Talk:Battle of Crete

Gavin Merrick Long writes on p. 210:

Meanwhile, on the 3rd May, Churchill had followed Freyberg’s message to the New Zealand Government with one of his own to the New Zealand Prime Minister, Mr Fraser, then in Cairo, in which he said that every effort would be made to re-equip the New Zealand Division, particularly with artillery "in which General Wavell is already strong". From New Zealand, the acting Prime Minister cabled to Freyberg on the 4th that his government had made urgent representations to the United Kingdom Government on the lines he had indicated. Next day Freyberg sent a cable to Churchill in the course of which he said that he was “not in the least anxious about an airborne attack" [...] Freyberg sent a message to Wavell that day urging that about 10,000 men who were without arms “and with little or no employment other than getting into trouble with the civil population” should be evacuated.

This was the situation on 4th May, and most of these "unwanted" have been evacuated by the start of the Battle of Crete. Long goes on, p. 213: As the weeks passed and air attacks on Suda Bay and shipping increased, it became evident that it would not be possible to remove all the unwanted troops who had arrived from Greece. Of these some 3,200 British (including Palestinians and Cypriots), 2,500 Australians and 1,300 New Zealanders were sent on to Egypt; by 17th May the garrison included about 15,000 British, 7,750 New Zealanders, 6,500 Australians, and 10,200 Greeks. Dircovic (talk) 12:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Name the 8 cruisers which were sunk. I've only tagged one section of the most recent round of amendments to the casualties section, but I suspect the others might require the same level of scrutiny. A 65 year old primary (?) source which doesn't appear to have been peer reviewed is not really reliable for something like this. Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:52, 19 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I was not aware that scientific papers and historical studies from the Air Force Historical Research Agency do not hold up well under close scrutiny. The source in question is apparent reliable enough for a MMAS degree, see German Airlift During the Battle of Crete p.97. Any source I have recently added, is fairly well referenced and pdf-linked. Most of these numbers (human losses) are simply in accordance to the sources listed in the aftermath section. If you do have other sources to add, please do so. Thanks Dircovic (talk) 00:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm dubious of the Royal navy losses quoted especially as the RN did not have Torpedo Boats in WW2 (unless they are referring to small Motor Torpedo Boats). Looking at the microfilm document quoted as a source it cites these figures to W.Gaul p14 Lyndaship (talk) 12:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

It seems there's a lot of conflicting data about exact British Naval losses. David A. Thomas, Crete 1941: The Battle at Sea list 3 CAs, 8 DDs and 2 LCs as sunk, 3 BBs, 1 CV, 7 CAs, 9 DDs and 2 assault ships as damaged; total 13 ships sunk, 22 damaged. Naval History Homepage list during the period of 20 May to 2 June, 4 CAs, 8 DDs, 1 Sloop (Grimsby Class), 1 Motor launch, 2 LCs and 5 PTs as sunk; total 21 ships sunk. However, I did not include 2 Whaler, 1 Drifter and 1 Trawler, even though some were converted or modified. In case of the Trawler, it was apparently used for anti-submarine warfare or as minesweeper; but detailed information is lacking, otherwise the British losses stood at 24 ships sunk. It also appears that these authors have a different understanding or system of classification, which might explain that blatant discrepancy. Dircovic (talk) 12:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

There might be discrepancies over the definition of small craft, but large ships like cruisers are not easy to confuse, hence my challenge to identify the 8 cruisers that were supposedly sunk around Crete. If the source can't correctly assess something that simple then it shouldn't be used to validate figures for all the other services involved. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Alright, what's your objection to the losses listed on the Naval History website? Dircovic (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

The scientific papers and historical studies from the Air Force Historical Research Agency are often personal memoirs of German officers, written after WW2 at the behest of the US Government and as such, they provide much insight into what the Germans were thinking at the time the events described transpired, but they are not historically accurate documents, in any strict sense, because they are one sided recollections of past events from the German POV.Damwiki1 (talk) 16:50, 20 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Please add comments at the bottom of this section. Comments should appear in chronological order. Damwiki1 (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

User:Damwiki1 your level 1 indents and the content suggested you were responding to either my OP or the response (i.e. questioning the source, not the indented fork on ship classes). In any case, both threads have come back to the same place. The Naval History website that User:Dircovic has cited is generally comprehensive, but it's still a tertiary collection so if I use it I normally cross-check and add an extra reference from a reliable secondary source. In this case the numbers sound more likely - twelve fleet ships (4 cruisers, 8 destroyers) and a number of auxiliaries (2 minesweepers and assorted minor craft). The fact it names the vessels allows us to actually check the detail, unlike the source that was being used. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

I just have undone Damwiki1s revert, because it would not only add back Bob Carruthers as a "credible" source and author (which he's not) but also remove the improvements made to the infobox and newer added sources. Dircovic (talk) 23:36, 21 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Wiki-Ed: I've now added some of the ships sunk listed on that website, improvements and or additional sources are welcome. Dircovic (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Are there any objections to the reference of David A. Thomas above? Dircovic (talk) 00:55, 20 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

For it to be a reliable source I think you need to from the actual source you want to use (i.e. the book), not a website which is quoting from that book. Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:15, 20 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

G'day, I think you are setting the bar a tad bit to high. I sincerely doubt that the National Museum of the Royal New Zealand Navy would knowingly and willfully falsify information. However, i'll take a look at the local library as the book is available, per WorldCat. Dircovic (talk) 11:33, 6 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

The nearest a Grimsby-class sloop came to being sunk in relation to Crete was Grimsby and Parramatta both sunk off of Tobruk.

The disputed figures referred to above appear to be the RN/RAN losses for the whole Mediterranean theatre 1940-45. The only battleship lost was HMS Barham which was sunk by torpedo, both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant were sunk while in harbour and were subsequently re-floated, and so presumably weren't 'lost'; the carriers lost were HMS Eagle and HMS Ark Royal.

Most of the losses would have occurred due to U-boat and air attack on the convoy operations sent to supply Malta and Alexandria.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.55.42 (talk) 14:01, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The aforementioned losses (publicated by HMSO in 1947) are not for the "whole Mediterranean theatre 1940-45" as you put it, but exactly for the period of 20 May to 2 June 1941. Dircovic (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Salus Patria Suprema Lex28regiment (talk) 06:43, 13 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Do you have any suggestions for improving the article? Are there any sources you want to include? Bellowhead678 (talk) 09:22, 13 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

I do actually. Would be historically correct to include details about the Royal Greek Gendarmerie's forces and cadett schools's participation in the battle, also on guarding and safe evacuation of King George. I am going to add sourses as soon as possible.Thanks for your time.28regiment (talk) 10:43, 13 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

User:Bellowhead678 check these if you please Royal Gendarmerie]] (a battalion-sized force 1.000 men^[1]); the Heraklion Garrison Battalion, a defence unit made up mostly of transport and supply personnel; and remnants of the 12th and 20th Greek Divisions, which had also escaped from the mainland to Crete and were organised under British command. Cadetsof the Royal Gendarmerie academy(1535 cadets and 41 officers, transfered to Crete on Marche 1941^[2])28regiment (talk) 17:12, 14 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I'm away from my laptop at the minute, but will check it out when I get back. Bellowhead678 (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

User:Hohum

• there wasn't such a force since 1912, Greek Royal Gendarmerie was the police force all over Greece by 1941, also King's personal Guard.
• Add sourses are from Gendamerie Headquarters and Greek Army Directorate of History.

Glad to inform you further, if you wish.28regiment (talk) 17:02, 14 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

The sources aren't WP:VERIFIABLE - I can't find traces of them on Worldcat or anywhere else. The text additions were of poor grammar, style, and had typos. If the Cretan Gendarmerie had been absorbed, surely the link should go to Hellenic Gendarmerie (which is rather sparse on detail compared to the Cretan article. (Hohum ^@) 19:22, 14 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

There was the Cretan Militia, until Crete's union to mother land Greece on 1913.Then, until 1984, Hellenic Royal Gendarmerie took over as police force of all Greece except Athens and Thessaloniki. On March 1941 Gendarmerie have been ordered to forme militia units to defend the island against possible invasion28regiment (talk) 14:23, 15 September 2019 (UTC).Reply

Greek Royal Gendarmerie was part of Army Forces until 1914, considered ever since to be an indepented police force, also acting as military police in war time. Wehrmacht knew that, so Gendarmerie have had not suffered German atrocities like civilians of Crete had. Just some officers been taken as POW to Germany, commander in chieff of Crete Gentarmerie Division and his driver among them, never came back.28regiment (talk) 07:50, 22 September 2019 (UTC)Reply