Talk:Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act

A user objects to addition of a poll that shows most Americans oppose the funding of abortion overseas. Their objection is rested on the belief that since it does not mention the Helms Amendment directly it should not be included. I feel given that the Helms Amendment is directly tied with the question it is not a reach to connect the two. Furthermore, other sources have already done so House Democrats Vote to Fund Elective Abortions Overseas with U.S. Tax Dollars | National Review, Poll: Majority support legal limits on abortion, oppose taxpayer funding | America Magazine Hyde Amendment not in Biden’s budget, signaling abortion policy change - Deseret News Thus I do not see a reason not to mention the polling or maintain it is not connected to the Helms Amendment.

With regards to the Mexico City Policy, I do not see why its history is mentioned here. It was a separate policy enacted a decade later. The current wording says "The Mexico City Policy is a direct result of the Helms Amendment of 1973": Yet the article does not say that. Instead the mention is that the Helms Amendment is stricter than the Mexico City Policy:

"In practice, it has also been used to prohibit the use of federal funding for all abortions even in the circumstances of rape, incest, or risk to the life of the pregnant person, exceptions that have been allowed in other areas of U.S. international abortion law and policy, such as the Mexico City Policy when it has been in place."

So, I really do not see the point of having its history discussed. I do believe it should be in the see also section, but do not think it belongs in the main article in its current form.  I hope that explains my position well enough and would like to hear from others. 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

It doesn't matter that you don't see why the Mexico City Policy is mentioned here. I didn't add it, but I looked at the sourcing, and the sourcing explicitly discusses the policy and the connections to the Helms Amendment. If you really wanted to improve the article, you could add more references from a multitude of reliable sources. Wes sideman (talk) 16:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The policy discussion is that Helms is stricter than the MCP that is not reflected in the current wording. As a separate policy I do not see why we need to include its history here. 3Kingdoms (talk) 16:32, 3 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Already explained that the sources explain how closely they are linked. Time to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Wes sideman (talk) 16:55, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Neither source on the Mexico City policy says they are closely linked. I do not understand your “drop the stick” claim. You are the only person who has opposed the inclusion of the polling and the removal of the Mexico City policy. No one else has weighted in which is why I made this thread that you also said I should do. Your adamant opposition to the inclusion of the polling I do not understand since you have never addressed the fact that I have multiple sources linking the Marist poll to the Amendment itself. 3Kingdoms (talk) 21:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I somewhat weakly oppose mentioning the poll. We have sources that mention both the amendment and the poll, but not sources that draw much of a connection between the two. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for the response. I understand your point, even though I disagree. It seems to come down to interpretation of the sources. For me it's not a stretch to include polling gauging support for something and then linking it to the policy that does just that even if not mentioned. Anyway, what is your view of the section regarding the Mexico City Policy? 3Kingdoms (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

What sources support "The Mexico City Policy is a direct result of the Helms Amendment of 1973"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

While I feel this is really nitpicking at individual words now, I removed "direct result", edited the sentence, and added a source. The connection is pointed out by countless sources. I'm happy to add 50 more if that's what it takes to satisfy all editors. Wes sideman (talk) 14:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

No source says MCP is a direct result of Helms. KFF mention of is:

"In practice, it has also been used to prohibit the use of federal funding for all abortions even in the circumstances of rape, incest, or risk to the life of the pregnant person, exceptions that have been allowed in other areas of U.S. international abortion law and policy, such as the Mexico City Policy when it has been in place."

Wes has since added two sources that says some anti-abortion activists wanted to go further which eventually led to the MCP. 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I agree. Most of the connection is being drawn by 3Kingdoms himself. It's WP:SYNTHESIS. Wes sideman (talk) 15:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Here are three additional sources linking polling support to the amendment. [1],[2], & [3]

Newsweek - not a reliable source, check WP:NEWSWEEK

Catholic News Agency - obviously POV source on its face

Forbes article mentions the Knights of Columbus poll once, in passing, and points out that the Knights are an anti-abortion group.

For a good explanation of why that poll was deeply flawed in the first place, you can read this article. Wes sideman (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Should a link to the 21 January 2022 America magazine article reporting a Marist poll showing 54% opposition to taxpayer funding of abortion^[1] be included in the article on the Helms Amendment? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please answer Yes or No with a brief explanatory statement in the Survey. Please do not reply to other editors in the Survey. That is what the Discussion is for.

• No. After looking into this debate some more, I think the article will be better without the addition of the poll. The beginning of the article is currently good, but it becomes a bit of a WP:Coatrack around the Mexico City Policy. Including the poll seems to require explaining the background of the poll, who commissioned it, who did it, and how it didn't ask about the Helms Amendment directly. This all seems like a lot of ink to spill on a minor piece of information that's indirectly related to the Helms amendment. It's fine if this article is short and doesn't cover the poll. Yes It's WP:V. Marist is a good pollster and information about public opinion related to taxpayer funding of abortion seems germane to the article. But I wonder why you opened this RFC? This doesn't seem like a controversial edit to me.

Groceryheist (talk) 20:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC) Groceryheist (talk) 06:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

• No. (Summoned by bot) After reading the discussion at DRN, I think the poll adds nothing to understanding of the topic and therefore that the article is better without it. It is giving too much WP:WEIGHT to a barely reported, relatively small-scale and non-neutrally-commissioned poll - which is only peripherally related to Helms - to include it in the article. Why is this poll so important? Pincrete (talk) 04:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
• No - I oppose including the poll based on the non-reliability of any single poll on abortion as being representative of public opinion. (Undue weight for ONE poll paid for by a non-neutral organization; Knights of Columbus, a Catholic anti-abortion group, funded this poll.)

A very quick search without more investigation finds this 2021 opinion piece by a reproductive rights organization which cites a poll which directly contradicts the Marist poll: "Recent polling shows that a majority of Americans support funding global health programs that provide comprehensive reproductive health services, abortion included. The same poll showed a majority of Americans want to repeal Helms."

And this article in the Washington Post says: We’re often wary of polls commissioned by advocacy groups. In this case, Jayapal is relying on a poll done for a group that wants more public funding of abortions. The outcome of polls often depends greatly on the framing of questions. (my bolding)---Avatar317^(talk) 00:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

• Yes Marist is a well-respected polling group. Regarding the issue of commissioning the poll. I agree that abortion polling is always difficult because of framing, but it does not make it impossible. The WP mentions the issue with the poll showing support by mentioning its long and somewhat confusing question. The Marist poll by contrast is straightforward in asking about the policy Helms governs. Of course, the article also mentions terms like "tax-payer funded" also can have a negative effect, but believed it not to mitigate the results. This resulted in them coming out against Jayapal's assertion of support with regards to repealing Hyde. I believe the same should be applied to this one on Helms. Finally I feel enough reliable sources such as Desert have mentioned the poll in the contexts of the amendment to warrant inclusion3Kingdoms (talk) 13:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
• Yes Public opinion adds value to understanding of the topic. While Marist is indeed highly respected, results from multiple polls may be added as well to present a more balanced public opionion. Thank you. Path2space (talk) 03:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

User:Groceryheist - See the discussion at DRN and previous disagreement on the article talk page. So, yes, I opened the RFC because it was controversial. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:31, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I was brought here by Yapperbot so I didn't have the background. I see that a pro-life organization commissioning the poll would raise concerns that the topic was sufficiently important to collect polling data about and can imagine ways that this could bias the poll. However, the 54% number doesn't seem super surprising given that most Americans support abortion's legality but don't like it. It would be better if there were several polls that had asked this or similar questions as a basis of comparison. I'll think about revising my survey response. Groceryheist (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Reply