User talk:Griceylipper

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Hello, Griceylipper,

Thanks for creating Battle of Ronas Voe! I edit here too, under the username FULBERT and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:-

I am currently reviewing this article Griceylipper, and thanks for your patience in this process.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|FULBERT}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

FULBERT (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@FULBERT: Hello! Thanks for taking the time to review the article, I hope it is up to Wikipedia's high standards.

I'm a pretty new editor, and am pretty clueless about how this process works - once the article has been reviewed, where does the list of issues appear - here on my talk page? Or on the article's talk page? Or somewhere else? Or, am I being really stupid and has the article already been reviewed? Let me know once the review has been done - if it hasn't already! Thanks! Griceylipper (talk) 18:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I finished the article review Griceylipper, and think the article is overall in good condition. Thanks for creating it. --- FULBERT (talk) 02:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Griceylipper. I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions, including your edits to Noss. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page, consult Wikipedia:Questions, or place {{help me}} on your talk page and ask your question there.

Again, welcome! Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:57, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably not aware of this change, but Days of the Year pages are no longer exempt from WP:V and direct sources are required for additions. For details see the content guideline, the WikiProject Days of the Year style guide or the edit notice on any DOY page. Please do not add new additions to these pages without direct sources as the burden to provide them is on the editor who adds or restores material to these pages. Thank you. Toddst1 (talk) 22:45, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was not aware of this - I saw the rest of the items without citations and made a silly assumption. Have gone back and reinstated complete with a citation. Hope this is alright now - if not, let me know. Griceylipper (talk) 22:57, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think we need an article on the mainland "Noss"? Maybe that's why the OS uses the name "Isle of Noss" for the island. There is a page on it here but with little info on it. As you can see there is Stack o' da Noup which is like a nose to so probably has the same etymology. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:47, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Crouch, Swale: I suppose an article could be written, but I honestly don't know anything about the place, past what Jakobsen says about the etymology of Noss (which is exactly the same origin as Noss as I added in the "Isle of Noss" article), and then Noup:

"The names Noop and Neep are both applied to a peak shaped headland. They are derived from O.N. (g)núp-r and (g)nípa, peak. Instances: "de Noop o' Noss," "de Neep" (North Nesting)."

I live at the north end of Shetland and am much more familiar with Northmavine. As for why it came to be "Isle of Noss", my humble opinion is that the folk writing the OS name-books were referencing other works on Shetland (almost entirely written by non-native authors), and those authors would have written things like "we took the trip across to the isle of Noss" in attempt to convey to their readers in a succinct manner that Noss is an island, despite the fact pretty much none of the locals would ever refer to it like that - everyone here knows it's an island (or, it would at least be pretty clear through context if the other Noss on the Mainland was being referred to) and thus it's just "Noss". It would be like insisting calling it "the Island of Great Britain" every time - that would get silly rather fast. I'm guessing the local folk consulted for the name-books were not fully aware of how prevalent and permanent these names would become over 100 years later! Griceylipper (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Its interesting to note that while Island of Great Britain does exist but with hardly any incoming links, Isle of Great Britain is a red link which indeed suggests its very uncommon to use these terms. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Your submission of Lang Ayre at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! DBigXrayᗙ 09:38, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Griceylipper! You created a thread called Dealing with broken Shetlopedia links at Wikipedia:Teahouse, but it has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please create a new thread. Archival by Lowercase sigmabot III, notification delivery by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} (ban this bot) or {{nobots}} (ban all bots) on your user talk page. Muninnbot (talk) 19:01, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Your submission of The Drongs at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 19:41, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I noted your various recent changes to the article on Shetland and sympathise with much of what you say but am not convinced that usages like 'in Foula' will find favour with most readers. It's an issue that I've wondered about for years - whilst 'in Great Britain' sounds right, 'in Lundy' does not - both are the names of islands but one example is substantially bigger than the other. There are discussions at https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/8835/in-at-or-on-an-island and at https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/in-the-island-or-on-the-island.458470/ which make some observations on the subject, suggesting that either of the prepositions might be correct according to the particular circumstance - political entity (possibly in quite a loose sense) versus geographical feature. best wishes Geopersona (talk) 06:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Geopersona I have previously discussed this here - I realise there is not a huge amount of participation to this discussion, however as it stands the current consensus in terms of Scottish Islands seems to be that "in" should be used for inhabited (or previously inhabited islands) and "on" for uninhabited (or currently uninhabited) islands. This is also sympathetic to the way Shetlanders (myself included) talk about the islands, and I can say from personal experience that the term "on" is widely disliked here. "In Foula" is a perfectly normal and uncontroversial way of describing it here. As such "in Lundy" sounds totally normal to me too, as an islander.

If that discussion isn't satisfactory enough, I would be more than willing to contribute to a larger scale RFC on the topic, should one be proposed. Alternatively, would there be a case for an extension of WP:COFAQ#ENGLISH to allow the grammar used in Shetland to apply to Shetland articles? Griceylipper (talk) 12:09, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for drawing my attention to that discussion. It makes perfect sense that islanders might use different language as their relationship with the place will differ from that of visitors, and perhaps carry over to other islands too. I'll return to this conversation in due course. thanks Geopersona (talk) 07:23, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've just come across this discussion via Foula, where some (not necessarily all) of the recent edits by Griceylipper seem to me (born "on" the Wirral peninsula but having visited Foula and other parts of Shetland) to have resulted in an extremely odd form of words. Is this "on"/"in" distinction simply an issue of use in Shetland - in which case we should, in my view, default to more widely used patterns of WP:BRITENG? I would argue that, while you would clearly live "in" a settlement like Scalloway, you would live "on" rather than "in" Foula. You might live "in" Ham, but "on" Foula - which is an inhabited island but not, itself, a settlement. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I learnt some years ago that inhabitants of Barra refer to their being 'in Barra', so no, it's not the only example. Geopersona (talk) 18:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle Apologies for the late reply - no, it's not just Shetland, I'm pretty sure Orkney at least also uses the word "in" referring to smaller islands, as long as they are populated. I would not be surprised if other islands also do this. The word "on" is generally considered disrespectful to the islanders in that it implies an inherit unimportance, as if you're about to be washed "off" by the sea any minute. "In" is a respectful term. Griceylipper (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see a source for the claim that "the word 'on' is generally considered disrespectful to the islanders...". Even if true, I'm not convinced that local sensibilities trump wider comprehensibility to readers. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:22, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle I know that this was a news item on BBC Radio Orkney as it was brought up in a Orkney Islands Council meeting that the term "on island" should be banned from council proceedings. I can't for the life of me find this at the moment, but I am 100% certain that this was an actual news item and I seem to remember it being discussed sometime between 2015-2017. As an islander myself I have to disagree that islanders preferences on how they are referred should be ignored, especially considering the practically identical usage compared to "in Great Britain", which is a commonly used and unquestioned way of putting it. Griceylipper (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Great Britain" is a vastly larger island (over 16,000 times larger than Foula, for example), and is also a constitutional entity comprising three countries - so is not really a comparable case in any way. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:59, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle OK, how about this for an example - Tenerife. If I Ctrl-F for "on Tenerife" in its article here on Wikipedia I get 8 valid results. If I Ctrl-F for "in Tenerife" I get 23 valid results in the article text. There are even articles like Sport in Tenerife that use "in" in the title. Now, in my mind Tenerife is a perfectly good example of an island more comparable to Shetland's islands. It's not its own country, and it size wise, while bigger than any individual island in Shetland, it is in the same ballpark. Don't you think this shows that "in" is perfectly natural language to use for an island of this sort of size? Griceylipper (talk) 23:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that Tenerife is at that intermediate level of size where either "in" or "on" would be acceptable. But we are talking about much smaller islands like Foula. Would you say "in Mainland", by the way? Or "on Mainland", or "on the Mainland"? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:31, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In relation to the question of "...would there be a case for an extension of WP:COFAQ#ENGLISH to allow the grammar used in Shetland to apply to Shetland articles?", my answer would be certainly not. The guidance relates to national forms of English - British, American, New Zealand, etc etc - and Shetland is not a nation. Allowing local articles to be written in local forms of English would reduce their legibility to a global readership. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GhmyrtleI am not proposing that articles be written in Shetland dialect or anything like that - the word "in" is used an a way so similar to English in terms of larger islands (e.g. in Great Britain) that I am not convinced that it makes the article illegible in any way. It can surely be no worse that readers having to know that "colour" and "color" mean the same thing - which is expected of global readers. Griceylipper (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But "colour" and "color" are well-known and well-documented national spelling variants, which is not the same thing. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:22, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle Fair enough, it is more well-known - however, you can't deny that the usage of "in" to refer to being upon an island is not already in use in English, in terms of "in Great Britain". Griceylipper (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle is right to say that the language used in Wikipedia should be broadly accessible to the widest audience, and that does include making use of well-established national variants, not least in spelling. However some of the uses of 'in' that we've discussed would not fit that pattern. Now I'd imagine that none of us wish to be disrespectful to inhabitants of any island, near or far - might we therefore recognise the use of the word 'in' by islanders within relevant articles by a referenced piece of text to it, if we can locate something suitable? After all it is 'a thing'; it is an aspect of island culture worthy of note. That would bring awareness of the useage to a wider audience (and indeed incidentally promote respect for linguistic variety) without making the text read oddly for the great majority of the readership. If I didn't know already, I would want as a potential visitor, to know about it and make adjustments in my own language whilst 'in island'. (For the record, I live in Great Britain (a political/administrative entity) on the British mainland (a geographical entity)) cheers Geopersona (talk) 07:19, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Geopersona So, by that do you mean the articles could continue to use "in" as I have altered them to do, just with some sort of template or similar with a reference that points out this linguistic difference? Or, do you mean make the articles use "on", but describe this as disliked in these places? If you mean the latter, this would apply to the articles of at least every inhabited island in Orkney and Shetland - that's quite a lot of explaining to do for a piece of information that is while not terribly notable about any individual island, is important to the reference of them all. I fear that stating this explicitly on every page would get rather repetitive to a reader browsing through pages of each island consecutively.

And for the record, the usage of "island" as in "on island" or "in island" is also disapproved of! See the new thread below. Griceylipper (talk) 20:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Geopersona. On a related point of local usage, we have over 100 articles that refer to "the Shetlands". My understanding is that that is incorrect. Should they all be changed to "Shetland"? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:05, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle Yes, with the exception that any official name of something, e.g. Admiral Commanding, Orkneys and Shetlands, Shetlands Larsen; or the usage of "the Shetlands" within quotes should probably be kept as they are, despite being incorrect. All other usages ought to be changed to any of the following acceptable terms - "Shetland", "Shetland Isles", "Shetland Islands", "the Shetland Isles", "the Shetland Islands". The one that is most commonly used here is just "Shetland". Griceylipper (talk) 20:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Geopersona & Ghmyrtle I emailed BBC Radio Orkney and I got a reply back from one of the reporters, Dave Gray, who sent me an audio file and some comments that I've put up on my website. If this is not quite enough evidence, I'd be happy to talk to BBC Radio Shetland and the Shetland Times and see if they have any similar house rules about "in" vs "on". Griceylipper (talk) 20:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry - I'm not about to start using 'in-' or 'off-island' in everyday speech, just playing with the language - I have my own language bugbears which, despite pleas on my part to various parties including the BBC, are becoming more widespread - people talk of visiting 'the Peaks' or 'the Brecons' when they mean the Peak District or the Brecon Beacons, and there's 'walking the Blacks' when they mean walking in (on?) the Black Mountains -aargh!. For heavens sake what are 'the Brecons'!? The observation re 'the Shetlands' is equally applicable to 'the Orkneys' - both are to be deprecated in favour of 'Shetland' and 'Orkney' - doubtless this applies to other island groups too. Returning to the mention of 'in' v 'on' - that is certainly something one would want to see at Shetland and at Orkney in the first instance - though where would you put it - in language or etymology or culture? In respect of the difficulties you mention, it would be useful to draw others into the discussion beside the three of us. best wishesGeopersona (talk) 08:09, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't think we have a reliable source for this "in"/"on" point. The email and transcript provided here address a different point ("off-island" and "on-island"), made by a single councillor. Even if we get a reliable source supporting Griceylipper's point, that still does not mean we should accommodate it in a global encyclopedia if it is likely to cause confusion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:32, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To try and progress this and secure further guidance, I've now raised the question at WT:MOS. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:57, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle Thanks, I will chime in over there. Griceylipper (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass (talk) 00:01, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, hope you can contribute to this. I did a lot of work on Whalsay a few years back, glad to see you've followed my example with the detailed nav box! Keep up the good work!♦ Dr. Blofeld 03:48, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dr. Blofeld, I had noticed that Whalsay has a remarkably comprehensive coverage compared to the rest of Shetland, which is a delight to see! I'm hoping to concentrate on articles related to Northmavine for the moment and expand from there. I'm still learning the ropes here on Wikipedia but am loving it so far.

I would certainly be interested in contributing to The 10,000 Challenge - please forgive my ignorance though, I have a couple of questions:

1. Is the primary focus on places (geography, buildings, etc.) or is it for any articles related to UK/Ireland (for example, biographies)?

2. Would some geographical articles I have created earlier this year be eligible to add to the list now, or are you looking for more current entries?

And thanks for your interest in the Lang Ayre article! Griceylipper (talk) 22:17, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Any article on the UK done this year! Yeah we should have that sort of local coverage for everywhere. Glad to see somebody like you on here! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass (talk) 00:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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		A Shetland Barnstar
		I am not very active these days but I have been taking a quick tour and hope you will keep up the good work. Ben MacDui 16:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC) [reply]

A thousand apologies for the month-long wait for my reply to this conversation about when it is and isn't OK to go into detail about what equipment someone needs to take with them in an article about that objective. (I rarely seem to get access to a keyboard these days, and when I do, Wikipedia draws me into other complex issues. So forgive my rudeness, please, and especially as an unintended consequence of typing any reply is that it comes over terse or intolrant. That's not absolutely my intention in what follows, and I appreciate your question...)

You asked: "...however if you'll humour me for an enquiry of my own - forgetting the difference between paper/electronic devices for the moment, is the point that a walker should take a map/compass at all considered encyclopaedic? Perhaps this statement would also be considered too close to the content of a guidebook, and should be removed entirely? I personally am finding it difficult to discern where the line should be drawn. I am not trying to be deliberately contrarian here, I just want what's best for the article and Wikipedia as a whole - which I am sure is also your aim."

It's a really good question. The answer in my own head is really obvious...but putting it into words and policies isn't so easy. You are spot on about 'guidebooks'. The best Wikipedia guidance is found at WP:NOTMANUAL, which, amongst other things, says: While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places and things, an article should not read like a "how-to" style ...manual.... So, we wouldn't expect an article about a car to state that it's imperative to know how to drive first, or to fill up with petrol. Nor would I expect to see information on what equipment is needed to climb Old Man of Hoy or the Matterhorn. There always Rock-climbing equipment I could visit, or Hiking equipment for more general walking, but even then I would not expect an editor to add a link to those equipment pages, nor indeed put it in the 'See also' section. I totally agree that people need to undertake activities with the right equipment and attitude, but it's not for the encyclopaedia to state specifically the exact type of equipment they need, unless it's pretty unusual and part of the secondary sources used to write about that topic. Anything else is Original Research of WP:SYNTH. Published walking guidebooks always have sections on 'equipment to take' etc, as well as safety disclaimers. It's not at all necessary to repeat that general advice when writing about places included in that guidebook. I don't think my experience as a mountaineer is influencing my response to you - it would be just the same on any other topic where too much practical and general advice is not germane to the subject.

Thus for Lang Ayre and the DYK hook you first proposed, I think it is unusual for a guidebook to say that you might feel it appropriate to take a map and compass to get to a beach if you want to avoid getting lost. What bothered me was your addition of safety advice that a real physical map should be taken, and moreso that it had the chance of appearing on the main page. Yes, GPS batteries go flat and so forth, but that's much more you wanting to offer helpful personal advice (a la guidebook) than offering a factual encyclopaedic entry about a topic. And yes, people get lost and die in all sorts of surprising places in the world, but that's not a rationale for including safety or other sensible advice in an encyclopaedia about each of those places. I could offer literally hundreds of similar examples where sensible advice is useful to a person visiting a place, or performing an activity, but where including that advice in an encyclopaedia would be totally wrong. (Here's a classic example of where someone has gone a little too far in wanting to highlight safety concerns. The route to the mountain hut in question indeed sees many deaths and injuries each year, so safety issues are hugely relevant to the article, but not in the way that was done.)

Let me know if my reply makes sense, or if you're still unsure of what approach to take. You can always drop me a line on my talk page, or ask at the Teahouse if you want input on any editing you've done. In return, some free family accommodation on Shetland for a week or two would be welcome remuneration!!! I promise I'd bring an OS map, too. All the best, Nick Moyes (talk) 10:54, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nick Moyes, I hope you enjoyed your holiday, and no worries about the late reply, we all have busy lives!

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply - we're definitely on the same page now. I've been regularly editing here on Wikipedia since about March this year but I'm still learning the ropes (and it feels like I never will stop!) OK, one more quick question, if I may: so basic safety information (unless unusual or unexpected, as in this case) is not considered encyclopedic, but would the fact that someone has been in the news having nearly died on Ronas Hill (such as in this story I mentioned before) be considered encyclopedic? My guess is that it would, however I would appreciate your insight on this. If so, it might be worth adding a mention of this to the Ronas Hill article.

Hmm, I'm just about to buy a small 2 bedroom house for myself in the Central Mainland, so the accommodation might depend on how big the family is!! Seriously though, if you do want to come visit Shetland give me a shout and I can give you some travel tips - in particular, one of the most spectacular walks I know of is along the west coast of Ronas Voe, it's one of Shetland's well-kept secrets :) Griceylipper (talk) 12:26, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

An article you recently created, Island Medics, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 03:39, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Griceylipper -- Just back from a wikibreak to find lots of new Scottish island articles & DYKs from your pen -- excellent stuff! I maintain the Portal:Scottish islands for my sins, and if you are interested, it would be great if you could highlight your DYKs on its talk page so that I don't miss any, as I find they are sometimes not being picked up by the search terms I use. Any other help you can offer with the portal gratefully received! Cheers (from a fellow Scottish islander, albeit a sad Sassenach), Espresso Addict (talk) 07:29, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Espresso Addict, thanks for your kind words. For the moment I'm concentrating on articles to do with Shetland as they take my interest, and there's an ever-growing list of articles to write on my to do list for me to work on - right now I'm looking in to the highland clearances that took place in Tingon, so hopefully this article should be expanded quite a bit eventually. I think you've got all my DYKs so far, there is one coming up for my Johnnie Notions article (which I see you've already had a look at). I am a bit of a Luddite and so I've really just been slowly plodding away myself on random articles and adding the odd Wikiproject banner on the talk pages of some of my articles, but I haven't had much involvement within any of these projects or portals, but I'd be willing to have a look into this. And if you're ever looking for a native Shetlander for any purpose (such as if you need photographs of anywhere), let me know! Griceylipper (talk) 12:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry that the RFC didn't work how you wanted it but for Category:Villages on Mainland, Shetland if you want to ask for speedy renaming under WP:C2E I'll be fine with that, however since another editor (Yadsalohcin) has populated it (with Sullom) I'll ping them to see if the're OK to. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Crouch, Swale (talk) and Griceylipper, Sullom was intended to be helpful rather than any hindrance and I had no idea that there was anything going on with Category:Villages on Mainland, Shetland, so feel free to put it or re-categorise it wherever it's best, and meanwhile I promise to avoid the area until the dust settles or the actegories stabilise again... Regards, Yadsalohcin (talk) 20:13, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Yadsalohcin: I think you have misunderstood what I have said, I was asking if you object to renaming Category:Villages on Mainland, Shetland to Category:Villages in Mainland, Shetland. You didn't hinder anything, thanks for creating the missing article. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:25, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• That's alright, thanks for creating the RFC on my behalf Crouch, Swale - I suppose it's a bit difficult to get the islander perspective across when there's so few of us on here! Never mind, it's not the end of the world. I've added the category to the speedy rename list. And thanks @Yadsalohcin: for the Sullom article, while I'm reasonably local to the area I'm not too knowledgeable about it, however if I come across anything relevant to add to it in my slow building up of Shetland articles I will be sure to contribute to this article. Griceylipper (talk) 23:17, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Its now been moved. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:32, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. The Wikipedia:The Great Britain/Ireland Destubathon is planned for March 2020, a contest/editathon to eliminate as many stubs as possible from all 134 counties. Amazon vouchers/book prizes are planned for most articles destubbed from England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland and Northern Ireland and whoever destubs articles from the most counties out of the 134. Sign up on page if interested in participating, hope this will prove to be good fun and productive, we have over 44,000 stubs!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:06, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

With a bit of luck this will benefit those Shetland stubs too!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:06, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a great idea! I'm not sure how much I'll be able to contribute realistically (as I'm hoping to be moving into a new house around about then), but I've signed up and will see what I can do when the time comes around. Shetland certainly has plenty of stubs that could have work done on them! Griceylipper (talk) 21:36, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is an error in the |width= for Loch of Brow. It is supposed to be 1/9 or 19? MB 05:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi MB - it's supposed to be one ninth. Griceylipper (talk) 07:09, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded that. You know we could run a contest just for the Shetland in destubbing and creating missing articles and still last the month! There's so many potential articles missing still! I say give everything the Whalsay treatment!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:33, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dr. Blofeld - Thanks for the Eshaness article, I'll have a look at that. I hope you don't mind me altering some small bits here and there which benefit from some local knowledge!

While I've got your attention, the naming of the Esha Ness article is slightly problematic. There's a convention Shetland-wide for some place names where a land or sea feature has a split-up name (so the peninsula itself is "Esha Ness"), whereas the settlement in / near the same feature has a combined name ("Eshaness"). For example, a similar one nearby is Urafirth (village for which the school was to be closed in the Ollaberry article) - the "firth", being the inlet of the sea is called "Ura Firth". The thing is, while you can use the combined name to refer the feature and no one will bat an eyelid, you absolutely cannot refer to the settlement with the split up name or local folk start getting really annoyed. Now I've tried looking for a written source for this convention, but can find nothing on it - it's sort of a difficult thing to search for. In my opinion, in the vast majority of cases the combined name (in this case "Eshaness") would make more sense for the article title, and for most mentions throughout the article. Is this the sort of thing you'd need to source to change, or is it worth just being WP:BOLD and changing it? (By the way, no worries if you don't have time at the moment to reply - I appreciate you probably have a lot on your plate right now running the destubathon.)

I'd certainly be up for giving Shetland the "Whalsay treatment" as you put it! Many years ago there was a Shetland-specific wiki called Shetlopedia which was quite well fleshed out, however it wasn't sourced to the degree that Wikipedia is, and the website eventually went down and was lost entirely. It would be great to get a similar amount of coverage again here on Wikipedia. I'll need to see if I can recruit some more Shetlanders to help out - there might well be some folk looking for things to do with the Coronavirus disruptions at the moment. I have (so far) managed to convince one person to start editing - WhirlieWheeter, who has a number of articles in the works. I'm not much of one for the organisation of these sorts of things (I suspect you've been around the block here on Wikipedia slightly longer than me!) but in all seriousness, if you want to set something up I will happily contribute as much as I can! Griceylipper (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC) (P.S. the name - nothing to do with slippers! It's Shetland dialect for "piggish brute", or something to that effect :P)[reply]

Yes I noticed there was also a village with Eshaness as the name and the difference. Eshaness Peninsula is a possibility. I remember Shetlopedia, what a shame that fell through. I was thinking Griceylipper sounded like a fishing boat or something!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That video makes a huge difference to quality. Much better than a photograph. We ought to have videos of every settlement in the UK!♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, it was already on the Sumburgh Airport page so I just took it across. I have something else in the works for the A970, it'll probably take me a while to get the whole thing set up though (I could really do with a WYSIWYG GUI editor for the train / road maps, it would speed up the process immensely). As for more video, that might be an interesting project for when the weather improves. Griceylipper (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia UK offer grants up to £250. I'm sure if you wanted to film villages, geo features and roads in different parts of the Shetlands they'd cover your petrol costs for travelling about. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:10, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you making these changes? The older forms are still perfectly understood and were in use during the wars, so I'm being historically accurate. In fact the official titles of the local councils are the Shetland Islands Council and the Orkney Islands Council, so please stop and revert your changes.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sturmvogel 66 - the term "the Shetlands" is detested by Shetlanders (of which I am one). "Shetland" is fine. "The Shetland Islands" is fine. "The Shetland Isles" is also fine. "The Shetlands" is not. It implies that there are several individual islands called "Shetland", e.g. "East Shetland" and "West Shetland". None of the islands are named Shetland, that simply refers to the group of all of them. Compare with "The Falklands", primarily consisting of East Falkland and West Falkland - that's how it should be used. All my edits have removed only this term (where appropriate) to take this into account. Also, just because a term was used historically does not mean it is correct.

As evidence for hatred of this term, Ctrl-F for "the Shetlands" here or here or here or here or here. These are just a few, there are many more.

I have done this change Wikipedia wide as far as I can, excluding the following uses:

• Leif "Shetlands" Larsen
• Plural of any of the Shetland animal breeds
• Titles of works
• Quotes
• Admiral Commanding, Orkneys and Shetlands

I mean no ill-will to you or your articles - they are well written as far as I can see except for this single problematic term. I hope this explanation is satisfactory - if not, let me know. Griceylipper (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Griceylipper, its widely accepted that (the) "Orkneys/Shetlands" is incorrect and many people who live there disagree with it. While it might be understood its still incorrect. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:39, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That must be a local thing because English has traditionally given names to groups of islands that don't have a single island within them with that name. Probably to avoid confusion between the island groups and any individual island. Just off the top of my head, there's the Mariana Islands, the Azores, the Philippines, and not too far from y'all, the Faroe Islands, none containing any such island. And there are plenty more examples that I can think of, especially in the Pacific.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:21, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just a local thing - I'm at the other end of the UK and have long known or been taught that "the Shetlands", etc., is simply incorrect. Certainly, it's to be avoided in an encyclopedia, even if inferior sources sometimes make the mistake of using it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:38, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sturmvogel 66 - To quote this piece:

Old Norse is similar. When referring to the islands, the saga uses the form Orkneyar - 'Orkneys', or possibly 'Orkn-islands'. The Faeroes, in the Saga of King Sverri of Norway are plural too. The king himself at one point thanks the merchants of 'the Orkneys, Shetland, the Faereys or Iceland', and this is a fair translation of the original. The Western Isles, in Norse times known as the Suðreyar, are also plural. Of the western islands in the Atlantic only Shetland - 'Hjaltland' - is at one with Iceland in being singular.

In the saga, the highly distinctive use of the singular for Shetland and plural for Orkney and the Faeroes is undeniable. 'The Shetlands' is never, ever, right and never has been (though that has never stopped the ignorant from using it; neither of course is Zetland, but that is another matter).

The pluralisation of Shetland is an invention of ignorant English authors and is incorrect. This incorrect notion should not be perpetuated in light of a better understanding of the correct usage.

Two of the island groups you named have had the good luck of being subject to colonialism and have had their name imposed upon them by the settlers. The Philippines were named after Philip II of Spain, the Mariana Islands after Mariana of Austria. I'm sure the locals would have had perfectly adequate names that were never so much as considered. I for one would love to know what those names were, wouldn't you?

In a similar vein, I'm sure you could construe that the name "koala" on its own is "a local thing", however that doesn't make "koala bear" correct. Griceylipper (talk) 14:19, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm indifferent as to what the locals called their islands, they can call it whatever they like in their own language's Wikipedia. I am just as indifferent to the argument that the Old Norse version of the name has any relevance to common usage among English-speakers worldwide. I only care about the most common name in English, which is plural. Anyway, if people use the Old Norse name to justify singularizing the Shetlands, what the argument for singularizing the Orkneys? I just don't like it?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sturmvogel 66 This clearly shows that since at least the 60s, "the Shetlands" has been used less than even archaic forms like Zetland. I think the clear "right way" to talk about Shetland is to just say "Shetland" - exactly as I have been editing. Griceylipper (talk) 14:56, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fairly sure that "the most common name" in the US for the UK is England. That doesn't make it right, or worthy of an unqualified mention in an encyclopedia. Nor is "the Shetlands" (or "the Orkneys"). Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Evading my point and not addressing my question about the Orkneys.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sturmvogel 66 Apologies, I missed it - I know that Orcadians (at least in the present) hate "the Orkneys" just as much as we hate "the Shetlands" (hence why I altered some of those too as I found them), however I do appreciate that the usage of that term is not cut and dried. If you wish to change any of my edits of "Orkney" back to "the Orkneys" you can do so, but I reckon it will only be a matter of time before an Orcadian Wikipedian does the same as I have done for Shetland. Why willingly choose to use a problematic term when you can swap it for a non-problematic term? You accuse me of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, it seems to me it is you who is clinging to WP:ILIKEIT in spite of the thousands of Shetlanders who will disagree with you. Griceylipper (talk) 15:46, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

... and in the rest of the UK. If it's a WP:BRITENG issue, the British style should be used. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:16, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well I'm British, and I've never heard of it, so some evidence would be helpful - but then again as some people here consider the English "ignorant"...Nigel Ish (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in England and have never visited the Orkney/Shetland Islands but as far as I'm aware even people here don't use "Orkneys" or "Shetlands" they either use "Orkney Islads"/"Shetland Islands" or just "Orkney"/"Shetland". I've produced a list of sources at User:Crouch, Swale/Island names/Table and as can be seen none use "Orkneys"/"Shetlands". I think the articles should be moved to Orkney Islands and Shetland Islands but that was rejected back in 2018. A number of sources indeed indicate that the plural single word is incorrect[1][2] and there is also this forum. @Sturmvogel 66: do you want "Orkneys"/"Shetlands" to be used everywhere, in which case you should file an RM to move the articles or just for the existing text to be left as is? While as noted I would support adding "Islands" to the titles I would still oppose moving to the plural without "Islands". "Orkney"/"Shetland" by its self does seem to be correct to but definitely not the plural without "Islands". Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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May 25-31 Northern Scotland, watch out!† Encyclopædius 16:09, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopædius Thanks for letting me know, I will mark it in my calendar! Griceylipper (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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I have started a number of drafts for islands around the Northmavine area. They are Draft:Isle of Nibon, Draft:Skerry of Eshaness, Draft:Isle of Westerhouse, Draft:Isle of Gunnister and Draft:Isle of Niddister. I know that you might still be busy with Wikisource but I'm wondering if you have anymore information for these islands since this seems to be the area that you know well. The drafts don't have much content but I thought I'd have a start to see if there is more that you have, probably offline. Interestingly this suggests (the part starting with "Inland from here, overlooking the Loch of Niddister") that there was once a township called "Niddister" which would mean all the islands with "Isle of" apart from Noss and Westerhouse but yes I think its plausible that "Westerhouse" was also a place on the mainland that disappeared as well and Noss having the prefix is simply a mistake by the OS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Crouch, Swale, long time no speak. Yes, my Wikisource work is taking up most of my available time at the moment, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to contribute researching these. The main problem is that since they have always been (or at least I sincerely hope have been!) uninhabited, there is generally very little to say about them. Some of these smaller isles, if large enough (such as Stenness Isle) can support grazing sheep, but I'm not sure if that has been practised in the case of any of these isles (isle of Nibon is most likely here, but I don't know for sure, nor if there is any published record of this).

I know that Hillswick Ness has some interest from geologists as it has quite rare pink granite, though I'm not sure if either the Isles of Niddister or Westerhouse specifically features this type of rock. I am also very poorly versed on geology myself.

Past those two points I'd be really struggling to come up with anything else to say about them.

The one other thing I would however mention - it may make the most sense to describe where these islands are in relation to their namesakes, before concentrating on the nearest "large" village. E.g., Sullom has very little to do with the Isle of Nibon, but it would be an important place in relation to Nibon or Gunnister which are directly opposite. In general, Hillswick will be a better point of comparison as a village for all these islands, as Sullom is on the coast of Sullom Voe, which is many miles away by *sea*, and travelling by sea is (at least in my mind) the most important to consider when talking about these fairly inaccessible and uninhabited islands.

And yes, I think we've well and truly cracked the case on "Isle of Noss" being a mistake - I'll have to write to the OS to sort it, when I get a chance! — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 00:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I hadn't contacted you recently since I haven't made as many island related edits recently and saw you're notice about Wikisource. I have now mentioned the namesakes of Nibon and Gunnister (Eshaness already mentions this) I used Sullom as the place to state the distance for Nibon because the Gazetteer for Scotland gives the distance to that settlement rather than Hillswick. I think you're right that unfortunately there isn't much info on these islands since they are so small and other than Nibon (which I have added a source for a former building) as you say were probably never inhabited. If you do have anything for them that would be great but if not I wouldn't be too worried, either they'll be deleted under WP:G13 or moved to mainspace aster 6 months so that's plenty of time if you're too busy for the next few months.

With Noss yes I'd just write to the OS to ask them to change it, then we'd have to decide if we'd move it back to the base name (Noss) or some other disambiguated title (like Noss (siand) or just leave it as is per WP:NATURAL. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:29, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for 'The Runk' meaning improvement. I see you are still working on the transcription - quite an effort! While I wasn't paying attention someone added some Norn names in the Northern Isles (e.g. Eynhallow, Lerwick) but they were not cited and are being slowly removed as a result. Any idea where they came from? Ben MacDui 09:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're very welcome! Yes, the transcription has sadly taken a bit of a back seat for a while, though eventually I would like to finish off what I started.

Those Norn names - no idea where they've come from. Old Norse Leirvik is pretty well accepted, but I can't find any attestation for Larvik. I have no idea about the Eynhallow one. Anything claimed as being Norn without any source should be taken with a rather large nevfu of salt - Jakobsen's Shetland Norn dictionary/placenames book and Hugh Marwick's Orkney dictionary are about the only comprehensive sources on these matters, and most of what they recorded was Norn filtered through Shaetlan and Orcadian bar a very few scant fragments of nearly direct attestation of conversation, poems, riddles, etc. Little else can be considered much more than conjecture, and a lot doesn't claim to be anything else than exactly that, or attempts at reconstruction (e.g. Nynorn).

It's a shame really - Shaetlan is in a pretty dire state with regards to language recognition, and the project I am a part of to try to secure its place as a recognised language is much of the reason why the dictionary transcription has been put on hold for a while. If only these Norn name inventors had as much zeal for the language we still actually speak, we might have a chance of saving it! — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 21:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed - good luck with the project. I find it striking how many local characters on a well-known BBC crime drama seem to speak with a lowland Scots accent. I imagine this does not accurately reflect real life - although it's a long time since I had the pleasure of visiting my old friend Mavis. Do you have any idea as to the derivation of 'cley' as in Cley Stacks on the main list? Ben MacDui 09:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is a distinct lack of Shaetlan voices in Shetland - Steven Robertson gets the odd word in here or there, and Brian Cox had a stab at it when he appeared but was asked to re-record his lines by the BBC. Surely an odd subtitle or two wouldn't hurt anybody.

Mavis will always have a place in my heart, me being a Northmavine expat. I passed Mavis today in fact!

I can't be certain, but my best guess would be it related to a lot of names containing kleber, which means steatite (soapstone). See mentions of kle under kleberg in Jakobsen. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 22:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good for Brian Cox - completely ridiculous. Thanks for the kle suggestion. I can't see any obvious sign of steatite having been found in that vicinity but I will give it a go. Ben MacDui 15:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]