Talk:Carmen Miranda/Archive 2

Can any one name a movie other than The Gang's All Here where she wore fruit on her head? It's certainly her iconic image, but she realized that it was making a caricature out of herself and did not repeat it. 19:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's from Copacabana. I can't tell if that's fruit or not. But this will lead you to other clips that you can check out. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

• I think she wore one in Copacabana with Groucho Marx and in That Night in Rio . This video shows clips of her wearing several [1]. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This discussion page claims Carmen Miranda nationality is Portuguese-born Brazilian and this is wrong. The discussion about this was never a consensus and it goes against WP:MOSBIO rule. Also the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" doesn't exists. A person or is Brazilian or is Portuguese or is both, not to mention the citation used is a book called "The Brazilian Sound: Samba, Bossa Nova, and the Popular Music of Brazil" and after reading the page 32 as cited, it doesn't refer anywhere that she was a brazilian or portuguese-born brazilian, in the other hand there are many other reliable sources that show she is portuguese and that never adquired brazilian citizenship. Because of all this i don't understand why the discussion made by other people besides me was erased nor understand why the discussion about this topic was closed and so i re-open the discussion and will keep correcting the intro, cause it goes against wiki rules. Tacv (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Well thank you for announcing that you intended to edit war to get your way. That always works out well. You opened an RfC and it didn't go your way. Coming back every few months is not going to change anything. Move on and edit other articles. If you can't manage to do that on your own, I'm sure someone with some tools can help you out with that. Pinkadelica^♣ 18:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

No i don't want to force my way. RfC didn't resolve anything, didn't bring any consensus to the issue and didn't adress the things i said, thats exactly why im writing about this again. Again if your interested in maintaining that expression respond to what i said about WP:MOSBIO rule and all the things i stated in the last comment and don't simple comment about other stuff. Respond to the issues that are being discussed and do not try to do personal attacks. And also i will open as many RfC as it takes till someone responds and refers to what i state. Thank you Tacv (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

As I stated before, the RfC (which is still very visible on this page) did bring about a consensus, you just didn't like it. You most certainly cannot open numerous RfCs because you're not getting your way. I highly suggest you read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and take the appropriate steps because these games you're playing aren't going to fly. This issue has been discussed ad naseum and the circular arguments supported only by your POV are not worth discussing yet again. As for personal attacks, I again suggest you read WP:PA and then show me a diff where I personally attacked you. To date, I've only commented on your disruptive behavior here and on the Nelly Furtado article. Pinkadelica^♣ 19:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

This nonsense again? The wording "Portugese-born Brazilian" is fine as it is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:56, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Well once again the things in discussion wasn't adressed by you nor by any other editor (that are always the same editors i wonder why). In the last RfC the things i asked to be commented wasn't adressed. The WP:MOSBIO is very clear and in no way was adressed in your last comments nor in the RfC. The only thing said about it was by pinkadelica that called it a "phantom rule", as everyone can read on the last RfC, and so it cleary shows how biase and how unfounded is your arguments. So till someone adress the wikipedia bigraphy rule issue and in that note why the use of "portuguese-born brazilian" i will keep asking for RfC. Comments like the last editor stating the wording "portuguese-born brazilian" is fine, is based on personal opinions and thus it doesn't have any relevance to this discussion. Again that expression doesn't exist, it isn't even used on the book that is used as a citation on the article and it goes against WP:MOSBIO rule so please if you want to respond don't use diversion methods by adressing other things and not refer to what im presenting. Thank you Tacv (talk) 20:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I have the article watchlisted because of this very nonsense, so that solves the mystery as to why the same editors keep responding. You can keep asking for an RfC (whatever the hell that means) all you like but you've already exhausted that avenue of dispute resolution. Your next step is mediation. Either follow the proper dispute resolution steps or find a new cause to champion. Either way, the content regarding Miranda's nationality isn't going to be changed and no one is going to debate this with you for a third time especially since your arguments haven't changed one iota. Pinkadelica^♣ 21:01, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment, it seems strange to me also, Portuguese born Brazilian?? what is that supposed to mean and does it say that on the passport? Off2riorob (talk) 21:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

IMO..She is a dual nationality Portuguese Brazilian who was born in Portugal but lived her whole life in Brazil. 21:20, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

To the above editor No, Carmen Miranda don't have dual citizenship cause that was forbiden in her lifetime. She maintained her portuguese citizenship all her life and so she lived in Brazil and in the United States as a foreigner. This is fact, Carmen Miranda never gave up of her portuguese citizenship to have a brazilian one.

To pinkadelica Well i dont find it hard to understand that my arguments were never answered nor before nor now. I would like to know why do you keep avoiding to response to what im presenting. I think its not necessary to go to mediation before trying to discuss this issue since you never adressed it before. Im here with good faith trying to understand why do you defend the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" after all the arguments i gave you. I also don't understand why the comments and sources that defend the samething i do were erased in this discussion page. Again i will ask for mediation or present a new comment request (that i hope you dont close it before it ends)only if i see that we don't agree on her natinality because both of us have valid arguments based on verifiable sources. I already presented mine and im asking you to present yours, a thing that you still haven't made. If you don't have valid arguments based on facts and not on personal opinions then i don't see why do i have to present a mediation or a comment request. Tacv (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Well she clearly had legal premission to stay in Brazil and did stay her whole life. It would be wrong not to accredit that. Off2riorob (talk) 21:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Well of course, but that doesn't make her Brazilian. She spent most of her life in the United Stated were she gain notability and so going it that idea she should be called american (which is a very silly idea). The fact is that in her lifetime in Brazil and in Portugal people couldn't have dual citizenship. To became a brazilian she had to give up her portuguese citizenship, the same if she wanted to became a north american. The relationship of her to Brazil is very clear on the article but the reference to her as a brazilian in the intro is against wikipedia rules and making the suggestion that she was a brazilian citizen is also a false idea. Tacv (talk) 21:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to add that, as i already said before, i can agree with the expression "portuguese-brazilian" in the intro if that helps to get a resolution to this issue, but only if (like in the portuguese version of this article) the expression "portuguese-brazilian" is followed by a note saying she never adquire the brazilian citizenship. Now the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" i can't agree with.Tacv (talk) 21:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

At this point, it's becoming clear that you're only interested in painting yourself as the victim. When editors stars accusing others of attempting to silence them, I know it's time to check out because all logic has gone bye-bye. For the record, I didn't close the last RfC. That was done by an anonymous IP user when it became clear that it has run its course. The only thing I did do was revert an another anonymous IPs attempt alter comments in the closed RfC which is perfectly acceptable. This talk page was also regularly archives by Miszabot so any important "missing" comments of yours are in the talk page archive. Since you stated that you don't want to go through mediation, that indicates to me that this is yet another game that I'm not interested in playing. We're done it twice already. Enough is enough. Pinkadelica^♣ 22:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

• I also don't support what is there now, it is wrong. I could also support as Tacv is proposing, Portuguese Brazilian in the lede and an explanation in the article. Off2riorob (talk) 22:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC) Off2riorob (talk) 22:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
  • She's identified with Brazil, not Portugal. She was called "The Brazilian Bombshell" or some such. NOT the "Portugese" Bombshell. To identify her primarily as Portugese is just plain wrong. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:17, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

To the above userThe above user comment is a plain simple personal opinions on something that is a fact, Carmen Miranda wasn't brazilian. Wikipedia is based on facts not in personal opinions. The fact she has a nickname doesnt change the fact she was indeed portuguese.

To Pinkadelica I never acused you of trying to silence me, you are the one that keeps avoiding adressing the real discussion and prefers to do personal acusations like that. Calling me someone that only wants a war and that im now trying to be a victim only because i use facts and wikipedia rules is a sign that you do personal attacks and do not discuss the issues that are brought to the table. And also the comments i spoke about that were erased weren't mine, were the ones made by other people in this discussion page, and again i didn't said it was you that did that. I don't know why do you have to fell that the fact Carmen wasn't brazilian is a personal and ofensive attack to you. I hope you will change the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" as the unbiased editor Offriorob commented. Tacv (talk) 22:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Technically it does seem that she remained Portuguese by legal status, and perhaps for mos at wiki, although it clearly requires a lot of explaining in the article, she also seems to have had an affinity to this status as she never gave it up. Off2riorob (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

We can't really say she is Brazilian, although she is strongly connected, was perhaps as Brazilian as they come but not technically Brazilian on paper or records. What is in the lede now is very wrong imo. Off2riorob (talk) 22:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, based on the fact she is indeed portuguese and on wikipedia rules i also agree with you. Lets now hope the lede is corrected. Tacv (talk) 22:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. We've been through this over and over. You cannot find a reliable source that identifies her as "Portugese", yet you insist on trying to identify her with Portugal, rather than Brazil, which is what reliable sources identify her with. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

She clearly was born in Portugal and carried a Portuguese passport, which she insisted on keeping, no one is trying to steal her, she went to school in Brazil grew up n Brazil and started her musical career in Brazil ..went to America, the dates are weak in the article as to when she went first but from 1939 she stayed there and lived there and got married there and died there, when she went back once for a concert she was rejected by Brazil and having been americanized, although the Brazilians in her death did grieve over her. The connection to Portugal is that she was born there, she had a Portuguese passport and never stopped using it, when she traveled it would be the Portuguese embassy that she would be helped by if in trouble. There is no stealing, she has this legal tie to Portugal, thats all, no one can steal the details of her life. Off2riorob (talk) 23:55, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

You don't know the history. That redlink user has been at this for many months now, trying to figure out some angle to identify her with Portugal rather than Brazil. It's like trying to identify Bob Hope as British. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I can see it has been going on, but the fact is she carried a Portuguese passport all her life. And... There is simply no such thing as a portuguese born Brazilian, the other user seems to be happy with the removal on born from the lede, this is an easy solution, imo. Bob hope is a bit british, in fact bob hope is less british that miranda is portuguese, he gave up his British citizenship and became an American legally where as miranda never did that with Brazil. Off2riorob (talk) 00:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

She's associated with Brazil, therefore she's Brazilian. She was born in Portugal, therefore she's Portugese-born. Hence, "Portugese-born Brazilian". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there a citation were she herself supports your position? Off2riorob (talk) 00:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Which part? She's obviously Portugese-born. And sources identify her with Brazil. It is the redlink who has yet to produce any evidence that she was instead identified with Portugal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, why didn't she want to become a Brazilian citizen? She had a lifetime to do that and didn't. Off2riorob (talk) 00:20, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

How should I know? Get in your time machine and go ask her. For that matter, why didn't she become an American citizen? My guess is she didn't consider the issue to be very important. She was an entertainer, not a politician. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

In the intro of articles of Wikipedia only the citizenship should be refered. That is a very clear rule. The fact she is associated with Brazil doesn't make her a Brazilian. Fact she only had portuguese citizenship and never gave it up to a brazilian or american citizenship. I thin this is very clear and don't understand why do some users/editors try to discuss this issue not using facts or adressing the topic but accusing me of things. Tacv (talk) 00:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

She's identified with Brazil, not Portugal. Your trying to claim her for Portugal won't fly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I would like to ask the above user to stop being rude and acusing me of things and to stick to the topic. And what will not fly is the fact that your are using a diversion method by acussing me of things to avoid the central fact she never was brazilian and claming the oposite is a lie and goes against wiki rules and politics. Also when stating something, please use facts and not personal opinions. The bottom line is that carmen being identified with Brazil as you claim doesn't make her a brazilian period. Tacv (talk) 00:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

And I would like the above user to cease and desist from trying to change the facts to suit his personal preference. P.S. Here's a writeup on her biography, which is called Brazilian Bombshell, which was her nickname, not "Portugese" bombshell. She apparently did her best to downplay her Portugese birth. So the statement that she "didn't want" to be a Brazilian citizen may be misleading.http://www.associated content.com/article/888479/brazilian_bombshellthe_biography_of.html?cat=38 ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

You can say what you want cause against a fact there isn't any arguments. Someone isn't a brazilian because they identify themselfs with the culture nor someone is a brazilian because they have a nickname of brazilian bombshell. I don't know why do you keep stating im using facts as my personal preference when its cleary you that are doing so. The fact is she had only portuguese citizenship, and so anyone that says the oposite are the ones that are trying to find methods to go against the true biography of carmen. I think the topic is very clear and there was already an unbiased editor that stated his opinion on the subject. Unless someone shows proff of otherwise the lede should be changed. Period Tacv (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I see you've been warned on your talk page about trying to claim other people for Portugal who are not identified with Portugal. You need to back off from this approach. You cannot cite any sources that identify Carmen with Portugal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I hate to point this out but, she was born in Portugal to a Portuguese mother and a Portuguese father, the blood that was flowing through her veins was pure Portuguese, she carried a Portuguese passport her whole life and although it must not have been easy, every time her passport was expiring she got herself another Portuguese passport. Off2riorob (talk) 00:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I begin to see where the confusion is. I direct your attention to wiktionary[2] in which it says that Brazilian as a noun indicates origin in Brazil; but Brazilian as an adjective (as it's used in this article) means "Of, from, or pertaining to Brazil, or the Brazilian people." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Either way WP:MOSBIO rule is very clear. It says the lede info should only refer the citizenship, not the noun or adjective has you said. Even if that rule didn't exist the correct expression would be portuguese-brazilian and not portuguese-born brazilian, but again the rule exist and so only citizenship should be refered. I can agree as a way to end the dispute to use the expression "portuguese-brazilian"even though it isn't the correct one. Tacv (talk) 01:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

ec..Well that is not clarified in the lede is it, I and probably plenty of people would read the lede as if she is a Brazilian by legal status which is untrue. I think it is wrong to reject her Portuguese-ness and it would be a simple solution to just remove the born and leave Portuguese Brazilian. Off2riorob (talk) 01:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It's perfectly clear as "Portugese-born Brazilian", except to those who want to claim her primarily for Portugal, which is false and misleading. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

And you're playing the same game with that Canadian-born singer Nelly Furtado. Your trying to claim people for Portugal doesn't make it so. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I find it quite curious that the same range of IPs and Tacv argue the same things here at the Nelly Furtado article. Note that I said something about that above and wasn't corrected. That's why I find this whole discussion to be an utter waste of time. How much you wanna bet an IP beginning with 81.84 will comment here? Pinkadelica^♣ 01:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

And probably call you a "liar" for showing them up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

No one is rejecting her Portuguese-ness so please stop with that. She was born in Portugual which is clear in the lede. However, she spent the majority of her life in Brazil and is heavily identified with the country (as Baseball Bugs pointed out, she was known as the "Brazilian" Bombshell") which the wording reflects. If there are reliable sources that clearly states she identified as Portuguese, please provide it. If not, we're having the same talk we had about two months ago which means this needs to go to mediation. I'm pretty sure I already said that's where this needs to go to begin with yet here we are, talking about this nonsense again. Oh, and if all this argument is based on what kind of passport she carried, rest assured that she also had a Brazilian passport which she received in 1953. Pinkadelica^♣ 01:20, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, she requested it in 1948. Brazil balked at issuing one. Given that kind of red tape, maybe trying to become a citizen would have been a waste of her time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Very strange, so she had a Brazilian passport, I don't quite get that, so she was a Brazilian citizen? the details of this Brazilian citizenship request and any details should go in the article. Off2riorob (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about that, but p.191 of that Google Books entry indicates that she considered herself Brazilian, and it also pretty well addresses the fact tags you posted. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes that page does seem to cover them a fair bit although the first part is about the song and it goes on to say that this is an issue she struggled with her whole life. Off2riorob (talk) 02:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

First Is that source reliable?

Second The source doesn't speak about citizenship but passport. Actually having a "passport" isn't a proff of her brazilian citizenship since there are many types of passport and you don't really need to be brazilian to have a brazilian passport, same examples are the ones given to take track of migration or the famouse Laissez-Passer.

Third That information can only be seen in that book. Every other sources go against the fact she had brazilian citizenship and not portuguese one. examples: "... being a Portuguese who never gave up her passport" in http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/16/carmen.html; famouse Eurico de Barros wrote in Feb 2009 on the very respected Diário de Noticias "... Carmen Miranda the most famose portuguese ... never gave up her portuguese citizenship" in http://dn.sapo.pt/gente/perfis/interior.aspx?content_id=1141949 ... Many other sources state the same ...

Fourth In her website where we can read her official biography, http://carmen.miranda.nom.br/cm_bio.htm, no reference is made on her adquiring brazilian citizenship.

Fifth In no place in the book presented by pinkadelica there is a reference about her being brazilian or adquiring brazilian citizenship. And again references to the fact she identifies herself to the brazilian culture and so on isn't prof she was brazilian. All the evidence points to the fact she was only portuguese and not both, since that was impossible in those days. But even if it was that does't change anything, the portuguese-brazilian expression continues to be the correct one and not portuguese-born brazilian. Tacv (talk) 02:20, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"Brazilian", used as an adjective as in this article, means "of or pertaining to Brazil". Hence, she was not "a" Brazilian, but she was Brazilian. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The point being, you don't have to be a Brazilian citizen to be considered Brazilian. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you say but you have to understand that in the intro of articles only citizenship should be refered, thats a wikipedia rule not mine. And as i already stated i can agree with the expression "portuguese brazilian", i dont know why do you want to keep going with a discussion that can be resolved so easily. Its clear that she can't be considered a brazilian citizen since there isn't sources stating so and the ones that exist state the oposite that she was a portuguese citizen . So i think an agreement on "portuguese brazilian" is a simple way to end this discussion Tacv (talk) 02:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The intro should not mislead people, and it already states the facts plainly. To further identify her with Portugal than it already does in the intro, would be misleading. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Misleading is not to state she had portuguese citizenship, misleading is to state she had brazilian citizenship cause thats false. You do not present verifiable sources that defend what you say and so i will not give more credit to what you write until you do. You cleary stating that we should defend a lie on wikipedia just to fulfill personal opinions and tastes. Not giving credit to sources and prefer to defend personal views just shows the lack of editorialship around here. I rest my case Tacv (talk) 02:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Nowhere in the article does it say she had Brazilian citizenship. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

You know what Bugs, you've been around long enough to know this is never going to end. Even in the face of a reliable source, there's still unfounded accusations of bias and other (forgive me) bullshit. We cannot and should not have to defend this stupid lede every few months. There's been no reliable sources presented to support the change of wording and as we're all aware, this is more of a personal issue than anything else. If Tacv or his numerous IPs are so very interested in Wikipedia rules, they can follow the proper dispute resolution steps and open a mediation case. I mean, we do want to follow Wikipedia rules now don't we? Pinkadelica^♣ 03:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's an endless loop. And you left out that he called us liars. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Oops...I did forget about that. You know how it is when you lie, you tend to forget things ;) Pinkadelica^♣ 04:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I had this all fixed up, using http://carmen.miranda.nom.br/cm_disco.htm as my source. However I kept tripping a 'false positive non constructive edit' and lost 1929 to 1934. Not doing it again. Someone else can do it. And make it look pretty. This is good enough for now.--75.51.191.154 (talk) 10:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)