Commons:Deletion requests/NASA FIRMS

Most of the high-resolution satellite imagery files named NASA FIRMS 2024-*.png and uploaded by User:Lklundin are not created by NASA (120+ files from the Category:FIRMS imagery). Those are screenshots of Europe and Asia from the FIRMS map layer called "Blue Marble" provided and copyrighted by Esri. FIRMS website does not currently provide any free-licenced satellite imagery layers.

Nyuhn (talk) 01:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to uploading screenshots of the NASA FIRMS satellite imagery and in the process of writing en:Fire Information for Resource Management System (FIRMS) I did some due diligence to ensure that we could use the screenshots. But alas, I did not discover the information on Esri. So while this is unfortunate, I thank you for finding this. As such, I can only agree with the deletion request and can only add that I acted in good faith. Lklundin (talk) 08:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS. The oldest image in the category is File:2020 Cordoba NASA FIRMS.jpg. It is uploaded by Flipwared (and gave me the idea to upload more FIRMS screenshots, hence the identical "Author" information on all my uploads). Another image in the category File:NASA FIRMS 2024-10-01 Bolivia fires and hotspots.jpg is uploaded by Ingaviano. I believe I uploaded the remainder. Lklundin (talk) 08:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I took a second look at this. The template {{PD-USGov-NASA}} states 'NASA copyright policy states that "NASA material is not protected by copyright unless noted"'. The web-page where NASA distributes the imagery from FIRMS has at its bottom a link to a FAQ (at earthdata.nasa.gov) with the question: "Are there any restrictions on using data or imagery from FIRMS?" (my italic) with this answer: "NASA supports an open data policy and we encourage the appropriate use of data and graphics from FIRMS; when doing so, please take a moment to make sure you get the correct citation—see the Citation Policy. Please also read the LANCE Disclaimer and the About FIRMS web page" (The FAQ answer contains four links that I have inserted here, the first and last leads to 404s). The answer including the links about citation and disclaimers does mention any third party copyright holders. Additionally, searching earthdata.nasa.gov for the phrase "open data policy" (of the 404-link) leads to this page: Data and Information Policy that also does not mention third party copyright holders nor places limits relevant to Wikimedia. So we have NASA's own statement, that there are no other copyright holders of the content of the FIRMS website together with their PD-disclaimer. This in combination means that the screenshots of FIRMS imagery can be re-distributed by Wikipedia like any other NASA graphics. Lklundin (talk) 19:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion requester's claim is not supported by the provided link. The above description quoted from the NASA-page includes a link to an external (i.e. non-NASA) page that contains (nearly) the same description. On that external page the description is placed together with information on a product that a company (Esri) provides (under a non-free license) for integration into mapping software. Per this information (and in accordance with NASA's FAQ answer), Esri is _not_ distributing any imagery via the FIRMS service. Although the following speculation is not required to absolve an end-user such as Wikimedia from responsibility, it is plausible that NASA has integrated a solution from Esri into their FIRMS service. In such a case this would per NASA's FAQ answer be under conditions that allows NASA to release into the Public Domain the resulting end product, i.e. the FIRMS service as it appears to the end-user. Lklundin (talk) 19:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further, the contested imagery is named Blue Marble. Blue Marble is in fact a NASA product released to the Public Domain and has as such its own Wikimedia category Category:Blue Marble Next Generation images. Incidentally, this imagery is created with the en:MODIS instruments (on board NASA-launched satellites), which are exactly some of the instruments providing data presented via the FIRMS service. Lklundin (talk) 20:09, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TL;DR The claim that a company "Esri" owns the FIRMS layer Blue Marble is a misunderstanding. The Blue Marble imagery is owned by NASA and has a such its own Category:Blue Marble Next Generation images. Lklundin (talk) 07:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FIRMS layer "Blue Marble" ≠ NASA's "Blue Marble" (2002) or "Blue Marble: Next Generations" (2004). Those NASA's image series created using MODIS satellite and have 1 km/pixel and 0.5 km/pixel resolution respectively [1]. Esri's layer WGS84 provides 1m/pixel resolution on those screenshots uploaded, which is 500 times better. MODIS' succesor VIIRS has 375m/pixel resolution and it's imagery is used on File:2020 Cordoba NASA FIRMS.jpg (as a separate FIRMS layer) and it is the only public-domain eligible screenshot in the category. Nyuhn (talk) 18:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is to determine whether Wikimedia could become liable for copyright infringement for distributing the static background "Blue Marble" from NASA's FIRMS service. So let me try to summarize:

• Inspired by the NASA photo en:The Blue Marble NASA releases (in about 2002) satellite imagery of Earth called "Blue Marble"
• In about 2004 NASA release am improved version called "Blue Marble: Next Generation"
• NASA integrates their "Blue Marble" satellite imagery into various services, notably en:NASA WorldWind
• NASA launches FIRMS, that offers "Blue Marble" satellite imagery as background
• Over time, the resolution of the "Blue Marble" satellite imagery improves, both at en:NASA WorldWind and at FIRMS

The claim of the DR is that for the FIRMS service the "Blue Marble" satellite imagery used to be but no longer is a NASA product, but now a product delivered via FIRMS from a private company (Esri) that gets no mention nor credit from NASA. This while on Esri's self-hosted and Esri-moderated user forum "Blue Marble" is referred to (in 2022) as NASA Blue marble. This should be the case while at the same time the en:NASA WorldWind service states (in a section with few inline citations) "All images and movies created with WorldWind using Blue Marble, Landsat, or USGS public domain data can be freely modified, re-distributed, and used on web sites, even for commercial purposes".

Frankly, this deletion request makes no sense and is suitable for preventing Wikimedia (and NASA) from delivering useful information to the public. Lklundin (talk) 10:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TL;DR On the NASA-website with the contested "imagery from FIRMS" NASA credits no one but themselves (incl. in the "imagery from FIRMS" FAQ) and as such the template {{PD-USGov-NASA}} applies to the "imagery from FIRMS". Lklundin (talk) 20:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While Wikimedia does not have to explain what role a non-credited third party (e.g. Esri) plays for NASA to offer their service, I will out of an abundance of caution mention that on 2023-01-31 NASA entered into an agreement with Esri], so Esri's software can be used to expand the access to NASA's data. Lklundin (talk) 11:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"private company that gets no mention from NASA"

There is a direct link to Esri-owned site from the FIRMS.

These images are not produced by NASA because no NASA's publicly available instrument have such a high resolution.

If the images are not owned by NASA, but other copyright-holder, Wikimedia should have a evedience of persmission from them and "NASA alone cannot unilaterally release commercial material into the public domain" as it has been previously stated by @Huntster here. Nyuhn (talk) 19:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The mentioned link does not mention any copyright claim by Esri to the Blue Marble static background, as explained above. And the existence of the link itself does not constitute a copyright claim. Even if the repeated assertion that NASA cannot technically produce this imagery should happen to be true (which is not established), then that does not prove that NASA does not have the right to distribute the imagery. That NASA does not have the copyright to the data they distribute via their website and service is not proven. This Deletion Request is a misunderstanding, as stated above. Lklundin (talk) 22:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except we cannot operate under an assumption of a free release. That's sort of a double negative. There's no misunderstanding: Esri is providing the background imagery and there's no evidence that it's being released under a free license. Quite the contrary. — Huntster (t @ c) 01:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We are not operating under any assumptions. The data is being distributed by NASA via their website (and with their logo, see above). NASA explicitly encourages the free use of these data via their FAQ, as stated above. We do have a statement from both NASA and Esri, that Esri is a software service provider for NASA. This however does not provide them with copyright to any data that NASA distributes. It is merely being assumed by the DR that Esri has the copyright, although this is stated nowhere. Lklundin (talk) 06:59, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find it notable, that the nominator of this DR (Nyuhn) now for the second time has nominated some of the contested images for Speedy Deletion (e.g. File:NASA FIRMS 2024-11-03 Kant.png), although their first nomination was undone (on my request). Their second nomination has now been undone not on my request, but by Yann. I feel that this behaviour by Nyuhn is disruptive to Wikimedia and Wikipedia and not helpful for processing this DR. Lklundin (talk) 10:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]