Talk: Joker (Prime Earth)

New Look[]

I'm not sure if we should do this, considering his look is...somewhat malleable, but should we change his picture to one from Batman (Volume 2) #37, given that's his current look (and it's not the one he has in the picture currently)?GZilla311 (talk) 06:44, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Articles should have a historical perspective. We use the picture that is the best representation of the character overall, not just what they're doing this month. There should be an image of his new look on the page, but it belongs in the appropriate section of his history. - Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 20:12, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Red Hood One[]

Is there any way that we could mend the description of Zero Year Joker? Technically, we don't know when he became Red Hood One because, at some point, it was Liam Distal. The only thing we know for certain about him being Red Hood One is that he was one that fell into the vat. I don't want to ignore the history of Red Hood One but I can't decide how to portray less confidence in his identity here. --- Haroldrocks talk 13:38, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

Origin vs Red Hood[]

The Origins doesn't add up to Joker being Red Hood One. I have two questions How does he get insane and how does he get the white skin? Is it from the chemicals he falls into as red hood or is it due to his Aunt washing him with Bleach? --TheBatman121 (talk) 02:05, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

If you're referring to the Villain's Month issue with the chimp, that is not a canon origin. - Rab Townsend (talk) 13:35, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

So the origin is just a fake one then? --TheBatman121 (talk) 02:06, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Batman revealed that the Mobius Chair told him that there were three Jokers so the origin could be canon for one of them. However, given the mind games the New 52 Joker played it is safe to say that the origin cannot be trusted as being accurate.--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:55, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

3 Jokers[]

In recent comics isn't it revealed that there are 3 Jokers? If this is it true shouldn't this character be divided up into 3?--TheBatman121 (talk) 04:22, November 2, 2016 (UTC)

No. Simply because besides that fact, we know nothing else about it. We don't know what it means or the exact reason behind it. Until there is an explanation, this is the only page for Prime Earth Joker. - S.S. (talk) 04:32, November 2, 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. It would be foolish to divide the article as such since we don't exactly know what this means, and as a result we can't even say for sure which appearances belong to which Joker. Ohdear15 (talk) 14:20, November 2, 2016 (UTC)

I agree splitting up the article makes no sense for the reasons presented...but we should at least note that supposedly Prime Earth has three Jokers. DC Universe: Rebirth #1 confirms there are at least two Jokers.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:45, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

Dark Days: The Casting #1 implies that the third Joker has been locked away in a cell buried deep in the Batcave.--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:48, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

At least two Jokers[]

DC Universe: Rebirth #1 page 4 panel 1 all but spells out there are at least two Jokers:

Alfred: It's the Joker.

Batman: In Civic City, one dead in a candy store, two more held hostage, but..."

Alfred: Mister Wayne?

Batman: The Joker was caught outside of Baltimore three hours ago. They're transferring him to Arkham as we speak.

Batman goes on to say the chair told him there were three Jokers and he needed to find out what that really means.

I should mention that Civic City is in Pennsylvania and was the former home of the Justice Society of America. Baltimore is in Maryland while Gotham City is in New Jersey.

I put this here because there are a lot of silly theories on the internet about the Joker having multiple personalities and such but that would not explain how he could be in two different places at the same time. Now exactly how this was done is speculation.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:15, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

Factuality isn't the problem. It's scope. "In this comic, so and so happens" is out of universe whether it's right or wrong. --Tupka²¹⁷ 18:31, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

We do that on a host of pages. Earth-898's page comes to mind thought there are dozens of other examples.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:48, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

That's because you added the OOU information on Earth-898. I checked the history, it looks like there was already a little bit of OOU content in the description, but you only added more. It's our mistake for not catching that and tagging it as OOU, but that's hardly any excuse to justify spreading more. --- Haroldrocks talk 18:56, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

Changing Profile Picture[]

Now I like official pictures for profiles,mand I strongly reccomend that you replace the current joker image with the one from the batman character encyclopedia cover. It just looks more "Official" which I like. All the pictures of the cover i have seen have relatively poor quality. Could you find a higher quality picture of joker's "Official" look? I think it better suits the page. 🙂User:Villager number 7654|Villager number 7654] (talk)

If you can find such image, make sure to post it here first. As for "official", the Batman Character Encyclopedia is not truly a publication released by DC Comics, so I guess it's utterly incorrect to call it that. - S.S. (talk) 00:37, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

I epuld post the unnoficil image, but the quakity isnt good. Can you find a higher quality version?

Here is the cover i am talking about File:Batman Character Encyclopedia.jpg The preceding unsigned comment was added by Villager number 7654 (talk • contribs).

If you mean to replace the current image with a cropped version of the one in the cover; then no. - S.S. (talk) 03:04, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

Ok. 🙂

Anyone against changing to this? --Sromero78 (talk) 22:04, June 6, 2018 (UTC) File: Doomsday Clock Vol 1 5 Textless Variant.jpg

I don't particularly like that one. But if it should be changed to that, wait at least until DClock is over. - S.S. (talk) 22:13, June 6, 2018 (UTC)

What about these images?File:New Suicide Squad Vol 1 9 Textless Joker Variant.jpg

File:Batman Vol 3 49 Textless.jpg -ABF (talk) 19:43 October 8, 2019 (ETC)

I think that the current image being used is outdated and quite frankly, ugly to look at. I think a better reflection of The Joker would be to use the textless cover from the 80th Anniversary Spectacular. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Creepercraft193 (talk • contribs).

I don't think that image is any better than our current one, and I don't particularly like how Capullo drew Joker there (but that's an opinion). --- Haroldrocks talk 14:54, October 11, 2020 (UTC)

Three Jokers[]

With Three Jokers #3 releasing tomorrow, I'm temporarily locking the page. Could potentially be a continuity nightmare. I'm anticipating we'll have to have a conversation either here or on Talk:Batman: Three Jokers Vol 1 3 about what to. If any new pages are created for the Joker without discussion and a general consensus, I'm going to tag them for deletion. --- Haroldrocks talk 03:40, October 27, 2020 (UTC)

Since Three Jokers has revealed that the Joker has wife and a son, someone should put their links to the page's relatives section. HipperMario (talk) 09:36, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

The reference for the Laughing Man alias is Batman/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III #1.--MysteryScooby (talk) 16:17, October 29, 2020 (UTC)

I'd say the piece about Creating the Jokers we talked about in the Three Jokers first issue page is great, really well written. It's exactly what the Three Jokers storyline says, which is almost nothing. But it adds a lot to the mystery.Judas "Commander" Kidd (talk) 14:19, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, everybody! (And thanks for the alias reference, MysteryScooby, I'll add that in.)

I'll reopen the page now if anybody wants to add the main plot of Three Jokers. Again, I'll keep saying this on every talk page I go on, but because it's so canon-fluid, there's probably inherently going to be disagreements on where the plot should go. I'm thinking it should go between Endgame and Metal, (because that's usually where we put Darkseid War anyway), and I'm guessing the story would realistically take place close to the reveal in DC Rebirth #1.

But yeah, appreciate the help. I'm gonna keep an intense eye on the page just because it'll probably be a hot spot for awhile. Thanks again. --- Haroldrocks talk 14:46, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

It's after Endgame because in #3 they reference Endgame in a panel. And it's before Alfred's death. So it seems a good place to me. Also there's this: Dark Days: The Casting #1 implies that the third Joker has been locked away in a cell buried deep in the Batcave.--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:48, July 13, 2017 (UTC)Judas "Commander" Kidd (talk) 11:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Jack Oswald White[]

In Flashpoint Beyond #5 Martha Wanye states she went to find the man who became the Joker in the main DC reality after Roger Hayden told her everything including that Joker's name: Jack Oswald White.

More over the appearances say "Psycho-Pirate/Roger Hayden (Prime Earth) (Also as a corpse) (Flashback only) (Cameo)" but the only corpse of Hayden we see in flashback is that of the Flashpoint reality so either they are one and the same as the appearance says (making his information valid) or they are different people requiring two different listings.

Finally the news outlets have picked this up with headlines like "DC Comics has finally revealed the Joker's real name" (wionews), "The Joker's Real Name Finally Revealed in Flashpoint Beyond" (IGN), "DC Finally Revealed the Joker's Real Name - CBR", and "DC just revealed The Joker's real name - Dexerto"

As a side note why are some identities the Joker himself has given (like William Distal or the Pale Man) not valid while others (like Jack Napier) are? He is so unreliable narrator how can we trust any identity he gives anyone?--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:06, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The news reports can just be dismissed as clickbait. They'll always gloss over nuance. This is a case of how much of an alternate future (that hasn't even been portrayed consistently) applies retroactively and if it does, does it apply to New Earth or Prime Earth?

I would call any Joker identity unreliable, including Jack Napier. Including Jack Oswald White. None are more valid than any other. If there isn't already, Joker's supposedly real names should be in a note but if it's spliut between two universes that's going to be messy.

Needless to say, we're not moving this page even if it were his real name, because that's SEO seppuku. --Tupka217 (talk) 09:03, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Well it doesn't help that DC keeps hitting the reboot (soft and hard) button like it is a telegraph key. Heck, Infinite Frontier has Queen Hippolyta with different skin color and we are happily going into yet another freaking event (Dark Crisis) which at best will likely reboot yet another part of the main DCU. It has degenerated into self parody at this point. DC needs to stop trying to nuke their multiverse all the time and settle on how hypertime and parallel worlds interact.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Infinite Frontier Hippolyta has the same skin color she was depicted in earlier in Rebirth, especially during Rucka's run. Some artists draw her darker, but some artists also draw her paler. Talia Al Ghul, Damian, and Jessica Cruz are all in that boat, too. It's just an art thing. Also, Dark Crisis explicitly isn't going to involve any rebooting (soft or hard) of the main universe/continuity. It's a crisis in the same way that Final Crisis (or any of the literally 30+ crisises that predate COIE) is a Crisis. The writer has gone out of his way to say this in interviews a dozen times. It's resulting in the full, concrete restoration of the infinite multiverse, but it isn't rebooting Earth-0 at all. Ømn1 (talk) 12:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

While DC will probably retcon Jack White in a few years, I'm thinking it should at least be add to his list of aliases. Ztyran (talk) 03:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I put it in there but they removed it and replaced it with Joker's current alias Johann Kaiser, also I've got an idea since we don't know if it's for New Earth or Prime Earth we should put "Jack Oswald White" as a placeholder title for the Flashpoint Timeline version of the Joker who never became the joker. I get if nobody does this but I'm just putting it out there ExplodingTNT00 (talk) 08:26, 15 July 2023

It's not there already for a good reason.--Tupka217 (talk) 01:27, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me exactly why Jack Oswald White is not listed as the Joker's real name? I've read through this thread but I still don't get it. Flashpoint is a timeline that diverged from the main timeline and Flashpoint Beyond #5 identified Jack Oswald White as the man who would've been the Joker in the main timeline. Jack Napier was only ever used in alternate continuities like Batman (1989) and Batman: White Knight. Gilgamesh de Uruk (talk) 11:36, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

What "main timeline"? --Tupka217 (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Prime Earth and probably New Earth too since Batman's continuity was more or less unchanged with the New 52 reboot. Gilgamesh de Uruk (talk) 13:34, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

There is so much wrong in that one sentence I don't know where to start. --Tupka217 (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not that familiar with Batman continuity so maybe there were some changes in the New 52 reboot. But that's beside the point. Please start with an answer to my original question. Gilgamesh de Uruk (talk) 14:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

It is answered above your question. And it's not "beside the point", it's a major part of the point. --Tupka217 (talk) 14:43, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Above my question is you saying "It's not there already for a good reason". That's hardly an explanation. Gilgamesh de Uruk (talk) 15:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Everything above the section. You not understanding that is not changing it. You're free to think Prime Earth Joker's real name is Jack Oswald White, but we can't use it on this page. --Tupka217 (talk) 15:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not trying to change anything right now. All I want is a simple explanation. I've already read everything above my post several times. It's not clear. Gilgamesh de Uruk (talk) 15:37, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay: Flashpoint is an alternate timeline of New Earth. However, there are several elements different BEFORE the supposed divergent point (Nora not being murdered). It's not a "What If" or "For wont of a Nail" anymore. It's an entirely different timeline. To the point that information from it shouldn't be assumed for New Earth, and definitely not for Prime Earth. --Tupka217 (talk) 16:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Alright, what about my idea where we make a page for the supposed Flashpoint version of Joker that Martha Wayne saw? --ExplodingTNT (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

That was the plan; you're free to make it. --MysteryScooby (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2024

Joker Year One vs. Three Jokers[]

Revelations from Joker Year One would seem to hard indicate that Geoff Johns' Three Jokers book is definitely out of continuity, providing a completely seperate and mutually exclusive origin for the Three Jokers statement in Darkseid War. Ømn1 (talk) 12:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Batman clearly states that Red Mask, like in other realities where he resurrected the Jokers, "caused" the creation of the Three Jokers. Joker himself stated in Batman 135 that the Three Jokers exist. Nothing from Batman: Three Jokers also causes continuity errors as the other two Joker should be dead in the present and the existence of Jeannie and the Joker's son was confirmed in Flashpoint Beyond. --Cmanigold 13:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Flashpoint Beyond only definitively says that Jeannie and son exist in the Flashpoint timeline, not the main universe. Just because Geoff Johns wants to go on a "Joker needs a definitive backstory" crusade doesn't mean he's succeeded in changing that, especially given how much actual Batman writers have consistently worked against that nonsense.Kpengie (Message Wall) 18:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

This week's issue establishes that the three jokers are entirely within Joker's mind- three separate personas created as a combination of Red Mask's meddling and "refined" by Daniel Captio. Ømn1 (talk) 14:04, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Nothing is confirmed in the story so let's see how it unfolds. After this storyline is over, we'll know what is part of the continuity and what is not. --Cmanigold 14:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The storyline is now over, and seems to conclusively say that the "there are three" only ever referred to the Joker's personas within his own mind. Prior to that, whenever the subject of "three Jokers" was mentioned, there was an editor's note referring to, notably, the Justice League issue when Batman was told of that on the Mobius Chair, with no reference whatsoever to the Three Jokers miniseries, implying that Bat-Editorial doesn't regard that miniseries as canon at all. I'm in favor of regarding Three Jokers (and by extension its epilogue in "Joker: The World") as non-canon in light of all of this information. Kpengie (Message Wall) 18:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)