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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Beeblebrox Beebletalks 22:48, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dmitry G. Gorin

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Dmitry G. Gorin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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It looks like he was involved in a bunch of notable court cases as a deputy DA but none of the refs are about him as an individual, it's all about the cases. The only exceptions are personal bios and this interview about his practice. BuySomeApples (talk) 05:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just a lawyer with some celebrity cases. My vote to delete is unchanged. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:17, 6 February 2025 (UTC).[reply]
  • Keep: The article demonstrates Dmitry G. Gorin's notability through his extensive legal career, including high-profile cases, academic roles at UCLA and Pepperdine University, and public impact in the legal field. His involvement in cases with significant media coverage and his contributions as an educator meet Wikipedia's general notability guidelines and warrant retention of the article. Thecoolfactfinder (talk) 09:00, 25 January 2025 (UTC) — username (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
    Just being involved in high profile cases and having positions at universities is not enough to make him automatically notable. He has to also meet either WP:GNG or WP:NPROF, and I don't really see anything in the article that demonstrates that. BuySomeApples (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. At first glance, I was inclined to agree with the nominator. However, after looking more closely, it’s clear this isn’t just any average lawyer we’re talking about - on the opposite. I also disagree with calling it “just another promo page” because every case is backed by independent sources, and the article itself is relatively well-written compared to similar lawyer pages on Wikipedia. Anyways, here is a breakdown of what I found:
    • 1) Senior Deputy District Attorney Experience and Lecturer at UCLA - the individual served as a Senior Deputy District Attorney in Los Angeles County for many years—one of the largest districts in the United States. This role indicates they managed high-profile public cases over an extended period. He has also been a lecturer at UCLA, teaching two law courses since 2003 (as noted on the UCLA website).
  • 2) Notable Cases - Lawyers can establish notability through the cases they handle. The “Notable cases” section of Gorin includes several high-profile matters, a few of them with their own Wikipedia pages. This list is already significant and it is not even complete.

For instance, the attorney recently defended a Los Angeles Deputy Mayor, as reported here but doesn't appear on his Wikipedia page:

Moreover, there’s substantial, ongoing coverage of this lawyer’s activities across the internet: https://www.google.com/search?num=10&client=opera&hs=yp4&sca_esv=2e9d584eca4b7171&sxsrf=ADLYWIJkODkpzSutiQ9Fstquqdk8FeYYWQ:1737252893598&q=Dmitry+Gorin+lawyer&tbm=nws&source=lnms&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3JzWreY9LW7LdGrLDAFqYDH2Z7s7jqgHIAW8PVnwe_sR_e-RCOLF8PNV6cgrvTe9W1QlY3sOMCnrD6DpPmucUF3Q4DWCnbUQ16OCFEw0bA3f-zorCYPCwItkuWVcknbOv4-nN1bzai1VYTk7zJThGO9aVJKR1TUIesAdeoQ7gAi3QfFsX3Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicou6s24CLAxUcJzQIHRecNVsQ0pQJegQIDhAB&biw=1226&bih=552&dpr=1.5

The best sources on his page are from the Daily Journal and UCLA (both appear to be independent with in-depth coverage), but I doubt the editor who created the page has fully captured the breadth of available information or conducted thorough research.

  • 3) Professional Directories - Several nationwide lawyer directories — independent to the best of my industry knowledge — rank him among the top attorneys in the country:

https://www.bestlawyers.com/lawyers/dmitry-gorin/157188/ https://profiles.superlawyers.com/california/los-angeles/lawyer/dmitry-gorin/29d97483-1d6e-4a02-b50d-9a4a91ac68e1.html

My point is that this individual is certainly not a “run-of-the-mill” lawyer; they have played a significant public role, handled numerous notable cases, and also teach at a prominent university (UCLA). 50.39.138.50 (talk) 03:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

He shows up in a lot of search results and was involved in notable court cases, but neither of those things make him individually notable. Being senior deputy DA is also not a position that makes a person automatically notable. You need to find RSes that are about him and don't just briefly mention or quote him. BuySomeApples (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • @BuySomeApples, UCLA source and the Daily Journal article both provide in-depth, independent, and reliable coverage, which meets the basic notability requirement of two strong sources. Considering his multiple notable cases (some of them with their own Wikipedia pages) and his public service as a District Attorney for Los Angeles County, I view this attorney as clearly notable.50.39.138.50 (talk) 05:38, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No, the UCLA source is not independent as he has worked there. JoelleJay (talk) 19:03, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t agree. UCLA is one of the most respected academic institutions in the United States, with stringent standards for verification and accountability. Nothing on that page appeared promotional or unsubstantiated by other sources. I stand by my opinion unless you can show evidence that UCLA has published promotional material about its lecturers and provide a few examples.--50.39.138.50 (talk) 20:34, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    You are conflating reliability with independence. There is well-established consensus that content from an employer about its employees is never independent. This is stated in WP:N: "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it., NPROF: non-independent sources, such as official institutional and professional sources, and NBIO: Thus, entries in biographical dictionaries that accept self-nominations (such as the Marquis Who's Who) do not contribute toward notability, nor do web pages about an organization's own staff or members. There is no scenario where an employer doesn't count as being "affiliated" with an employee. JoelleJay (talk) 01:19, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    How about this policy on Wikipedia:
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules
  • WP:BUREAUCRACY
  • WP:5P5
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law

Wikipedia has never strictly adhered to rigid rules without exceptions. Common sense often takes precedence over rigid rule-following, and each situation should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Specifically, we need in-depth coverage and verifiability to ensure that facts are presented neutrally and can be confirmed by reliable sources. This is exactly the case for UCLA's page. No one disputes that UCLA is a respected institution, and I have not encountered any information published by UCLA about their lecturers that cannot be verified. Regarding Mr. Gorin, I thoroughly checked his UCLA profile, and all the information—his education, role as an Attorney, and other basic biographical facts—can be verified through multiple sources.

I have shared my opinion on this matter and have no interest in further discussing it.--50.39.138.50 (talk) 02:09, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep In my opinion, the article meets WP:GNG. What coverage of a lawyer's activities do we need? To the sources already cited in the article, I can add this one: Gorin Selected to the 2021 Top 100 Super Lawyers in Southern California [1]. Moreover, in media outlets such as the NY Times [2], CBS [https//www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/los-angeles-deputy-mayor-brian-williams-fbi-search-bomb-threat-against-city-hall/], and TMZ [3], he provides commentary on high-profile cases he handled at the time. In articles from The Guardian [4] and the Daily Journal [5], he comments on other significant cases. It’s clear that articles about cases he worked on won’t necessarily detail his personal life. The notable cases are what defines the lawyer. Tau Corvi (talk) 13:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I get that most lawyers who work on high profile cases won't have a lot of articles written about them, the articles will usually focus on the cases. What that means is that most of those lawyers aren't notable, it doesn't mean that the standards for lawyers are lower than other figures. BuySomeApples (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. None of this person's roles contribute whatsoever to notability. Lawyers can only achieve notability through either significant coverage of them in independent secondary RS, or through academic impact as established by C1. Quotations from the subject never count toward GNG, and that is the entirety of the coverage linked above with the exception of the "best lawyers" press release, which obviously fails independence. JoelleJay (talk) 01:58, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:13, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep The article meets basic criteria for notability as per WP:GNG – we have two in-depth sources here, this, and this, with the former providing sufficient amount of information on the biography. In addition, with multiple sources covering the cases led by Gorin, it is safe to assume that the subject is notable. Baruzza (talk) 12:55, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The UCLA source is obviously not independent. The Daily Journal one looks good if it's truly independent (it reads like a paid-for advertorial, and the site offers ways to "submit your news"), but even so we need multiple sources of IRS SIGCOV to meet GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 23:41, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Based on the reviewed sources, the page meets general notability criteria. Subject's decades-long public role as a District Attorney in Los Angeles County and the notable cases he has overseen confirm his significance. Silvymaro (talk) 20:31, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Silvymaro, which reviewed sources are independent, secondary, and SIGCOV? JoelleJay (talk) 04:21, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Benison (Beni · talk) 07:01, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The point of requiring independence has nothing to do with reliability. Independent sources are required to demonstrate that people other than those affiliated with the subject have taken notice of the subject and written in detail on them. They are also required to ensure an NPOV article can be written, as connected sources will have a clear bias. No matter how extensive and reliable its coverage, a non-independent source can never be used to meet GNG.
If you're going to claim IAR now, it's up to you to show how a BLP based substantially around what the subject's employer has to say is so beneficial to the encyclopedia that we should ignore WP:N and WP:NPOV. JoelleJay (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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