User:Shyam/List Namespace

I came up with an idea to make a new namespace, called List Namespace for all the articles containing phrase as "list". It will make distinction between lists and articles. Existence articles starting with List of will be associated with List namespace, if my proposal could get consensus. Shyam ^(T/C) 21:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a very major and unexpected change but I'd support that. Will there be any differences between the list namespace and the article namespace? How about special templates for lists? Michaelas10 21:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I was actually writing something like that up, myself : )
Essentially for the user, it's a change in naming from "List of" to "List:". This should help with searches, among other things. (Clarity is typically a good thing.) - jc37 22:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It would also be nice if there was a tool which does a "down-n-dirty" copy of a category to a rough list format. (This would be very useful for CfD resolutions.) - jc37 22:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting proposal. Could we sent trivia lists there too? --W.marsh 21:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably if the trivia is long enough. Michaelas10 22:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was referring to the any number of "List of trivia from (whatever TV show/movie/etc)" articles, many of which have been to AfD recently. --W.marsh 22:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this requires large amount of work obviously but it will make search easier for the list. Some features can also be added in the list namespace to make lists also, but I don't know how feasible is it. There would be no requirement to type List of again and again in search toolbar. We have featured lists which is also in mainspace. That can also be simply replaced in List namespace. Shyam ^(T/C) 22:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

What problem is this actually trying to solve? None that I can see, aside from the fact that some people have an irrational hatred for lists. Besides, how do you define "list" for the purposes of this new namespace? Compare List of Doctor Who serials to List of Doctor Who monsters and aliens -- one is a list pointing to individual articles, in a specific, non-alphabetical order, the other is a collection of what is, essentially, small articles, grouped together because the subjects do not warrant their own articles. Which one is a "list" ? --SB | T 22:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I kind of saw it as a pro-list/trivia thing, it lets people who are obviously interested in reading/writing lists and trivia articles do their thing, without nearly as much interference from MoS, reliable sourcing and other concerns many list and trivia articles tend to run afowl of. I think it could be a lot easier to include lists and trivia if we had a seperate namespace for it, with slightly different rules than for the article namespace. --W.marsh 22:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually think that it deserves its own Wiki, and I proposed it over on MediaWiki but have decided to not promote the proposal until they work out whether they're going to move the process to the Incubator. There are lots of different types of lists, so I don't see how it would make sense putting them all at List: (unlikely Category:, which has only one format). Besides that, there are a lot of lists that are unencyclopedic, but not without some kind of value, which means that one way or another they'd get deleted from here but could quite legitimately belong on a new wiki with different guidelines. Confusing Manifestation 02:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What about disambiguation pages? Tables? Fagstein 03:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation namespace is really a bad idea, since they link to mainspace articles articles anyway, and there are many mixed disambiguation pages. Tables just seem good inside the article, and there are too few of them. Michaelas10 (T|C) 10:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the point of a list namespace. What for? Articles that are currently lists are few. We already have the category namespace. Trivia isn't allowed because wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and trivia doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Besides...i don't think moving articles from main namespace to another namespace is a good idea. The main namespace should contain all encyclopediac articles, moving articles like List of dinosaurs to a list namespace will mean we have two namespaces containing encyclopediac articles. besides list articles and trivia, what else can we put onto the list namespace that doesn't already go into the category namespace? --`/aksha 03:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The point is that we can seperate number of articles which are not detailed and having various data mentioned. The artcles having lists are not very few. See Category:Lists for example. This is not trivia as the lists also contain imprtant information and data. One point is that we do not have encyclopediac articles other than main space but I do not see any harm in it. If a person search for a list in toolbar without typing List:, which does not exist in main space (s)he will get search page where he can fount the desired list. If an article with same name exist in mainspace as well as listspace then we can produce a reverse link in the list and in the article as well. I am unable to get what do you mean by what else can we put onto the list namespace that doesn't already go into the category namespace?. Shyam ^(T/C) 08:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The persons who have any oppositions to this proposal, please mark your oppositions with valid reasons. Regards, Shyam ^(T/C) 19:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the main reasons expressed here for opposing it are that:

• It can sometimes be hard to draw a boundry between an article with lots of sections and a list
• It may be a good idea to give them their own wiki
• We already have a namespace for categories, so there's no point having a namespace for a list
• Extensive trivia (which has been mentioned) doesn't belong inside an encyclopedia
• Introducing the namespace will mean there are two namespaces for encyclopedic articles

Tra (Talk) 23:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"Introducing the namespace will mean there are two namespaces for encyclopedic articles" this is the main reason. Two encyclopedia namespaces would be bad, unless there was really a great need for it. The encyclopedia namespace, being the 'main' one, is the actual "Wikipedia". All the other namespaces are more like 'supporting namespaces'. Having two namespaces spreads out the encyclopedia. Plus...places that mirror Wikipedia only mirror the main namespace. people looking for articles know they can just type in the name of the article after "wiki/" on the url. With list, it'll become "wiki/list:". Besides...each namespace has a unique function. I don't see any purpose for the list namespace, it just intrudes into the boundaries of the main namespace and the category namespace. --`/aksha 23:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Response from my side:

1. It can sometimes be hard to draw a boundry between an article with lots of sections and a list - Yes, sometimes it can be hard, but by drawing about the boundaries based upon the contextx included in list vs contexts existed outside the list, the problem could be resolved. We have featured articles and featured lists sepeartely. What is the process to choose them wheather it is list or an article? If an article starts with List of then it should go into this namespace.
2. It may be a good idea to give them their own wiki - This is a different issue. I am prposing it to Wikipedia project. It could be better on seperate wiki also. But I am not seeking any harm in it on the wikipedia.
3. We already have a namespace for categories, so there's no point having a namespace for a list - The Category namespace has different purpose behind his set up. It is different from category namespace. The main motive for category space to connect differnet articles which are somehow related to each other what I suppose. The list namespace would be for only a single article which has not enough contexts out of the associated list(s).
4. Extensive trivia (which has been mentioned) doesn't belong inside an encyclopedia - This is not trivia because the lists already associated with Wikipedia have important data and informations. So it could not be said that the list namespace would be a part of extensive trivia.
5. Introducing the namespace will mean there are two namespaces for encyclopedic articles - Yes, I agree at that point that it is a bad proposal at that point. But there is not so big deal to have two namespaces associated with encyclopediac articles if it is worthful to do so.
6. All the other namespaces are more like 'supporting namespaces'. - This would also be supportive. Some special features could be added in the toolbar for this namespace, but I am not sure how could it be?
7. people looking for articles know they can just type in the name of the article after "wiki/" on the url. With list, it'll become "wiki/list:" - Right now we have articles starting with Listof. After introducing List namespace it would not create difficulty rather than solving problem, becuase the they would need to type only List: instead of List_of.

Still is there any issues which could create problem to Wikipedia, please mention them. If I am wrong at any this point to answer, please correct me. Regards, Shyam ^(T/C) 07:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

A "thank you" to Tra for the summary : )

• It can sometimes be hard to draw a boundry between an article with lots of sections and a list

• Which is actually a good reason to have this new namespace. Also, see Wikipedia:List. If you feel it needs more clarity, Either be bold, with all that entails, or feel free to drop some change suggestions on the talk page. I'm sure that there are other concerned editors : )

• It may be a good idea to give them their own wiki

• Perhaps, but whether that's true or not, moving them to their own namespace is a great way to isolate them for discussion. There were comments above which said that they feel that there are not many lists on Wikipedia. I disagree. Would someone provide some data on lists?

• We already have a namespace for categories, so there's no point having a namespace for a list

• I think that any editor who feels that way should read: Wikipedia:Categorization, Wikipedia:List, and most importantly, Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes. There is a distinct difference, and a need for all three.

• Extensive trivia (which has been mentioned) doesn't belong inside an encyclopedia

• One man's trivia is another man's vital information. Dates of historical events is a prime example of "trivia" which I would hope would be present on WIkipedia.

• Introducing the namespace will mean there are two namespaces for encyclopedic articles

• Technically, there is "encyclopedic" information also in template and category space. It could be argued that lists are not articles, any more than categories are. Which, I think, is another good reason for it's own namespace.

I've heard it asked: Where's the good?
The good is clarity, usablity, and readability for the casual reader (as opposed to those of us entrenched in wikipedian policies : )
Also, with it's own namespace, searching would actually be easier. When searching for something, hit "search", rather than "go", sometime. Look at the bottom of the search page. If lists had their own namespace, then you could actually choose to include/disinclude the list namespace in your searches. This would be great for those who wish to limit their searches to articles. Lists tend to duplicate much material in articles, which leads to rather long search results. And the reverse is true. Perhaps you just want a list of something, searching for a noun in article space may get you more results than just the 4 lists in which that noun appears.

Now I want to ask: Where's the harm? If this is done, how would it harm wikipedia, and its readers/editors? - jc37 18:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Moving lists into a separate namespace would take information out of the encyclopedia. Mirrors wouldn't pick it up, and searches of the main namespace would fail to pick it up. I think this disagreement comes down to differences of opinion over the point of lists: information vs. navigation. I think it's the former (like articles), while others think it's the latter (like categories). Fagstein 20:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Fagstein, you made a good point. As mirrors are able to pick up images from wikipedia which do exist in namespace other than mainspace, they can do the same for the lists also. All the existing will be redirected to list space so that the former article space would not lose any kind of information. Shyam ^(T/C) 20:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Unless I am mistaken, mirrors can rather easily pick up other namespaces - Wikipedia project space, or Template space, for example. So I don't think that that is an issue. And I agree that the lists are informative, so can templates or categories be. : ) - jc37 21:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not seeking any more objections to this approval. So what is the next step for approval of this proposal? Should it move to bugzilla or somewhere else? Shyam ^(T/C) 14:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The proposal has been moved to bugzilla. If you may want to suggest there something, you are welcomed. Bug number is 7561. Regards, Shyam ^(T/C) 18:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the mirror thing will be an issue. Lots of wikis have separated "article" space. I'm pretty sure it would just be a matter of whoever sets this up adding it to the main dumps that we advertise for mirrors.

Generally discussion for the merits of config changes and so on should happen on-wiki, in the community, not on Bugzilla. Bugzilla is to get the devs' attention, not to discuss anything but the technical aspects of proposals. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems like this proposal would introduce greater complexity without very cleary identified benefits. I'm afraid I just don't see what the point would be. Is there some problem with having lists in the main article space? older ≠ wiser 20:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

There are many problems with same namespace for articles and lists. I try to point out some of them. One of the major problems is to search for a list for newbies. They do not know that most of the lists are started with "List of". So it is difficult to search out for a particular list. Once the list namespace is created a particular list could easily be searched in list namespace. Search in list namespace could be set by default to search box, so that newbies could get the particular list. Second one is that it would be easier to distinguish between a list and an article. Third one is some additional features could be made to structure a list in edit toolbox for the same in the list namespace. Fourth one is we have different criteria for selection of featured articles and featured lists from the same namespace which looks technically wrong. Shyam ^(T/C) 20:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see how having a separate namespace for lists will make it easier for newbies to find lists. If anything, the additional complexity will make it more difficult. Why is is important to distinguish between a list and an article? As many have note, there is no clear dividing line -- many lists morph into articles and as articles grow list-like components are sometimes moved into separate articles. I'm not sure exactly what your third point means--do you have something specific in mind? What is the problem with having separate criteria for featured articles and featured lists? Why is that "technically wrong"? I guess I'm still not able to see any clear benefits and a significan cost in terms of increased complexity, additional development, as well as the potential for a brand new venue for interminable haggling over whether an article is or is not a list. older ≠ wiser 02:35, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyone could find a list without typing "List of" or "List:", if we set the search tool parameter for mainspace and listspace by default. If someone does not want to look for list namespace (s)he could change the default setting accordingly. But would you explore the additional complexity to newbies by introducing listsapce. The important thing is in list, someone could get informations easily in the list. If someone looks for members associated with a particular group he can look into the list namespace. If someone is interested to get specific data, he could do the same in list namespace. There would be no need to look for the whole article. It would make more efficient and well-maintained to wikipedia. There is no harm to make another namespace associated with list. We can set parameter to make a boundary between the criteria for an article and a list. It could be something like that, contexts not associated with the list should dictate about the list in the list namespace. Lists should not have contexts which are anyhow not related to the list. If it is more elaborative other than list it should go to the article space. If there are many lists associated with that article, then one sepearte list could be created in the list namespace and template format of that list could be associated with that article. About additional features I am not so sure how is it feasible in the point of view as a developer. I do not have any software skills, so there is some need to ask a developer for it. About featured articles and featured lists aspects, how would you distinguish that wheather it should go for featured article or featured list if the article contains list and more elaborative and comprehensive? Or an article could be featured on both the places? Shyam ^(T/C) 07:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand what you've said, as you've repeated it several times now. But I still do not see clear benefits and remain unconvinced. older ≠ wiser 13:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think a lot of articles that are currently list have the ability to become more - possibly a comparison. Moving them into a separate namespace might discourage the addition of prose. For example see Comparison of BSD operating systems, the last 3 sections of which (excluding the notes and references) are in list/table format. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 21:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Bottom of the article page could be shifted to list namespace. Template format of that list could be used on the article. I am not seeking any problem other than that. Shyam ^(T/C) 21:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a great idea. Thanks! : ) I guess I have no concerns about this, then. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 00:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia talk:What is an article?#Moved from Talk:Main Page - see especially: "A Wikipedia article can be defined as a page in the database that either has encyclopedic or almanac-like information on it ("almanac-like" being; lists, timelines or charts)."
• Wikipedia talk:Wikiportal/Archive 1#Survey of opinion on a separate namespace for portals and lists
• Wikipedia talk:Featured content#Featured project - brief mention by Shyam, then proposed at Wikipedia talk:Featured lists#List namespace
• Wikipedia talk:Community Portal/Archive 10#Create a List Namespace

To summarize, the mainspace is intended to hold all "encyclopedic" pages. Lists are just a sub-type of article.

I think there are more, but I can't find them. This should probably be moved to Wikipedia:Village pump (perennial proposals) (either now or before it's archived).

On a minor issue, the points raised above about template namespace etc not being included in site-mirrors (and cdrom/paper editions) are valid, as those mirrors/editions essentially subst all templates – They use static html pages, and they do not run the mediawiki software required to transclude templates or utilize categories.

Personally, I'm strongly against a List: namespace, as I suspect it would lead to more content disputes, and more fractured disputes, and open up possibilities of additional list-cruft problems. --Quiddity 23:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Quiddity for highlighting previous discussions related to introduce list namespace. Sometimes lists could work as a sub-type of an article but to get the information collectively there is no harm to do so. But this is not the case always, sometimes list would be its individual existence, most of the articles starting with "List of" are examples of it. Thanks for discussing about site-mirrors, but I am not seeking any problem with list space if they do not run mediawiki software. Would you explore your opposition for it, which kind of disputes could be raised? Shyam ^(T/C) 07:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to chime in here, but I, too am strongly opposed to any such move. The main namespace is for all encyclopedic content; lists are inherently articles and contain such encyclopedic information. Namespaces are for distinguishing different uses of the pages, and all encyclopedic pages should remain in the main namespace. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, till now most of the encyclopediac informations are associated with mainspace, but this is not the point if Wikipedia gets a quality improvement by introducing a namespace. If you say, differnt namespaces have their differnt purposes then I do not completely agree with you, because Portal namespace and Wikipedia Namespace have the same main motive that people could contibute more effectively. Shyam ^(T/C) 07:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

What could be done to involve more people and get consensus to the proposal. I have left messages to the Wikipedia talk:List guideline, Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and series boxes, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, Wikipedia talk:Lists in Wikipedia and Wikipedia talk:Featured lists. I do not think that the vote procedure is good enough right now because people should know and think first how better or worse the proposal could be? Shyam ^(T/C) 15:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

As someone said above, this is 'a solution looking for a problem'. (It doesnt solve anything).

There are no clear benefits to seperating articlespace into 2 sections (only your hypothetical benefits), and there are many obvious drawbacks (increased bureaucracy in more dispersed locations, and increased chance of trivial list additions (counter to WP:NOT), so developers are highly-unlikely to commit time to coding such a complicated addition. (No support at Bug 7561 either).

We need less rules around here, not more. See m:Instruction creep. --Quiddity 19:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Quiddity, It might be a problem initially till the whole process does not complete. At the start it requires a good hard-work, but it would make quality improvement to wikipedia (could be my hypothesis only, according to you). As I mentioned earlier that it would be easier to collect information for a particular institution/group on a single click and with easy search. If you say that there should be no seperate list namespace, then would you please tell me what is the requirement to have two seperate featured contents (i.e. article and list), then according to you we should ban the process for featured lists as well. Shyam ^(T/C) 20:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You're over-stretching the relationship between namespaces and the Featured content status (which is essentially a very large wikiproject, and is complementary to things such as Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Core topics). This is the same problem as with your proposal for a "featured project", "featured template", "featured user", and "featured category" status (linked above). --Quiddity 21:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

To explain it another way, making a List: namespace makes as much sense as creating a Timeline: namespace or Glossary: namespace or Year: namespace. Or Infobox: namespace (to address the thread below): an infobox is a template, just like a list is an article. There would have to be a really damn good reason to make it more complicated (which is what this would do). There was more support for a Userbox: namespace, than you are likely to get for this. Sorry :( but there it is. --Quiddity 21:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Quiddity, I realise the problem associated with the process. So, I withdraw from this proposal. But, It would be better to archive all the discussions at a suitable place. Regards, Shyam ^(T/C) 06:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought perennial proposals was an archive. Hmm.

I guess the best way to retain it would be either copying the discussion to a subpage in your own userspace (as I did with my failed highlight search box proposal), or just bookmarking a link to an archived copy of this thread. --Quiddity 20:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see what the problem is. When you search, "default" namespaces are searched. If List has it's own namespace, then it's rather simple to have that be one of the defaults. How is this not better for Wikipedia? Once in place, how would this be "more complex"? We have "featured lists", which is separate from featured articles. It would seem to me that this is already a "de facto" separation, why not recognise that and give it its own namespace? It would also help in other kinds of searching. Go check out "special pages" and see how many nice uses it would have. (Not to mention watchlist use.) I'm sorry, but this really sounds like a great, very useful idea. - jc37 06:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just been pointed toward this thread, so thought I'd add another dimension/spanner to the works by suggesting the creation of an Infobox: namespace. Hopefully the rationale would already be understood; infoboxes seem to be established as part of the Wikipedia furniture, so why not assign them their own (less redundantly-named) namespace...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 00:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

umm...because infoboxes are templates? --`/aksha 01:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, `/aksha; I don't understand, though, why it precludes an Infobox: space...?  Ultimately, aren't User:, Wikipedia:, Template:, etc all wikipages that, in terms of their potential content, applicable wikisyntax, etc, no different from mainspace pages...?  Yours, David (talk) 02:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of a name space is to make it easier to navigate, categories and name pages on wikipedia. For example, users can have their own pages without needing disambiguiation with actual articles - because user pages are in their own namespace. Similarly, a template and an article can have the exact same name, but both can exist because they're in different name spaces. Namespaces also quickly tell people what they of a page they're looking at (e.g. a encyclopedia page, a user page, a page about wikipedia...etc). The main namespace is for encyclopedic articles. The user namespace is for user pages...etc. There is never going to be a page that can count as both a user page and a encyclopedia page. Where as infoboxes are a subcategory of templates. It basically means we end up with two template namespaces - one for all templates except infoboxes, and one for infoboxes. It also means we need clear cut lines on what exactly is an infobox and what is a template but not a infobox. It's also unessasary. For example, we don't have too many templates that giving infoboxes their own namespace will make navigation easier. --`/aksha 04:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

This has been proposed before. One question that needs to be asked is why infoboxes are important enough to get their own namespaces, and not the other tyes of templates such as navigation bars, talk page templates etc. Tra (Talk) 12:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience, `/aksha, Tra; I guess (1) I happen to've seen/tweaked many more infoboxes than other types of template; (2) seeing a similar proposal (List:), I thought I'd mention my idea again as it didn't garner as much response as I thought it might. Best wishes, David (talk) 14:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out : a new namespace for lists ? Now I am a Wikipedia user and I try and find some info, may it be an article or a list, I dunno. How does WP give me the info : searching across two namespaces each time ?

How many lists do we have ? maybe less (try : "random article") than census results about improbable (not at all non-notable :-)) townships. I really do not see the point, because only Wikipedia editors use the other namespaces, and WP is made for users first. -- DLL ^{.. T} 20:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The nominator has withdrawn the proposal, just above. --Quiddity 20:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)