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Convicted felon in opening sentence
editWhy is it ok to label him as a convicted felon, but not Donald Trump? This is a serious question/ 2604:3D09:927F:E900:9CE8:5D57:9E0F:544C (talk) 16:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Milowent
- I trust your expertise 2604:3D09:927F:E900:9CE8:5D57:9E0F:544C (talk) 16:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- WP:Crime labels - it shouldn't be done for anyone. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- yeah, I don't think it is appropriate to list either of them as a felon in the opening sentence of the articles. That's the sort of thing that happens and gets reverted on the news day.--Milowent • hasspoken 16:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with no labels except for people like Dahmer or Bundy only known for their atrocities.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.246.97.81 (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Doesn't belong in the first sentence, should be mentioned in the lead with full context (as is already true). WP:Crime labels gets at some of the reasons. Generally, I feel like the truncated label in the first sentence is both over-weighted and under-informative. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. Though I agree with the above IP that it should be done in the cases of a Dahmer or a John Wayne Gacy only notable for their crimes. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Heading off topic here, but both of those have first-sentence labels that are clear about what they did, focused on the crimes and not the convictions. Much more informative. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. Though I agree with the above IP that it should be done in the cases of a Dahmer or a John Wayne Gacy only notable for their crimes. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I challenged the addition of the label but was immediately reverted with the editsum "small fix". I added the felony conviction to the last lead paragraph which is entirely about the gun charges and the conviction. Repeating what I said in my edit summary: MOS:LEADSENTENCE: "Do not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Instead, spread the relevant information out over the entire lead." MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE: The felony conviction is not the most notable thing about him; the conspiracy theories about him are more notable and not mentioned (WP:WEIGHT.) Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. The relevant manual of style MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE dictates that not be covered in the lead. Your placement seems best. I think we also need to consider the lead of this article is rather long and we could do with reducing it and moving some other stuff into the body. TarnishedPathtalk 05:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- I disagreed with having that in the opening sentence for Trump, and I think the same standard should be applied here. 100.11.18.155 (talk) 16:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that "convicted felon" should be included in his opening sentence. These are actual felonies and not politically-motivated misdemeanors that are tried as felonies. EnSingHemm (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- This entire process has been politically motivated. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please provide the guideline which supports your opinion, because MOS:FIRSTBIOSENTENCE suggests it shouldn’t be in the first sentence because it’s not the main reason for his notability TarnishedPathtalk 05:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose in first sentence per Muboshgu: "WP:Crime labels - it shouldn't be done for anyone." and "it should be done in the cases of a Dahmer or a John Wayne Gacy only notable for their crimes" and per Space4Time3Continuum2x: "MOS:LEADSENTENCE: 'Do not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Instead, spread the relevant information out over the entire lead. MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE:The felony conviction is not the most notable thing about him...'" Also WP:Crime labels. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment it doesn't say "convicted felon" any more in the first sentence but "Biden was found guilty on three felony charges..." right at the end of the lead. This is fine in my opinion — Iadmc♫talk 17:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - First, WP:Crime labels is an essay, not policy. Most important, we need to examine what Hunter is most notable for. Unlike Trump, who is notable for his many accomplishments--businessman, entertainer, president--Hunter is notable for far less. I would agree to hold off on this label, and then re-assess when his tax trial is completed, and when Comer is done with him. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:49, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- WP:BLPSTYLE is a policy:
Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources.
Hunter Biden is not. He's mostly known for being the son of his father, and Comer will never stop trying to find a shred of evidence (and good luck with that) as long as he's chairman of the Committee of Biden Family Investigations. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- WP:BLPSTYLE is a policy:
- Oppose in first sentence basically per Muboshgu. The first sentence is usually for listing a person's notable activities, and neither "felon" nor "convicted felon" are activities, they're a legal status (and "convicted" is redundant). For someone who is primarily known for their criminal activity, we give a high-level summary of their crimes (from examples given above, Ted Bundy: "an American serial killer"; Jeffrey Dahmer: "an American serial killer and sex offender"; and one more, Bernie Madoff: "an American financial criminal and financier"). There is no way for us to say currently if history will remember Hunter Biden as a criminal, and the current news cycle is not the place to go looking for reliable sourcing on that. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- No... hell no. This is no on so many levels. First, Hunter is already a public figure so how is "felon" the thing he is most known for now? This is a BLP so we need to be careful about undue harm to the subject. If the conviction is reversed, thrown out on a technically will we apologize? Is anyone most known for being a "felon"? Do we say a convicted mobster is a felon in the first sentence of their biographies? In the lead is arguably reasonable but even then it should be kept in context. He was convicted of [specific crime] not the nebulous label "felon" that tells the reader nothing about the crime or even if the prosecution may be political etc. Springee (talk) 19:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- No. Absolutely not Grossly undue. Blatantly violates WP:BLP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment should probably be mentioned pretty early. He's mostly known for being the president's son and making questionable choices in his personal life. And convicted felon gets that second part across quite well. Maybe give it until after sentencing to see how things shake out.©Geni (talk) 19:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've left a hidden note in the source to try to limit the number of times this is added by potentially well-meaning editors who are not aware of this discussion. This was an attempt at adminning a contentious topic, as an uninvolved admin. Please let me know if I did something wrong, CT-enforcement-wise. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I said something similar at the duplicate thread at BLPN but I think adding a hidden note (which any editor capable of editing the page can do) is really pushing the definition of both "admin action" and "arbitration enforcement" quite badly. I think you're fine, in fewer words. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps I worded it too self-importantly for my own good? Nevermind, you're probably too nice to tell me so. Anyway, the rationale was that I really do intend to ECP the article if that doesn't work, so I was kind of leaning on that warning more heavily than normal. Floquenbeam (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I said something similar at the duplicate thread at BLPN but I think adding a hidden note (which any editor capable of editing the page can do) is really pushing the definition of both "admin action" and "arbitration enforcement" quite badly. I think you're fine, in fewer words. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Create an RFC on felon in leade? 207.96.32.81 (talk) 21:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- We're kind of doing one already. Anyway, RfCs are a pain! — Iadmc♫talk 21:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Calling Hunter Biden a convicted felon violates neutral tone. It's better to just say that he was convicted of three felonies and explain what they were. That applies to pretty much anyone whose notability is not based on a criminal career. TFD (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- No as Hunter Biden's biography is not defined by a conviction, any more than Donald Trump's is. Speaking of Trump, I will also lob a grenade-opinion into the mix; anyone who votes one way on this and the opposite way at Talk:Donald_Trump#RfC_on_use_of_"convicted_felon"_in_first_sentence, regardless of which way it is, should likely be topic-banned from the American Politics topic area. Zaathras (talk) 21:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Agreed. This article has suffered all year from editors who are influenced by their political bias and I assume the same is true of the Donald Trump article. I think the convictions in both cases are significant enough to mention along with other relevant facts in the lead. Hunter Biden is the first son of a sitting President to be convicted of a felony while his father was in office and Trump is the first former President to be convicted of a felony. There are multiple citations for both these facts and it is likely that these facts will be in n the first paragraph of future articles about them, in history texts and in current news articles. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I agree that generally felony convictions should not be in the first sentence of a lead unless that is the only thing the person is notable for. I disagree on your last point, as a former president and the son a current president are not really comparable. It could be argued, for instance, that Hunter Biden is mostly noteworthy because of his father, and his legal controversy while being the son of a president. Trump is noteworthy independent of his political career, and his presidency has a lot more noteworthy stuff. Trumps conviction after being voted out of office really seems more of a footnote in the grand scheme of things. I don't think either should have this in their lead, but do think someone could hold different opinions on the different pages in good faith. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- No agree with above that 'convicted felon' should only be included in lead sentences only when that descriptor is a defining characteristic/what the person is known for/etc. Pretty easy to come back to this in a couple of years when the dust has settled and know whether it should be included (same goes for Trump in my mind). Not sure if this has been called into question, but the details of the conviction should definitely stay in the lead somewhere, and I like the last paragraph that is currently in the article.Yeoutie (talk) 22:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose adding "convicted felon" to the lead sentences of both this article and the Donald Trump article. 'Convicted felon' means the person has been convicted of a felony; are (Hunter) Biden and Trump notable/known for being convicted of felony charges? I would say no. Some1 (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment At this point I it seems like the consensus is strong here. But I was curious and decided to see how we handled this on the page of someone who is only notable for their crimes. Ted Kaczynski came to mind. A keyword search for "felon", which he clearly is, returned zero hits. So if a serial killer/bomber's biograph can exist without a single mention of "felon" in the whole article I feel like we could make it at least through the first sentence without using the word here (and likely in every other biograph on Wikipedia). Springee (talk) 01:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- I support convicted felon being in the lead sentence, due to Hunter Biden's main notoriety now being that he is the first child of a president to be convicted of a crime. This is his main notoriety since he has not held any important offices except at Amtrak. He is mainly known for this conviction and for the laptop scandal. laganrat (talk) 21:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Additionally it seems to be recentism for it to be excluded since his conviction(s) is clearly what he will be known for mostly when historians look back. laganrat (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wow, what an amazing crystal ball you possess! Not only can it determine that the most recent event in a man's life is automatically the most notable, it has looked forward and recorded what historians have already concluded. Wowzers! Zaathras (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. But if it is put deeper in the page, it may seem slightly less important. I feel that it being put at the end of the lead paragraphs, which is what it has now, should be a good balance. It doesn't appear as the page's main focus, although it definitely has some influence. CosmoCreeper249 (talk) 12:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Additionally it seems to be recentism for it to be excluded since his conviction(s) is clearly what he will be known for mostly when historians look back. laganrat (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe your right. I feel that it should be put in the page, although if it gets put in the lead sentence, it may be the main focus for the reader. Although, it should definitely be put somewhere. CosmoCreeper249 (talk) 12:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Obviously not. I'm not sure how this turned into an impromptu RfC, but we do not refer to people as convicted felons in the lead sentence unless that is the source of their notability. In this case, it is not. AlexEng(TALK) 01:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support adding "convicted felon" in the first sentence, as Hunter Biden is primarily notable for being investigated (by Congress) and criminally prosecuted, including for illicit drug use.
- Side-note: I also supported adding "convicted felon" to the lead of Trump's article (no consensus was reached), as his New York trial and verdict generated massive media attention for weeks. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 04:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is a lofty peak of intellectual dishonesty to take Hunter Biden being the center of a far-right conspiracy theory (Ukraine, Burisma) and claim that he is a notable felon because of a conviction in a completely, like literally 100%, unrelated gun and drug matter. It would be like writing "Al Capone is a gangster, businessman, and tax cheat." Zaathras (talk) 01:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose I hope to be similarly consistent as the commenter before me; I also opposed this on the Donald Trump article. jp×g🗯️ 01:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose — Unless an individual is known for being a convicted felon, it would be inappropriate to add that descriptor to the introductory sentence. This applies to Al Capone—arguably more notable for being a felon, even if on tax charges—and Donald Trump. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:46, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hunter Biden is known for being under investigation for his actions, including drug addiction, the later of which resulted in his conviction. Biden's other children--Ashley Biden, Beau Biden (died in 2016), and Naomi Biden (died in 1972)--are all far less mentioned compared to Hunter Biden, because they have not committed questionable and illegal actions.
- Side-note: I continue to support adding "convicted felon" to the first paragraph of the Donald Trump article, either in the 1st or 2nd sentence. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Hunter is mostly known for being the son of Joe Biden and for the whole Ukraine conspiracy theory. His conviction on a completely different matter (gun and drug stuff) is not what he is primarily notable for. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 22:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I think Hunter is more known for his drug/alcohol abuse, than that he was convicted of some specific crime. If the opening sentence would include (1) "former drug abuser" or (2) "convicted felon" in the opening sentence, then I'd rather have (1) than (2). But I also don't think the opening sentence should talk about "former" things so I don't think (1) or (2) should be in the opening sentence.
- With that in mind, I think the current sentence "Biden was convicted of three federal ..." should be preceded by a mention of his history with drug/alcohol abuse. Paditor (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
legal issues
editI'm confused why there isn't the standard legal issues section that many public figure entries have. Surely it would be useful to have a brief summary of the many legal issues facing Biden, with links to main articles such as the Weiss investigation. 108.48.104.245 (talk) 09:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- The current version of this article does contain an extensive section entitled "Investigations and federal indictments." 98.123.38.211 (talk) 15:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
The "big guy"
editShouldn't this article mention (if only briefly) the email mentioning 10% for "the big guy" (who could benefit from Hunter Biden's company's deal with mainland Chinese interests)? I came here looking for information about this, but, in doing a CTRL-F search, nothing came up for "big guy." It seems worth mentioning, since it has been widely covered in the mainstream media, and we do aim to be properly encyclopedic. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Pretty sure that would be mentioned in Hunter Biden laptop controversy نوحفث Let's Chat! 14:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)