragraph in this case should be trimmed or not
[22:19] Atvelonis: I think that paragraph length is ok
[22:19] Stygies VIII: I'm not sure if there are such cases
[22:19] Stygies VIII: but I think renaming would still be better than moving it
[22:19] Rozty: yeah, i don't think there would ever be a situation where the description is too big unless it was worded in a very flowery way
[22:20] Atvelonis: We could be flexible and just say that in the event of a very complex appearance, a section called "Physical appearance" could be used, but most of the time just put it in the lede
[22:20] Atvelonis: Or whatever we want to call it
[22:20] Rozty: "complex appearance" would be one that cannot be described in a short enough text right?
[22:21] Atvelonis: Yeah
[22:21] Atvelonis: Or more likely if there's something specific about their appearance that isn't necessarily super relevant to who/what they are, but is still something that can be spoken about in a certain amount of depth
[22:21] Atvelonis: For example on the Tiber Septim page, you might talk about his race a little bit in the lede but his physical stature isn't really important enough to be there
[22:22] Atvelonis: So a section or subsection for it wouldn't hurt
[22:22] Rozty: yea i see
[22:22] Rozty: i'm fine with that
[22:22] Rozty: where would it go though
[22:22] Rozty: under what section
[22:22] Atvelonis: On Tiber's page he has a "Race" section
[22:23] Rozty: in any other cases would putting it at the end be enough?
[22:23] Atvelonis:
[22:23] Atvelonis: End of the lede?
[22:23] Rozty: like right above the gallery for example
[22:23] Atvelonis: For a character, probably near the bottom
[22:23] Atvelonis: Sections should usually go More important (top) -> Less important (bottom)
[22:24] Atvelonis: For a creature, usually lede, and if notable, a bit higher. I can add it to S:F
[22:24] Rozty: ok, i'm good then
[22:24] Atvelonis: Other concerns or should I summarize?
[22:25] Nehpys: an off point, isn't that first sentance unnecessarily complicated? why can't it just say "but what is known is that he was a subspecies of Men."
[22:25] Atvelonis: Lol. Probably. That page could use some work
[22:25] Rozty: in case of a fourth, yet undiscovered type of race :kappa~2:
[22:28] Stygies VIII: are you sure you want to remove a section commonly seen at wikis (so players will look for it)?
[22:28] Atvelonis: They'll all see it in the lede, though
[22:29] TinyClayMan: People usually read it before moving to the contents table
[22:29] TinyClayMan: So it should be okay
[22:29] Stygies VIII: ok
[22:30] Atvelonis: So the final proposal that we're voting on is as follows: Remove the "Appearance" header on most character/creature articles if the contents of the header can reasonably be fit in the lede, and leave it only if the appearance requires more space to describe, or should otherwise not be in the lede, e.g. if it is a relatively unimportant aspect of an important character's biography. The placement of the header will be described in the style and formatting guide.
[22:30] Atvelonis: Support –
[22:30] Rozty: Support –
[22:30] TinyClayMan: Support –
[22:30] Stygies VIII: Support –
[22:30] Nehpys: Support –
[22:31] Atvelonis: 5-0-0
[22:31] Atvelonis: Continue voting people
[22:31] ElderChicken: Support –
[22:31] Rupuzioks: Support –
[22:32] Atvelonis: That's 7-0-0. I'll wait another minute and then we can move on
[22:34] Atvelonis: Ok. Moving on then.
[22:36] Atvelonis: The next topic is one of mine, "Re-adding the "Appearances" section to quest articles." So for the last 6+ years, our policy on quest article headers has been to omit the "Appearances" section for reasons that are not entirely clear to me. As I recall, an old staff member explained to me once that this was done because a quest does not appear in a game as a character does, rather it is an event that occurs in a game. I understand this line of reasoning, but I think it's a little pedantic and is a weird exception to what is otherwise a pretty standardized part of our articles. My proposal would be to re-add this section to articles. This could be done automatically with a bot.
[22:37] TinyClayMan: I don't understand what will be in there
[22:37] Rozty: yeah, as soon as i saw the topic i thought that a reason it wouldn't be there is because a quest can't appear in multiple games the same way a physical thing like a creature or a character would
[22:38] Atvelonis: Yes, that's another reason
[22:38] Nehpys: That feels pretty weird. In what scenario would a quest appear in seperate games? We'd just have a million

==Appearances==
*{{Skyrim}}

or whatever game on every quest page, with only 1 game, and nothing else.

[22:38] Atvelonis: There are plenty of things that only appear in one game, and only have one entry. The purpose of this would be to comment on the same quest appearing in multiple games, but just to make it more clear what game it's from
[22:38] Atvelonis: It's also a standardized way to draw data from an article

[22:39] TinyClayMan: Any example?
[22:39] Atvelonis: In a DPL table generation, it would be easier to draw data about which game something is from through a standardized header instead of a lede
[22:39] TinyClayMan: I don't think I've seen any quest to be recurring
[22:39] ElderChicken: Surely then there should be a page for a certain objective which appears consecutively in each game and describe where and how it differs from the others
[22:39] Rozty: yeah, it makes sense if it's to differentiate what game the quest appears in
[22:39] Atvelonis: Really the purpose of this is just to make it clear what the game is. Often this is obvious to editors, because of the color scheme we use, or whatever, but not obvious to readers
[22:40] Atvelonis: Usually the game is stated in the lede, but often readers skip right to the walkthrough because they're in a rush and not trying to learn
[22:40] Atvelonis: I think that this provides a bit of redundancy
[22:40] Rozty: that's true, i remember people having trouble with it in the past, and that section could help
[22:40] TinyClayMan: >skipping the lede

>not skipping the header at the bottom of the page wha

[22:41] Rozty: tbh if they skip right in the middle it's their fault
[22:41] Stygies VIII: I'm sorry, I left for a sec
[22:41] Nehpys: if they're already at the page, chances are they were looking for this quest specifically for this game in the first place.
[22:41] Stygies VIII: Reading
[22:41] Atvelonis: Sometimes. Not necessarily. There are a lot of situations in lore research where you don't know what game it's from
[22:41] Rozty: quests can have similar names in some cases
[22:42] Grandmaster Jauffre: Support –
[22:42] Grandmaster Jauffre: Fully support this
[22:42] TinyClayMan: I think if there was a map of where the person looks at the most - it would be the infobox, the lede and the categories
[22:42] Atvelonis: And again, it's also just weird that such an important part of an article (which game it appears in) isn't emphasized
[22:42] ElderChicken: It would really be more for information or trivia to the reader. It could be added as a trivia section or if it did have its own page it would be for lore purposes
[22:42] TinyClayMan: :thinking:
[22:42] Stygies VIII: I think it is obvious which game it is from since the page has this in the lede and mentions things from the game / links to them
[22:42] Atvelonis: Sure. But most other pages mention the game in the lede but also have this section.
[22:43] Rozty: no, it doesn't really fit a trivia section
[22:43] Atvelonis: It's an important thing and I think a little bit of redundancy is valuable
[22:43] Rozty: especially since we already have a section in all other pages for that exact purpose
[22:43] Atvelonis: We implement redundancy in a lot of places for critical information
[22:43] Atvelonis: For example we often repeat things in the lede that are in the infobox
[22:43] Atvelonis: This isn't really any different
[22:43] Atvelonis: And again it could be helpful in a DPL or other data usage
[22:43] TinyClayMan: >in all other pages for that exact purpose

Because unlike the quests, they can be seen in different games

[22:43] Nehpys: For reference, this is a general quest article from Skyrim: Unbound
[22:44] TinyClayMan:
[22:44] Nehpys: As note, the game is said and linked various times in lead, to Skyrim's main quest page, categories, ect.
[22:44] Nehpys: IMO it's unnecessary.
[22:44] Atvelonis: Categories are invisible to mobile users
[22:44] Atvelonis: And I'm aware that it's linked in the lede. It's intentionally supposed to be redundant.
[22:44] Rozty: i just thought of this, but what about quests from specific dlc
[22:45] Nehpys: It's the same, @Rozty .
[22:45] Rozty: for example, quests in eso
[22:45] Nehpys: It's usually linked, in Skyrim's case, as "The Elder Scrolls V: Dawnguard," ect.
[22:45] TinyClayMan: They also use {{DLCNAME}} template
[22:45] Rozty: they have tons of dlc with quests and it can get extra confusing
[22:45] Rozty: even if the color code helps with the game, it doesn't help with the dlc at a glance
[22:45] Atvelonis: What I'm proposing here isn't anything new at all, we actually have this system in 99% of article types already. Making this exception for quests is pretty weird
[22:46] Rozty: and tbh for mobile, you can't even see the infobox color, nevermind the categories
[22:46] Stygies VIII: okay, but is there a quest that is identical in a few games?
[22:46] Nehpys: Even ignoring the "its an event in-game" explanation, it isn't that weird at all. It's not like Sinderion, who appears in two games. Unbound is never going to come back in TES6, nor was it ever in any past game where the Appearances section is relevant.
[22:47] Atvelonis: The appearances section for quests wouldn't be about an appearance in multiple games
[22:47] Rozty: it's the very first thing that's mentioned in the page, but it might be better to have the same information appear in a separate section
[22:47] Atvelonis: Again. It's for redundancy purposes, and for data purposes.
[22:47] Atvelonis: The game is literally the most important part about an article
[22:47] Atvelonis: It's worth stating twice, just as we state infobox information at least twice
[22:47] Atvelonis: Sometimes more than twice
[22:48] Atvelonis: If a user scrolls right to the bottom of an article, they can know instantly what game it's from. If they're at the top, then they still know that
[22:48] Atvelonis: For people who read a lot of pages, especially ones on different topics, making it absolutely as easy as possible for them, I think should be a priority
[22:49] Rozty: i agree
[22:49] Atvelonis: There is no situation where a quest would have two appearances, except perhaps (if we want to think about it this way) ESO DLC prologue quests
[22:49] Atvelonis: Which are in the base game but are kinda a part of the DLC
[22:49] Rozty: idk even then it's in the base game
[22:49] Atvelonis: That's not really important though and not the purpose of this
[22:49] Rozty: you can activate it without owning the dlc
[22:49] Atvelonis: Redundancy, and clarity of data
[22:49] Atvelonis: And standardization with every single other type of article
[22:50] TinyClayMan: Hmm

Got an idea for some moot topic

[22:50] Rozty: lol
[22:51] Nehpys: So, vote?
[22:51] Rozty: but yeah, this is one of the things that must be extra clear to the reader, so having it at two different points in the article isn't bad
[22:51] Atvelonis: One second
[22:51] Atvelonis: cat
[22:51] Rozty: lol
[22:52] Rozty: speaking of
[22:52] Rozty: i lost mine
[22:53] Stygies VIII: w h a t
[22:53] Rozty: She's inside the house
[22:53] TinyClayMan:
[22:54] Rozty: I just don't know where
[22:54] Atvelonis: She'll turn up. :musical_note: the cat came back, the very next day :musical_note:
[22:54] Atvelonis: Ok. So the proposal is this: Re-add the "Appearances" section at the bottom of quest articles, for redundant user understanding, standardized usage of the game for data purposes, and in accordance with standardized practice in other sub-pages of the style guide.
[22:54] Atvelonis: Support –
[22:54] Rozty: Support –
[22:54] Rupuzioks: Support –
[22:54] TinyClayMan: Neutral –
[22:55] Rupuzioks: more options to be used by DPL is welcome
[22:55] Stygies VIII: Support –
[22:55] Nehpys: Neutral –
[22:56] Atvelonis: That's 4-2-0 so far
[22:56] Atvelonis: Other votes? @Grandmaster Jauffre, @ElderChicken?
[22:56] ElderChicken: Support –
[22:56] Nehpys: Jauffre was an instant +.
[22:57] Atvelonis: Technically that's not an official vote (not cast during the voting phase) but I'll count the sentiment
[22:57] Atvelonis: 5-2-0
[22:57] Atvelonis: I'll wait a couple minutes and then @Rupuzioks has a topic
[22:57] Rozty: ok am back and found cat
[22:58] Atvelonis: She? She always comes back
[22:58] Atvelonis: (just can't stay away)
[22:58] Rozty: :kappa~2:
[23:00] Atvelonis: Ok. Go ahead Rup
[23:00] Rupuzioks: I propose to stop using "CardTooltip" template, as I heard the tooltips don't work on mobile, and lately even on PC have issues.
[23:01] TinyClayMan: What is that template?
[23:01] Atvelonis: Template:CardTooltip
[23:01] Rozty: ah yeah that one
[23:01] Atvelonis: It's used as a popup for Legends cards
[23:01] Rozty: the images took ages to load in my case
[23:01] Atvelonis: It doesn't really work though
[23:01] Rozty: is it broken in any other way?
[23:01] Rupuzioks: if you want to see the image, you need to hover over the link and then use scroll down mouse button
[23:02] Rozty: nvm, i see the file just cut in half in the template even
[23:02] Atvelonis: https://i.gyazo.com/9c4c19bc043ff9fbafaa01edccd5d386.mp4
[23:02] Rupuzioks: it should be instant as you hover it
[23:02] Atvelonis: It sometimes works, but if there's any element that "cuts off" the template, it breaks
[23:02] Rozty: in the cases it does it would take too long to load too, unless that was fixed
[23:03] Rupuzioks: yeah, also this, cutting off the image
[23:03] Rozty: is there any way that we know of to make it appear on top of all other elements?
[23:03] TinyClayMan: looks bad
[23:03] TinyClayMan:
[23:03] Stygies VIII: I agree it is quite broken and should be removed
[23:03] Rozty: because it's a really nice template and i want it used tbh
[23:03] Atvelonis: I'm not sure. Possibly. But I'm not a big fan of popups as mobile users can't see them at all
[23:03] Rozty: right there's that
[23:03] Atvelonis: It's kinda cool when it does work, but it breaks constantly
[23:04] Rozty: if there is a way to fix this without loading time being too long, can we count this as a privilege for desktop users
[23:04] Rozty: if not, then it should be removed, yeah
[23:05] Rupuzioks: I didn't tested, but maybe adding "z-index" to the div would show it above all other elements
[23:05] Atvelonis: I seem to recall our other popup templates having the same issue so I'm not sure
[23:05] Atvelonis: But I don't think it should be used in mainspace articles at least
[23:05] Atvelonis: On people's userpages, have at it
[23:05] Rozty: we keep the template then and remove it from the legends articles?
[23:05] Rupuzioks: the cutting off is half of the issue
[23:06] Rupuzioks: I always need to scroll down my mouse button while hovering over the link to even see the image
[23:06] Rozty: how about we remove it for now, and if we find a way to make it not break afterwards, we add it back?
[23:07] Atvelonis: It uses a parser function and I'd prefer to minimize that where it's not necessary
[23:07] Atvelonis: Three {{#if:}} calls actually
[23:08] Atvelonis: Not as expensive as {{#ifexists:}}, but still, if they want to see the image they could just link the link
[23:08] Atvelonis: The actual page has more useful information anyway
[23:08] Rupuzioks: yeah, it is for three levels of shouts if necessary
[23:08] Rozty: alright, i'm good with this
[23:10] Rupuzioks: anything else then?
[23:11] Atvelonis: I'm all good. So the proposed topic is: Remove instances of the {{CardTooltip}} template from mainspace articles, as it is broken on desktop and doesn't display at all on mobile.
[23:11] Atvelonis: Support –
[23:11] Rupuzioks: Support –
[23:11] TinyClayMan: Support –
[23:11] ElderChicken: Support –
[23:11] ElderChicken: I don't fully understand but if it's broken then remove it
[23:11] Rozty: Support –
[23:12] Nehpys: Support –
[23:13] Stygies VIII: Support –
[23:13] Atvelonis: 7-0-0 then
[23:14] Atvelonis: We can wait a couple minutes and then I have another topic
[23:19] Atvelonis: Ok, so my next topic is about book articles. For as long as I've been here, the wiki has had very few book articles with ledes. An admin told me once that "we decided not to use leads on books pages because it shows what game it is from at the top of the article." Which I guess I understand, they're very close together. But the problem here is that by excluding a lede, Google has nothing to scrape in the top section of the page, and then goes to the next section, which is usually a list of locations, or the content of the book. This means that search results can get a little wacky and don't really make sense to readers. The SEO people at Wikia have told me several times that every page should have a lede for ranking purposes, and honestly I don't see why books should be the exception. The weirdest part about it is that we technically do allow books to have ledes, but only if they have summaries. So we may as well just give all books ledes for SEO, and then work on adding summaries to the ledes as a content project down the line.
[23:22] TinyClayMan: Major :oppose: for summaries
[23:22] Atvelonis: That's not really part of my proposal
[23:22] Rupuzioks: yeah, there are some weird exceptions for on the wiki, I guess we need to search and remove these exceptions
[23:22] TinyClayMan: Just in case
[23:22] Stygies VIII: the lede could be "a book that appears in [game] on the [topic]" and it is enough
[23:22] Atvelonis: Yes
[23:23] Atvelonis: Summaries aren't necessary given that we have so few of them
[23:23] Atvelonis: And they're really hard to make
[23:23] Atvelonis: I'm more concerned about SEO
[23:23] Stygies VIII: if you need help with topics, The Imperial Library has a system of tags, so you can find a book at TIL and see by tags what it is about
[23:23] TinyClayMan: I don't think much can be added to the lede
[23:23] TinyClayMan: Probably only game and collection
[23:24] Stygies VIII: the lede doesn't need to be long even for SEO
[23:24] TinyClayMan: If ESO
[23:24] Stygies VIII: it needs to say what it is about
[23:24] Stygies VIII: and the game
[23:24] Stygies VIII: for SEO
[23:24] Stygies VIII: imo
[23:25] Atvelonis: {{subst:PAGENAME}} is a [[Books (Game)|book]] in {{game}}. as a bare minimum
[23:25] Atvelonis: I could automate that super easily
[23:25] Atvelonis: What we could do then is manually go through the books, as a content project, and expand briefly on the topic
[23:25] Atvelonis: Perhaps using TIL as a resource, etc.
[23:25] Stygies VIII: yeah
[23:26] Atvelonis: Topic, collection, other useful information can certainly be in the lede I think. Whatever is relevant
[23:26] TinyClayMan: There are several thousand books...
[23:26] Atvelonis: The bot could do it
[23:26] Stygies VIII: if we work together, though, we can go through some
[23:26] Atvelonis: Oh for the second part
[23:26] Atvelonis: Yes
[23:26] Atvelonis: I think that if we organized we could certainly pull it off
[23:26] TinyClayMan: Seems like an unnecessary megaproject
[23:26] Stygies VIII: if it boosts our SEO and improves the wiki, though...?
[23:27] Atvelonis: It would help SEO a good bit
[23:27] Atvelonis: The content is kind of a separate part from my proposal though. I just want a lede
[23:27] Atvelonis: The exact way it manifests, not really a moot thing, that's just standard lede stuff
[23:27] TinyClayMan: Bot can add the lede and maybe even a collection (if it is possible for it)
[23:27] TinyClayMan: But writing all the summaries (even part of the lede - still the same thing) is meh
[23:28] Rozty: seems doable with a bot, i think it would be fine
[23:28] Rozty: idk about the summary thing though
[23:29] Rozty: in the first place i was kinda meh about the summary section that you can sometimes include in a book page, idk if i want more than a phrase at most in the lede
[23:29] Stygies VIII: I think neither me not Atv want full summaries
[23:29] Stygies VIII: nor Atv*
[23:29] TinyClayMan: A short summary isn't that different from a long one
[23:29] Stygies VIII: no but a lede is not a summary
[23:30] Atvelonis: Yeah it is haha. There's a difference between a book synopsis, which is what a "long summary" is, and a short summary of what the book is about
[23:30] Stygies VIII: lmao
[23:30] Stygies VIII: but it is one tiny summary
[23:30] Rozty: for clarification, i was talking about the short tiny summary of the lede
[23:30] Stygies VIII: a h hhhhhh ok
[23:31] Rozty: it could easily lead to people adding more and more in it, and i don't really like the idea of that
[23:31] Rozty: so i think we should make it clear that it needs to be very short and to the point
[23:31] Atvelonis: For example in the Song of Pelinal books, a synopsis would explain everything that happens in the book. The summary I would be thinking of is like "The book centers on Pelinal Whitestrake, a warrior fighting in the Alessian Rebellion." Or whatever. Just takes a surface-level understanding
[23:31] Atvelonis: But again that's not part of the proposal haha. So let's move onto a vote
[23:33] Atvelonis: What we're voting on is as follows: Add appropriately-lengthed ledes to book articles for SEO and reader comprehension purposes. At a minimum, these leads should contain the name of the book, a subject link, and the game that it's in. Editors may also add very short summaries of the focal points of the books, but should not write full synopses.
[23:33] Atvelonis: Support –
[23:33] Stygies VIII: Support –
[23:33] Rozty: Support –
[23:33] Nehpys: Support –
[23:33] TinyClayMan: Support –
[23:36] MrRiddle0: Bit late but just skimmed this proposal and I give it a
[23:36] MrRiddle0: Support –
[23:36] Atvelonis: 6-0-0 then. I'll wait a couple minutes and if there are no more votes then we can move on
[23:37] Rupuzioks: Support –
[23:37] TinyClayMan: I have a moot topic idea related to the Appearances section, but I don't know if it is possible to implement it (and whether it is actually needed)
[23:37] TinyClayMan: Making the section add automatically based on the infobox variable and other pages on the wiki
[23:39] Atvelonis: We can generate categories pretty easily with a Lua module (though we're still working on the syntax for a more functional version, lol), although those generate "in place," i.e. the categories are technically being added in the infobox rather than at the bottom of the page. I'm not sure how to have something generate at a specific place on a page
[23:39] Atvelonis: It might be possible though. I'm not sure
[23:41] Atvelonis: I can look into it. On a similar note I've wondered for a while if it would be possible to make a template that automatically created links to the game pages if you click on the game link (rather than being taken to The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim article etc.). I think that would take a lot of expensive parser functions though
[23:42] Stygies VIII: I'm not sure, either. We'd have to check if it is possible and won't break
[23:43] Atvelonis: Ok so that will be homework for later. Does anyone else have anything they'd like to bring up while we're here? Another topic, just a general announcement, etc.
[23:44] Atvelonis: Oh, I have something actually. I forgot to share this in #noticeboard earlier, I'll do it soon. But the news team did an interview recently with @Rozty. Our goal is to do one of these every month, either with a staff member, community member, or possibly notable people in the broader TES community. User blog:Stygies VIII/Staff Interview: Rozty
[23:44] MrRiddle0: I’m good
[23:44] TinyClayMan: Ah, I had some thoughts about that
[23:45] TinyClayMan: Won't that blog post become lost?
[23:45] TinyClayMan: I didn't see any links to it almost anywhere
[23:45] Stygies VIII: it went on social media and weekly update will contain it
[23:45] Atvelonis: I added it to TES:Interviews
[23:45] Stygies VIII: do you have any ideas on how to showcase it?
[23:46] TinyClayMan: The category is also hard to navigate - is there 1800 pages?
[23:46] Atvelonis: It might not hurt to have a category
[23:47] TinyClayMan: >showcase
[23:47] TinyClayMan: Maybe something like the Main page, but for community hubs (do those exist? all those f and d)
[23:47] Stygies VIII: we didn't want to mix it in with the news section, so a separate place would be needed
[23:47] TinyClayMan: Yes
[23:48] Atvelonis: Maybe on the right rail, like MOTM
[23:48] Atvelonis: Could replace the MOTM module actually
[23:48] Atvelonis: We can see
[23:48] Atvelonis: Should post it on Discussions too, if we haven't already @Stygies VIII
[23:48] Atvelonis: They like this stuff
[23:48] Stygies VIII: actually
[23:48] Stygies VIII: okay I'm doing it now
[23:48] Stygies VIII: and I would be fine with replacing MOTM module
[23:48] Stygies VIII: isn't MOTM on hiatus?
[23:49] Atvelonis: Yeah we haven't used it for a while
[23:49] TinyClayMan: On a lookout for active users
[23:49] Stygies VIII: anyone got more ideas?
[23:49] Atvelonis: I think that's about all we could do to promote it
[23:50] Atvelonis: Any other closing thoughts before we end the moot?
[23:51] Rozty: remove MOTM from main page plox
[23:51] TinyClayMan: naah
[23:51] TinyClayMan: Thifike is fine
[23:51] Rozty: or make it so that you can manually put the date there because thifike has been doing a great job for at least a year now according to it
[23:52] Atvelonis: I'll figure something out.
[23:52] Stygies VIII: or make it smaller
[23:52] Stygies VIII: the module
[23:53] Rozty: remove the date?
[23:53] Atvelonis: I think if it's stale content we should just remove it
[23:53] Atvelonis: And re-add it only once we start having it regularly again
[23:53] TinyClayMan: >at least a year
[23:53] TinyClayMan: October, 19th 2018
[23:53] Rozty: https://gyazo.com/cd2ffeaea9671cb7f3f9ac66ec2768a1
[23:53] Rozty: oh
[23:53] Atvelonis: Been quite a while wow
[23:54] Rozty: it has been way longer than i remembered
[23:54] Atvelonis: Ok. Well if that's all for policy proposals, then by the power vested in me by Todd Howard and Jimbo Wales, I hereby declare this moot to be over!
[23:55] Atvelonis: Thank you everyone for attending. The next moot will take place on 4 July 2020 @ 8:00 PM UTC in this channel, barring further notice. TES:Moot