Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Symbolic Manipulation Program

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep and move to SMP (computer algebra system). There is a consensus that the subject is notable based on coverage in independent sources and that the article should be moved to the new title as its common name. (non-admin closure) — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:32, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Symbolic Manipulation Program

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(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google Scholar citations to SMP paper -- 33 results)

(Find sources:Google Book search with additional terms >50 mentions of SMP)

No independent sourcing is present in the article. My WP:BEFORE searches indicate that there is one independent source available [1], but it's not clear to me that it's a WP:RS and it has limited content of encyclopedic value. The page has also been subject to promotional editing by presumably paid editors (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Badtoothfairy). My prod was reverted with the edit summary "Certainly notable as predecessor to Mathematica"; however, "being a predecessor to something notable" is not part of WP:GNG or any other notability guideline. Since the whole article is only one paragraph long (plus a bit of pointless Wolfram name-checking added by socks), I would be happy if this discussion ended either with the article being deleted or being merged into the article Mathematica. JBL (talk) 15:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mathematics-related deletion discussions. JBL (talk) 15:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. JBL (talk) 15:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ per the nomination and the fact that it's basically squatting on a title that could refer to computer algebra software more broadly. For example, one of the first Google hits is a paper that mentions translating these problems into a form suitable for symbolic manipulation programs. Another is a technical abstract that refers to The potential role of symbolic manipulation programs. Yet another is a paper whose title refers to REDUCE as a symbolic manipulation program. XOR'easter (talk) 17:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and rename to SMP (computer algebra system), as suggested below. Seems to be a WP:HEYMANN example now. XOR'easter (talk) 22:02, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Find sources Thanks for recognizing the improvements to the article. But I suspect that one reason you originally suggested deleting it was an over-reliance on the automatic "Find sources" links, which are pretty much useless in this case, for two reasons: 1) symbolic, manipulation, and program are pretty common generic words for the topic of computer algebra; 2) the most common name for the system was SMP, not Symbolic Manipulation Program (that is I guess my fault -- I chose that title when I created the article because SMP by itself has too many meanings).

I wonder if there's a way we can improve the "find sources" links in cases like this. I added a few links under the deletion banner, but that's pretty ugly and probably not kosher. Ideas? --Macrakis (talk) 17:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's always possible to add extra "find sources" links to the AfD. I've done that a few times in similar circumstances in the past, like when a person was known by other names than the article title, and it seems appropriate here as well. Perhaps three instances of {{Find sources AFD}} will be better than one. XOR'easter (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the pointer! --Macrakis (talk) 20:28, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP A quick literature search finds large numbers of independent sources, both on Google Scholar and the Internet Archive's book search. It is mostly called by its short name SMP, which means that you need to search with other related terms (e.g. Macsyma or "symbolic algebra") to find it. SMP was an important system in the 1980s, as shown by the large number of sources in mathematics teaching etc. as well as sources on computer algebra technology. It is typically mentioned along with other major systems of the time, namely Macsyma, Maple, Scratchpad, etc. I have added a couple of sources showing this.

Though it was superseded by Mathematica, it was not actually an early version of Mathematica, so does not belong in the Mathematica article. The language in the current article saying "SMP was essentially Version Zero of the more ambitious Mathematica system." is not quite right. Yes, Wolfram learned a lot from SMP in developing Mathematica, but it was not literally version zero of Mathematica.

Documenting the history of computer science is as important as documenting currently available software. It is a form of Wikipedia:Presentism to treat past achievements as first drafts of later developments.

It seems unlikely that anyone is being paid to edit a page about a system that was obsolete 25+ years ago. But even if they are, that is not relevant to the notability of this page.

By the way, I have never had anything to do with SMP. On the other hand, I worked on Macsyma, which was a competitor of SMP. I am surprised that whatever sources you're depending on for the history of symbolic algebra systems don't mention SMP. --Macrakis (talk) 17:38, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously you are not a paid editor! But User:Floridada is. --JBL (talk) 17:52, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Floridada's only contribution to this article seems to me to be useful and constructive, and it's just an added reference! I don't know anything about their behavior in general. But in any case, even if Floridada is paid, and even if their contribution had been unconstructive, that says nothing at all about the value and notability of the article. --Macrakis (talk) 17:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Their behavior in general consisted of spamming references to Wolfram's writings (published and not) across many Wikipedia articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not defending their behavior. Just saying that it is irrelevant to the notability of this article. --Macrakis (talk) 21:01, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Re the name, it would probably make sense to move it to SMP (symbolic algebra system), since SMP is its common name. But it's not fair to say that it's "squatting" on the page. Symbolic Manipulation Program is in fact its name. --Macrakis (talk) 17:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS I would be surprised to find any book or article comparing computer algebra systems in the relevant period (roughly 1982-1990) that doesn't mention SMP. --Macrakis (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I didn't find so many secondary sources, but there are some; it does seem to have been notable during its time. I agree with User:Macrakis that something like SMP (symbolic algebra system) would be a better title. Ebony Jackson (talk) 21:30, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A simple citation search of the basic paper about SMP finds 33 results.

This Google Book search [2] finds well over 50 mentions of SMP along with Macsyma and Scratchpad (a convenient way to restrict to relevant results).

How many secondary sources do we need? --Macrakis (talk) 22:46, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and rename to SMP (computer algebra system). I'm seeing a fair bit of coverage as a significant predecessor to Mathematica. It is more difficult to find online sources for something of this age, and we should take that into account. (For example, it looks like a 1989 article in the Economist mentions it, although I could only find a sketchy Google books reference to it [3]) I agree that the article should be renamed. The name should be similar to other articles on related subjects, such as Macaulay computer algebra system and GAP (computer algebra system). Russ Woodroofe (talk) 12:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.