Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A236 highway (Nigeria)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A236 highway (Nigeria)

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The combination of all of the following I believe is grounds for deletion. The information on the article seems to be, while probably true, unverifiable and likely original research. There would be notability if the topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. As it stands, the article about the A236 highway does not showcase such significant coverage. A geographical feature would be considered notable if it's covered extensively in reliable sources beyond just maps. The A236 does not fulfill this criterion as it only provides the basic route information (and there is no other available info to add from other websites); perhaps a numbered roadway would be acceptable if it could be described beyond the route itself. (E.g., historical, social, or cultural significance.) However, the article on the A236 highway does not offer any information beyond the basic route. This road has not been the subject of multiple published secondary sources that provide significant coverage. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, is there a way to mass-nominate similar articles? There are other (not all, but some) highway articles created by the same user that merely connect two other (also usually un-notable) highways and are not notable or discussed anywhere outside of maps or Wikipedia mirror sites. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's sit back and relax and start with discussing the merits of one article. You seem in a rush to mass-nominate, which often leads to WP:TRAINWRECK. V C 23:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, sorry. I thought it would be obvious, but I see now that that isn't the case. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:GEOROAD (national highway), and obvious systemic bias. --Rs chen 7754 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The categorization of a highway as a 'national' one should not solely be based on the fact that it is located within a nation's borders. A 'national highway' typically refers to a road network maintained by the national government (indeed, A236 is a federally built-road within Kaduna State) and that has strategic importance to the country's economy/defense/mobility. The A236 highway only connects two other roads and does not have any national significance. The road is not mentioned in works discussing Nigeria's national highways, such as here or here. It is only mentioned in lists which also contain F-class roads. F-class roads, such as F127 or F252, are also federal roads, but they are not notable like A236 and thus do not have articles. Indeed, neither F-class roads nor A236 exist on Yoruba Wikipedia, in contrast to, say, A1. In the best case, auto-generated content, blogs, maps, or Wikipedia mirrors do not establish notability. For example, Trongsa - Gelephu (PNH4), a primary national highway of Bhutan, does not have an article (along with many others) despite being a national highway. Do you have a reliable source that establishes A236 as a notable national highway? Chamaemelum (talk) 23:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The categorization of a highway as a 'national' one should not solely be based on the fact that it is located within a nation's borders. - a straw man, where is anybody saying that?

I will point out that [1] (which is the actual law of Nigeria) says that it is a national highway. Thus, GEOROAD is applicable. Rs chen 7754 23:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And just because nobody has bothered to make an article for Bhutan is a red herring. --Rs chen 7754 23:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly: the law of Nigeria lists an innumerable amount of national highways, including the F-class highways. That does not make it notable. WP:GEOROAD says that such roads are typically notable, which is true. That is describing an observation, not a rule: globally, if a road is a national road, it is likely also notable. It does not claim that the fact that a road is national makes it notable. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please justify why you do not think that this highway is the "typical" highway. Because it is in an underdeveloped part of the world? Rs chen 7754 23:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of couse not. It isn't notable because it is not indicated as notable in any source, only serves to connect other highways, and for the same reasons the F-class national highways are not notable. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And you are reading stuff into the policy that isn't there. By your PROD actions you are claiming that 33% of the Nigeria national highway articles are not notable. That seems to go against the spirit of GEOROAD and NEXIST. Rs chen 7754 04:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right now, I'm only claiming that this article isn't notable. My PROD actions were due to looking at a specific user's rapidly created stub no-source articles and being unable to find notability for a minority of them. Chamaemelum (talk) 05:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Transportation and Nigeria. Shellwood (talk) 22:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per WP:GEOROAD “International road networks (such as the International E-road network), Interstate, national, state and provincial highways are typically notable.” and this is a national highway. Also, I agree with Rschen7754 that there is systemic bias on Wikipedia and that articles about subjects in lesser-developed countries and countries that don’t speak English are more scrutinized since there are fewer interested editors and sources are harder to find. Dough4872 22:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nigerians speak English, and it is the most common and the official language in Nigeria. However, because there is some non-English spoken, let's conduct a search on Nigerian Google:

Hausa: "Hanya A236"

Yoruba: "Ona A236"

Igbo: "Uzo A236"

These do not yield any source establishing the notability of, or relating to, the A236 highway. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But, Google Maps says that it is also the Kaduna-Jos Road. And there are plenty of hits when you search for that. --Rs chen 7754 23:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kaduna-Jos Road includes A11 and A2, and is not synonymous with A236. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even so, have you gone through those sources to say that they do not apply? Let me point out that A236 is the majority of that road. I will also point out that A236 has other names. Have you gone through all those names and potential sources using them? Rs chen 7754 23:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I have done an extensive search for alternative names and stretches of the road, especially considering the numbered system is not the commonly referred to name (in fact, most of those A### highway articles should have their names changed). Still, the onus would not be on me to do that. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is, WP:BEFORE. Rs chen 7754 23:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I found irrelevant sources, like a blog post that mentioned it in passing. Your link tells me that it is ok to proceed if I examine the sources and determine that they are insufficient, e.g., because they only contain passing mention of the topic. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A236 is the majority in length, but not in relevance. It is away from the city centers. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Something that would refer to a stretch of A236 (but still not synonymous) would instead be be Zaria City - Pambeguwa Chamaemelum (talk) 23:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:GEOROAD. Not sure why national roads in Nigeria would not be legitimate topics for WP entries. gidonb (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The argument is not against having articles for national roads in Nigeria or any other country. Notability should not be assumed just because a road is classified as a national highway. For the A236 highway, we could not find any sources indicating notability.

While it's true that WP:GEOROAD typically considers national highways as notable, it doesn't make it a concrete rule. As for A236, the only information available is about its basic route, with no further elaboration on its historical, social, or cultural significance. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you really believe that, then start a RFC to clarify the matter. Rs chen 7754 23:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, who is "we"? Rs chen 7754 23:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You and I and the article creator. I'm assuming you've also searched in some capacity about the road, and if you or the article creator had found something, it would be in the article. This is besides the point though. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, 1/3 of the Nigerian road articles were PRODed. Rs chen 7754 23:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They were mass-created by a single user. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This creator did well. We absolutely need to carry geofeatures also in Africa. gidonb (talk) 01:39, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am very sympathetic to this. Naturally, English Wikipedia will be dominated predominantly by English-speakers who have access to the internet, meaning that a notable topic in (e.g.) Kyrgyzstan is less likely to be covered, so it can be good to give leniency to articles from places that may not speak English (not Nigeria) or may not have widespread access to the internet (Nigeria). While this is good, it doesn't mean that a truly non-notable feature should have its own article. For example, the F-series Nigerian national highways are not notable, and the Rantan Islamiyya Primary School is not notable. A236 highway falls under this same category of places with no even plausible relevance. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:18, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We are already forced to heavily "punish" African nations in terms of articles and through it exposure on Wikipedia because we cannot carry biographies or company entries without independent sources. Your radical approach, now also to delete geofeatures, when there are insufficient independent sources in Africa, instead of working with sources that are sufficient for data support, would to a large extent wipe Africa off the Wikipedia map. I sincerely hope nobody will buy into this! gidonb (talk) 18:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The key issue here is not about 'punishing' African nations by removing content: instead, it's about ensuring that the content present on the platform meets Wikipedia's standards for quality and verifiability. Indeed, we are introducing a low-quality bias by allowing non-notable articles devoid of possible meaningful content to remain. This means that the Africa side of Wikipedia will be more bloated and lower quality than other areas precisely due to this trend to keep all possible articles. Chamaemelum (talk) 19:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a radical approach. As a member of an Africa project and a contributor to many Africa articles, I prefer the prevailing, more balanced approach. It seems that about everyone else is with me on this. Which brings me to note that you should NEVER have WP:PRODded all these articles per PROD must only be used if no opposition to the deletion is expected. gidonb (talk) 22:52, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I expected absolutely no opposition. I thought it would be really obvious that they should be deleted. I didn't know about the 'road article preservation' communities when I made the PRODs, and I didn't see any possible objections when I did PROD. Chamaemelum (talk) 00:27, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of people at WP who care about Africa. Disregading WP:PROD is not the only problem with your actions here. The other one is WP:BLUDGEONING all over this page. gidonb (talk) 02:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely can see that criticism! Thank for pointing it out. Chamaemelum (talk) 04:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The above are false claims of automatic notability and should be discounted. While certain national highways are "typically notable", they are not exempt from requiring sources altogether. In unitary states, most highways would be national highways, but that doesn't mean they must have standalone articles with disregard to WP:V and WP:GNG. The claimed RFC above is not necessary – articles need sources and actual coverage, simple as that. Reywas92^Talk 03:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nigeria does have states, and also state highways (which are also notable according to GEOROAD). Remember that GEOROAD exists to help explain WP:NEXIST (which would include newspaper archives not available online). Rs chen 7754 03:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I nominated this article only after extensively checking for possible sources, and have since done more extensive searching and have not found nothing establishing notability. The potential for offline newspaper archives could be used to justify the inclusion of any article. Reading your link says that once an article's notability has been challenged, merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially if time passes and actual proof does not surface. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of sources here [2] [3][4] And I haven't even touched TWL or Newsbank yet. --Rs chen 7754 06:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2: Kaduna-Pambeguwa-Jos road is not the A236 highway. Most of that is A11.

3: Kano-Zaria road is A2. The other roads mentioned in passing in that article are also not A236.

4: Again, Kaduna-Pambeguwa-Jos road is not A236.

Maybe we should delete some of the A-series roads and we can replace them with your alternate roads such as Kaduna-Pambeguwa-Jos, which at least would have a non-map source for them. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:31, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can easily find sources talking about stretches of the road, or referring to parts of the road by cities. You should search for the cities that connect the road. I found sources more relevant to A236 than the three above. If you believe these merit the road's inclusion, then let us reroute the A-series roads to the common name most closely resembling the road (this would cut off chunks and may add segments of various parts of almost all the legally-defined roads), and also we should add all the F-series roads. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GEOROAD and all above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep—WP:GEOROAD offers the starting point into our inquiry here. This is a national highway, designated by the appropriate highway authority in Nigeria. As we have found over 15 or so years, such designations are going to be notable. Arguments about different classifications (F-series roads) are inapplicable to this discussion and off-topic. The nominator seems to be in a rush to judgement and discounting various sources found under alternative names, indicating that a proper WP:BEFORE inquiry was not conducted. Sources have been found, thus this article should be kept. Imzadi 1979 → 17:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While legally designated, it is not notable and no one in Nigeria refers to highways with the legal name. We should instead delete this article and make articles on the relevant stretches of the highways, which often combine multiple segments of different legal highways, with common names. In fact, in the above text, no source has been given about the article. The note about the F-series roads is to say "I'd imagine it's obvious that all the F-series should not be included, and there is no meaningful difference between the F-series articles and the A-series, therefore it would also be logical to conclude that being an A-series road should not automatically warrant inclusion." Chamaemelum (talk) 19:31, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GEOROAD - Obvious notable highway. –Davey2010^Talk 20:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GEOROAD. This highway is a national highway that connects two cities of 500,000+ population. The arguments about how to name the articles are irrelevant to this discussion and should be discussed separately after this discussion concludes. V C 17:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.