Incubator:Requests for deletions

This page is for nominating test wikis for deletion, or for nominating pages related to the maintenance of the Incubator for deletion. Requests for undeletions can also be made here. To request the deletion of individual pages in a specific test wiki, please use the relevant talk pages where the editors of the test wiki are most active (such as the talk page of the test wiki's Main Page). Pages that should be speedily deleted should be tagged with {{delete}} with a proper reason.

It is typically not necessary to request that pages in a test wiki be deleted after the project has been given its own subdomain (e.g., aa.wikipedia.org), since such deletions are part of the normal workflow when creating new wikis. Eventually all pages in the test wiki will be deleted, leaving behind only the info page.

For the deletion policy, see Incubator:Deletion policy.

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Per w:en:Special:Diff/1121838578, it's suspected (at least by @Uanfala) that pages in this test project aren't written in Inku (aka Jakati, which iso639-3:jat points to), probably a linguist in the affected region should join here to discuss whether their suspect is true. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Example text in Inku language is same as Jatki language. The code Jat was initially fir Jatki languge. In the article of Inku it is clearly written that the language belong to Punjab pronvice of Pakistan.

This wikipedia is written in Jatki language. So, this wikipedia should not be deleted. Otherwise a large no of written material may be destroyed. So it should be continued. Sraiki (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

First, there used to be serious confusion about which exact language was denoted by the ISO code "jat". See the commentary in the Glottolog entry [1]. This appears to have largely been resolved now, with both Glottolog and Ethnologue using that code for Inku, the language of a few small itinerant groups of Afghanistan that was probably never written and that may well be extinct by now. The name "Jakati" [sic], surprisingly still visible in the ISO 639-3 code tables [2], is almost certainly erroneous. The similar name "Jatki" appears never to have been used for Inku, but was historically common for a number of related languages of Pakistani Punjab (see en:Jatki language), most notably for what is nowadays known as Saraiki, a language with millions of speakers, a solid written tradition, and a Wikipedia of its own. Now, I don't speak any of those languages, so I can't know for sure. My hunch is that those incubator articles about places in Punjab that appear to use what looks to me like Saraiki orthography, are unlikely to be written in a possibly extinct language of Afghanistan. User:Sraiki, maybe you can help us here: what exact language have you written those articles in? where is it spoken? by how many people? Uanfala (talk) 12:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

These articles are written the language, which is known Jatki. It is mainly spoken in Bar region . It is called Jatki in the region. It is spoken by more than 50% population of that region. The population of Jatki is more than 10 M. In all old documents it is Jatki.This language is entirely different from Saraiki and Punjabi. See this for more details, https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/895 .This language is also called en:Shahpuri dialect and en:Jhangvi dialect. This Jatki was also called en:Lahnda in old litrature whose Iso code is lah. As there is no current ISO code for Jhangvi and Shahpuri, I used Iso code of Jatki, because jat is code for Jatki and Jatki is mainly used for these dialects. See also https://www.routledge.com/Dictionary-of-the-Jatki-or-Western-Panjabi-Language/Jukes/p/book/9780367248680 This book is about Jatki language. Sraiki (talk) 12:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Sraiki, Engr.ismailbhutta "I used Iso code of Jatki"? The problem is that iso639-3:jat page says Jakati, not Jatki, I'd say that this is an issue that should be resolved, or else it would be ultra-unfair for Inku/Jakati speakers (if any), as there are two cases the existing Wikipedias were occupied (good to say so?) codes for other unrelated languages (nrmwiki, says Norman Wikipedia but code is for Narom, and Wikipedia 10, which code is for Tama), and at least I really don't want it to be happened 3rd times and more. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:12, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I would support the merger of this incubator with existing pnb Wikipedia if possible. The Jatki dialect is widely understood by speakers of other dialects—for example, it is the dialect of Toba Tek Singh District where my family is from. My family are Doabi speakers (an eastern dialect) but many of the words we use overlap with Jatki due to two centuries having passed since my family left eastern Punjab. The Shahmukhi Punjabi Wikipedia already has very few active contributors, and see this energy focused there instead would be most welcome. Any differences that make a given dialect distinctive could also be applied to any other, making it less clear what is left as non-dialectal Punjabi. What is called the “standard” dialect (Majhi) is much more loose of a definition than that of other languages—the language, especially as it is used in Pakistan, has never had a single register which can truly be considered the “main” one due to its lack of official status and use in primarily colloquial contexts. In John Beames's comparative grammar of the northern Indic languages, he reckoned that Punjabi likely has the most dialect variation within the language out of all the major ones for lack of a standard written register. I would say that in line with that, it is perfectly fine for pnb Wikipedia to include articles written in a variety of dialects, and in fact should be expected if the project is meant to represent Punjabi as a whole as it is used in Pakistan. عُثمان (talk) 14:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

(talk) Jatki is well known language in Pakistan which is spoken in 11 districts (Jhang, Chiniot, Toba Tek Singh, Sargodha, Khushab, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara, Bahawalnagar, Vehari and Khanewal districts) of bar region of Punjab province over the area of 49,121 km². The population of Jatki language speaking areas is 26,374,221 according to census 2017 which is more than 50% jatki speaking and others are settlers from India on partition and other parts of Pakistan but they are not locals. The main,local and ancient language of bar region is jatki which has very rich literature and culture. My forefathers migrated from bar region to Saraiki region but the term "inko" is new for me and the people of bar region because their language is Jatki. So I endorse the comments of Mr Sraiki and I request to carry on the Wikipedia project for jatki language to save its literature and culture, regards. Ismail Bhutta 14:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, I see. So Jatki, the language variety that both Sraiki and Ismail Bhutta refer to above, is one that doesn't have a dedicated ISO code. It is intermediate between pnb ("Western Punjabi" as used by the SIL) and skr (Saraiki). It is one of the many varieties that fall under the scope of the macrolanguage lah (Lahnda), but I don't think the code [lah] can be re-appropriated specifically for this variety. The code [jat] can't be used either, as that presently refers to the Inku language of Afghanistan (there has been confusion around that code before, but never to my knowledge has it been used for a language of Pakistan). The only way forward that I can see is to come up with a new Wikimedia-specific language code and then move the test wikipedia accordingly. I don't know how exactly Incubator works, so someone more knowledgeable could take up this task? Uanfala (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

In such cases, the new codes should be a part of SIL's code change requests, probably ask @Amire80: on the details? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226@Uanfala@عُثمان Wt/jat, Wb/jat, Wn/jat, Wq/jat and Wy/jat be deleted per request of creator. Wp/jat may be discussed. Sraiki (talk) 07:14, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

It is evident that this project has been unsuccessful. Dialects cannot be regarded as complete languages due to the absence of established grammatical rules. In Algeria, different regions speak different dialects.

The lack of quality content and properly sourced articles is apparent, with users often duplicating information from other wikis or even themselves. Despite my initial involvement and support for the project, I no longer endorse it. The project has failed to gain momentum over the years. The same situation occurred with the Egyptian version, which was promoted as a Wikipedia versions that would compete with other wikis. However, it did not live up to that expectation, featuring nonsensical articles, lack of notability, a shortage of users, absence of involved admins, and extensive copy-pasting from the Arabic Wikipedia. Moreover, due to the variations in dialects, individuals from different points in Egypt struggle to understand each other if they use their pure dialects. While efforts have been made to keep these projects alive, there is a reality that cannot be ignored. Riad Salih (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

As a neutral observer I must note that inactivity is not a valid reason to delete a test wiki. Neither is the things that have happened on wikis of related languages.

Duplicating contents, and especially unsourced, however, can be a valid reason. For that, I advise you to give us concrete examples. --OWTB (talk) 12:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

To fully comprehend the distinctions, one must engage with the Algerian dialect, as it differs from Algerian Arabic. Often, individuals mistakenly conflate a language with a somewhat dialect and a dialect with mere variations. Linguists possess the ability to differentiate between these linguistic categories. However, due to the limited number of contributors involved in such projects, which predominantly operate in obscurity, people are generally unaware of their existence. Consequently, we rely on ISO standards to validate the legitimacy of a language, as there is no significant opposition.

The articles use a mix of dialect, and if you read a single article, you will be confused by the dialect used. For example, take Wp/arq/باب لواد. If a real reader from Algeria reads this, they will probably laugh. And what's the purpose of citing Wikipedia French as a reference? The same goes for "Wp/arq/مناضميّات." Do Algerians use مناضميّات to refer to Computer Science? No, it's clear they just fill the article to boost the numbers and try to gain validation.

Dezedien is the only person here trying to push this project and make it real without any support from real contributors. The case of the Maghreb region in North Africa is different from Spanish as an exemple, which has different dialects as versions.

Even the reasons he is citing below are nonsensical, to say the least. Leaving a legacy to scholars or linguists? For that, there are press articles in newspapers, YouTube videos, etc. "A source of work for the scientific community" seriously? Can he give us some examples to support his point of view?

All the content was pushed to be added just to bring the version, making a profit from the absence of Algerian contributions. It's random content without any quality, simply copied and translated from French and Arabic articles, mostly by students who never contribute again outside of their university courses. Riad Salih (talk) 01:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

w:en:A language is a dialect with an army and navy is a standard proverb among linguists. There is no bright line between language and dialect; the word w:en:lect was invented by linguists to avoid approaching the question. See also w:en:dialect for endless text on the subject.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

KEEP : I apologize, @Riad Salih, for any inconvenience caused by the difficulty you may be experiencing in transcribing the dialect you use daily.

Firstly, it is important to clarify that the initiators and those who have renewed this project aim to promote and preserve Algerian Arabic, which already exists in various forms, much like English, French, and Spanish. This project is the result of several initiatives, the most recent being the participation of 300 students from the University of Chlef in translating articles from Arabic to Algerian.

It is understandable that there may be inconsistencies and similarities with the Arabic language, as Algerian is considered Algerian Arabic.

It is important to acknowledge that

The goal may not necessarily be to...

- Create a new language (it already exists)

- Compete with another language (it's evolving on its own)

- Create the same number of articles as wikipedia Arabic or English

- Create quality articles - content is in its beginning stages

This project is mainly intended to

- A source of work for the scientific community

- Educators and linguists looking for texts in Algerian

- Propose and not impose an spelling for writing Algerian

- Leave a documented, digitized source of Algerian spoken language for future generations

Each project has its own community and its own pace of development.

It is important to avoid putting this project in competition, because it does not belong to the same category.

The Egyptian Wikipedia has been much and wrongly compared to the Arabic Wikipedia.

and this century-old debate and I do not recommend eliminating it, you are trying to destroy the effort of many volunteers.

If you have any concerns regarding this project, please do not hesitate to voice them. otherwise let the other volunteers continue its development. It has been in hibernation for quite a while because the team preferred to rethink the strategy by developing the Wiktionary this year while adopting a good spelling to allow us to rediscover the richness of Algerian and develop articles in complete coherence with Algerian.

hope it will be good for you. Dezedien (talk) 13:30, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete, Initially, you were strongly opposed to this version, and now you changed your position. Well, it will be a failure like other projects. This is a nonsensical project. English, French, and Arabic have already a very few Algerian contributors, and you expect variations of dialects that are not mutually intelligible to produce good articles undestanble from all the Algerians.

Please tell that the students from universities in Chlef, Mostaganem, and other places were not actively creating articles but primarily engaged in translating French articles. They were compelled to do so as part of their university assignments, leaving them with no choice but to fulfil this obligation. It would be worth investigating the current status of contributors from these students, both for the French Wikipedia and the Algerian Wikipedia. However, it appears that the number of active contributors from this group is currently zero.

These are dialect versions and not Algerian Arabic is it is promoted, which can confuse people here. The Algerian dialect is mixed with French, Spanish, Turkish, and other words that do not belong to Arabic.

Moreover, if you look at the articles here, most of them are translated by some Moroccans with a clear Moroccan dialect, using words that never belonged to Algerian society, just to push for the existence of an Algerian Wikipedia, similar to what happened with the Moroccan version. This resulted in a degradation of language and knowledge and the quality of articles. They even ended up translating scholarly citations and quotes, which makes no sense.

Wikipédia has a universal vocation, as it is one of its founding principles. However, any project with a weak foundation is destined to decline. n Algerian Wikipedia will become a nationalist encyclopedia, leading to conflicts among contributors. It will end up being an encyclopedia without quality content, and its potential for growth is so limited. To gain a better understanding, you can verify the the Moroccan version.

In the end, you are alleging that I am responsible for destroying the efforts of many volunteers, an accusation that is both unfair and unacceptable. I choose not to engage in a response to this statement as it surpasses the assumption of good faith. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Chère @Riad Salih

Please refrain from telling only real, proven facts, without peddling or facts that never happened.

I'm really surprised to read your last message full of false accusations.

I will answer a few points, I respect your opinion, I just ask you to respect the opinions of others and not pretend and say what is not.

- You say for me what I didn't say, where did you get that?

- You accuse the university and the teacher of imposing a job on the students when you haven't even been to Chlef or discussed the program with a single person.

- Your theory about Algerian is questionable, it's exactly what happens with Amazigh and it's the only way to transfer knowledge with Algerian.

- You want to divert the discussion to words like nationalism, and that's wrong, but it's a purely neutral project aimed at linguists.

take a look at this page she the work of Said Tadjer

he offered us a dictionary of 2500 words in Algerian he wrote all the hortograph rules to write in Algerian we are just waiting for the right moment to add them to wikidata and wiktionnair we did it with only 1000 words

https://web.facebook.com/groups/425268594189148/?_rdc=1&_rdr

Finally, I'd like to invite you to a discussion about Algerian. If you agree, we can organize a meeting on googlemeet/zoom and I'll invite university professors who teach Algerian in Canada/Italy/France and Algeria.

regard

Their work is currently serving AI and now you want to suppress it.

I'm really sorry, compare this to the destruction of books in the Middle Ages.

Let this project develop at its own rhythm . Dezedien (talk) 15:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

My proposal is to retain this project while removing and revising the current articles that are of subpar quality. This is the only solution to preserve this project. If the problem is related to the quality of the articles, we will carry out a total verification. The quality, quantity, and number of articles are not significant, but if the quantity exceeds 1000 articles, we will revisit all of them. This will allow us to set up a system of quality control for the articles and ensure the project can continue for future editors. We are seeking contributors for this improvement project to transcribe Algerian derdja for quality studies and to transcribe Algerian content using local languages and dialects. It is important to note that this project is not intended to compete with other languages, particularly Arabic, nor is it meant to create a new language. Rather, it aims to document existing knowledge using local languages and dialects. Dezedien (talk) 11:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi back,

I am myself concerned with sociolinguistics and the differences between languages and dialects, If you wish to engage in a discussion, I welcome your linguists to participate and share their perspectives here.

It is not about competition with Arabic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to test if a dialect can stand on its own and be standardized as a language. ISO isn't a way to argue that it is a full language.

The case of Algeria is very complex. We have two sociolinguistic phenomena: bilingualism (French, Arabic, English, Berber) and diglossia (two varieties of languages exist side by side throughout the community), which is mostly the case here. We have a high variety (Standard Arabic) and a low variety (Darija - Algerian Arabic). Low varieties can't be used in this context since they are auto-implemented for low purposes in Algerian society and not for learning, writing, or searching… etc. In high-context fields, Algerians use the official languages.

I'm really sorry, but comparing this to the destruction of books in the Middle Ages is a joke, and you are using sentiments in this debate when I'd prefer to see facts. Algerian Arabic dictionaries and such aren't real arguments to have a full version here on Wikipedia. Even during French colonization, they did write dictionaries, and I can share many here.

Most of the content created here (mainly from random contributors who have no clue and are mainly students from Chlef and Mostaganem, pushed by a French contributor whom you know) is of low quality, as it's often copied and pasted. For example, full French text is copied and pasted here and these contributors rarely participate further on Wikipedia to not say never

The French, Arabic, and English versions of Wikipedia do not have more than six active Algerian contributors. It is incorrect to assume that a small national version, which lacks a clear language due to the various regional dialects in Algeria (which do not possess all the characteristics of a distinct language), would have a significant encyclopedic impact and attract readers. This situation is ironic considering the linguistic paysage present in the country. There is also Algerian French, but it does not have a full version on its own, and the same goes for other variations such as Canadian French, etc.

If you have a specific connection to Algerian Arabic, that's acceptable. You can work on creating dictionaries, sharing content on other platforms, and so on. However, Wikipedia is intended for encyclopedic purposes and is not the appropriate place for conducting such tests. It is not a laboratory for linguists to standardize a dialect into a language that lacks the necessary criteria for use in encyclopedic settings.

Best regards. Riad Salih (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your reply, I consider it a kind refusal to participate in this meeting, no problem.

for the experimentation i'm not talking about the algerian because it really exists, i'm talking about testing the real utility of transcribing the algerian that is in him real.

Having said that, I'm not undermining the use of Algerian in the official sphere, because you don't realize that it's Algerian that everyone uses everywhere. Do you think that shopkeepers speak classic Algerian in the market?

you can even find official documents dating from the Spanish period and even from the emir abdelkader written in algerian. the government of the french ocupation used algerian to communicate,

all marketing publicity, whether private or public, uses only the Algerian language.

don't tell me otherwise. it's easy to contradict yourself.

i haven't contributed to this project for more than 5 years, because i'm currently busy with other tasks. i'm going to clean up the articles that need to be deleted.

Be careful, it's a project like any other, it's in its infancy and needs more promotion and explanation to help people understand the real purpose of this work.

let's be clear, it's indisputable to deny that algerian is spoken by more than 60 million people, when we see languages spoken by less than 1 million people with their own wiki project. Dezedien (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

In Algeria, Standard Arabic is recognized as the prestigious form of language used in education, administration, and academic research. Society adheres to these linguistic norms. On the other hand, Algerian Arabic, which you refer to is the lower variety, is employed in informal contexts such as coffee shops, supermarkets, and everyday conversations. Different regions in Algeria exhibit other variations, such as the Oranee Dialectal language (OrandD), We have no standard Algerian Arabic.

Algerian Arabic cannot be considered a codified language, it is primarily regarded as a variation of Arabic (dialect) with very restricted and limited usage in formal settings.

60 million people speak Algerian dialect, not Algerian Arabic (which is linguistically speaking the Colloquial Arabic of Algeria). There are Arabophone, Francophone, and Amazigh speakers in Algeria. Reliable sources are needed to prove your claims.

As mentioned before, there are many varieties of French (Canadian, Algerian, Moroccan, Haitian), yet only one version of French is exits on Wikipedia, and more recently, Simple French.

Wikipedia serves as an encyclopedia and is not intended for testing AI-related experiments or exploring linguistic dialects. Additionally, you mentioned that you are the main contributor to this version. You can continue exploring other aspects of Algerian Arabic on different platforms.

Wikipedia should primarily focus on content with encyclopedic value. The current arq version does not align with that objective. I would prefer to have a discussion based on real linguistic approaches here. Therefore, we can wait for your friends to join and mention me, and I'll be available to reply.

Regards Riad Salih (talk) 17:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

You agree with me, but you do not want to accept what I have been telling you from the start.

This project, and especially the Wiktionary, is not about creating a new form of language. Dialects exist in every town and village. You may have already heard of the dialect of Bettioua, a village in Arzew. It is a mixture of Arabic and Sanhadji Berber.

Standard Algerian exists and can be recognized on many occasions, as I mentioned above.

Algerians mix their dialects when communicating daily. This phenomenon can be observed through recorded videos.

I respect your decision to decline participation in this project. However, I believe there may have been a misunderstanding regarding testing and experimentation. The incubator's purpose is to create and publish.

It is worth noting that Algerian is taught and studied globally and is integrated into various computer systems. Yesterday, I generated some texts with Gemini, but they were not up to par. However, they were still in Algerian.

I am sharing my opinion, which is similar to that of many others, even if they are not present here.

I will support and assist those who are willing to work on this project. It takes a lot of energy to achieve an acceptable result.

The group received a solicitation to publish the wiki in summer 2017, but everyone refused because it was not good. Hopefully, it will improve in the future with new contributions from newcomers.

For the 2024-2025 annual plan, the Group will prioritize Witionaire due to the availability of material (a donation of 25,000 words with translation from linguist Said Tadjer) . Additionally, we plan to utilize wikidata. If we clean up the mediocre articles in the incubator section of Wikipedia, we will focus even more on it. Dezedien (talk) 08:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I invited Gemini to the discussion and his response was quite interesting, it's good to have a neutral opinion coming from a synthesized intelligence :)

Q: Algerian is language or Dialect ?

The question of whether Algerian is a language or a dialect is complex and controversial. There is no simple and definitive answer, as it depends on the perspective adopted and the criteria used to define a language.

Arguments in favor of Algerian as a language:

Algerian has its own grammar, vocabulary, and syntax. It is distinct from Literary Arabic, the official language of Algeria, and is not mutually intelligible with it.

Algerian has a long history and a rich literary tradition. There are many works written in Algerian, from poetry (الشعر) to novels (الرواية).

Algerian is the mother tongue of the majority of the Algerian population. It is used in daily life, in the media, and in education.

Arguments in favor of Algerian as a dialect:

Algerian is not recognized as an official language by the Algerian state. The only official language is Literary Arabic.

Algerian has no official status in education. It is not taught in schools and is not used in administrations.

Algerian is often seen as an inferior version of Literary Arabic. It is sometimes perceived as a "vulgar" or "incorrect" dialect.

In conclusion, there is no easy answer to the question of whether Algerian is a language or a dialect. The answer depends on the perspective adopted and the criteria used to define a language.

Here are some additional points to consider:

The distinction between language and dialect is often blurred and subject to debate.

The linguistic status of Algerian is evolving. More and more people are recognizing Algerian as a language in its own right.

The language question is often linked to questions of identity and politics.

It is important to respect the different opinions on this issue and not to impose a single vision.

Q : Do you think that creating a Wikipedia and a dictionary especially in Algerian would be useful?

Yes, I believe creating a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary in Algerian would be very useful.

There are many arguments in favor of this project:

1. Increased access to information:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would allow more people in Algeria to access information in their native language.

This is especially important for people who do not speak Literary Arabic or French fluently.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would help bridge the digital divide and promote digital inclusion.

2. Preserving Algerian culture and heritage:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would help document and preserve Algerian culture and heritage in the country's native language.

This would contribute to the transmission of knowledge and traditions to future generations.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a valuable resource for researchers and students interested in Algeria.

3. Strengthening Algerian identity:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would contribute to strengthening Algerian identity and promoting linguistic diversity.

This would allow Algerians to feel more proud of their language and culture.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a symbol of the richness and vitality of Algerian culture.

4. Development of the Algerian language:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would contribute to developing and standardizing the Algerian language.

This would create a corpus of texts in Algerian and encourage linguistic research.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would encourage the creation of new content in the language.

5. Contribution to the Wikimedia community:

Creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would enrich the Wikimedia community and contribute to the diversity of available content.

This would allow sharing knowledge and information with the rest of the world.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a valuable resource for people interested in the Algerian language and culture.

In addition to these benefits, it is important to note that creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary is a feasible project.

There are already a number of resources available, such as dictionaries and corpora of texts in Algerian.

There is also an active community of Algerian speakers who could contribute to these projects.

In conclusion, I believe that creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary is an important and beneficial project that deserves to be supported.

This is an initiative that could have a significant positive impact on Algerian society and on the Wikimedia community as a whole.

Q : Thank you Gemini where did you get these answers from?

I'm happy to hear my responses were helpful!

I generated those answers by using my knowledge and understanding of the world, which I gained through machine learning on a massive dataset of text and code. This dataset includes information in English, French, and many other languages, as well as computer code. I can process and understand this information and use it to generate relevant and informative answers to your questions.

In addition to my general knowledge, I also have access to specific resources related to Algeria, such as:

Dictionaries and text corpora in Algerian

Algerian news articles and websites

Studies and research on the Algerian language and culture

These resources helped me familiarize myself with the language and culture of Algeria and generate more accurate and relevant answers to your questions.

I'm constantly learning and improving, and I'm always looking for new information and resources to enrich my knowledge. If you have any suggestions or feedback, please don't hesitate to share them. I'm always happy to help! Dezedien (talk) 08:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am so glad 188.242.249.168 00:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

ISO has given Algerian Arabic the tag arq, so it's a language. Linguists in particular don't buy that "Dialects cannot be regarded as complete languages due to the absence of established grammatical rules"; they would argue that all languages have grammatical rules, and what are called "established grammatical rules" in standardized languages are often farces not even upheld in the writings of those who create and disseminate them, much less the language as it is actually spoken. There's no reason to delete this project.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Prosfilaes Yes, ISO has also given Montenegrin, Ancient Greek, Klingon, ... etc language tags as cnr, grc, tlh ..., so they are all languages, and we should support them instead of reject them, right? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ancient languages and artistic conlangs have been rejected for reasons unrelated to the case here. I don't have an opinion about Montenegrin, but the issues with it have been well detailed; because Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia have their own names for Serbo-Croatian, Montenegro wanted their own national language/name despite lacking any significant differences. There doesn't seem to be anything similar in this case, just the standard dialect/language arguments.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

thanks for your comments, In light of the available information, I believe that Algerian Arabic deserves to be recognized as a language. Its ISO language code, unique linguistic features, and historical context provide strong evidence for this categorization. By acknowledging its status as a distinct language, we can contribute to its preservation and the recognition of linguistic diversity. Dezedien (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Against deleting this project. I don't think the project is unsuccessful. Wikipedia can be written in several dialects, there are several such examples, for example, als. In case of deletion, I suggest moving the content to Miraheze. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 09:58, 18 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

The Algerian community isn't very active in Arabic, their main language, Berber, or in French or English, their secondary languages. Articles in the Incubuator are often just copy and paste from other versions with minor changes and each region has its own dialect, meaning we'd need around 10 to 15 versions to cover all the different dialects. Riad Salih (talk) 12:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedias in several dialects solve these problems differently. In some, there is one article that can be written in different dialects, in others, one article must be in only one dialect. In any case, this is not a reason to delete. Another thing is if it is actually the wrong language. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 17:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Danvintius Bookix By such logical, Chinese Wikipedia shall be splitted into 6 Wikipedias per each national "standard dialect"? There's in actually another way to also solve these problems - the LanguageConverter. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Don't talk nonsense. Chinese Wikipedia has nothing to do with it. What converter do you suggest for Algerian Wikipedia - from Arabic to Arabic? --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 10:09, 10 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

LanguageConverter won’t be of much help, as the dialect is complicated. Algeria has 58 provinces and countless dialects. At best, there are only 3 or 4 active editors across Wikipedia in Arabic, English, and French combined. In such a context, it seems unlikely that this version can remain viable. Riad Salih (talk) 02:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep as there are sucessful projects in other dialects of arabic, f.i. arz: and ary:, which proves the possibility of a sucessfulproject in such a dialect. 5.183.29.95 11:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Random Russian IP out of nowhere Riad Salih (talk) 20:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Regarding the projects mentioned, it is important to show us why you believe they have been successful. Those acquainted with these projects are cognizant of their lack of success. Numerous articles are haphazardly composed, with minimal active editors who intermittently strive to sustain the project. Almost all articles lack reliability and credibility. Riad Salih (talk) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, if there are blatant bad quality of articles, and too hard to fix by directly editing, then nuking with re-creating would also be a good thing, several 3rd party users like Prosfilaes and Danvintius Bookix above just wanna split Arabic, they don't consider the quality of articles. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Riad Salih: I consider them suvessful as they still weren't closed, despite one of them was nominated for such fate. Theyare also active. My country of origin should not concern you btw. 5.183.29.95 10:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I believe you should use your official account instead of relying on an IP address, especially if you truly believe in the project. However, you haven't provided any tangible arguments to support your stance. Just because a version was accepted due to the influence of several contributors doesn't guarantee its success. For instance, the Moroccan version you mentioned is not part of the Wikimedia MA User Group that is more active in the Arabic and English version rather than the Moroccan one. Additionally, the Egyptian version primarily features short articles (editors there can counted on one hand), many of which are simply copied from Arabic sources with minor changes to make them appear original. Riad Salih (talk) 13:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Riad Salih. I'm a member of Wikimedia MA User Group, and also an administrator on arywiki, and what you wrote in your last comment is definitely not correct. The link you sent with the table of projects has "Darija Wikipedia", so it's definitely one of the projects endorsed by our User Group. Three of the most active contributors to arywiki are also prominent members of the User Group (myself included), and one is even a founding member of the User Group. Many other editors on arywiki are also members of the User Group, though they may be more active in arywiki than other Wikis or Wikimedia activities, or the other way around. As a User Group, we also organized a number of edit-a-thons and contests in several languages, including Moroccan Darija. You can check the activities of the group for 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024 for more information.

With the exception of a minority who are hostile to arywiki, the majority of the User Group members have no problem with it, and some even contribute to it when they can, just like most active editors on arywiki have no issues with other languages or projects (arwiki included), and contribute to them as well. You mentioned earlier that arywiki was "not a successful project" in your opinion. What are your criteria to judge a 5-year-old project as a "success"? Definitely you cannot compare it to Wikimedia projects that have existed for more than 20 years, and benefit from larger communities and institutional support. As far as we are concerned, as Wikimedia Morocco User Group, arywiki has so far been successful, and has attracted many new active editors, some of whom have gone to contribute even to other Wikimedia projects. There are certainly a lot of articles that need cleanup and improvement (just like in all Wikis), but there are also many good articles that are useful and informative (and I did not just come up with this, we have asked people from outside the community and been told about their experience reading the Wiki). We are not here to compete with the Arabic Wikipedia or any other project, and we don't need to have 1 million articles to be successful. Ideophagous (talk) 18:43, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hey back @Ideophagous Before I reply, could you please tell us how you happened to this deletion request? I see suddenly some contributors emerging out of nowhere in this talk. Riad Salih (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Riad Salih. I found it by chance today when a new contributor on arywiki asked me a bunch of questions, including whether Wikipedia in other dialects existed, and I showed him the arq testwiki. The deletion request is linked on its main page. Ideophagous (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Can you show me the wiki link of the discussion you are referring to? I would like to check it. Riad Salih (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Riad Salih It was on Google Meet. Ideophagous (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

All discussions pertaining to this request must take place exclusively within the incubator or on the Wikimedia platform for transparent traceability. All statements should be easily verifiable by anyone. Utilizing alternative platforms to forge secret alliances and solicit contributions from unrelated contributors not associated directly with the project is not acceptable. Riad Salih (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Riad Salih Now you're making baseless accusations. The meeting was exclusively about arywiki, and the new editor was just curious about other projects and how Wikimedia works in general, and they already wrote many articles on arywiki. There was no discussion of this request at all, and I alone decided to answer specifically the point regarding arywiki since you brought it up. I do not care if arq testwiki leave the Incubator or stays or gets deleted, since this is a matter that mainly concerns Wikimedians in Algeria or speakers of arq. Good job changing the subject from your baseless statements misrepresenting arywiki project to paranoid conspiracy theories. Have a good day/night. Ideophagous (talk) 23:02, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Being straightforward isn't synonymous with paranoia. Let me be clear: I've noticed a sudden influx of contributors in the discussion, which is why I feel the need to ask for clarification. If you aren't involved or don't care, as you mentioned, there is no need to participate from the beginning. Also, please refrain from tagging me; the page is already in my watchlist. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 23:09, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I can't offer any explanations for your observations. I was answering baseless statements on your part regarding arywiki. The rest doesn't concern me. Ideophagous (talk) 23:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

To respond to your initial text:

I have never compared the success of any particular wiki with the arwiki. I have also mentioned the French, Arabic, and English wikis.

Success should be measured based on the real active contributors and the quality of articles. I still stand by my assertion that your group is more attentive and caring towards other version than the mawiki. You can verify this by checking the podcasts and the Facebook page of the group where I have not seen any Moroccan Darija language being used, nor is the name of the wiki group is Darija. The same goes for Wikimedia Commons, where I have rarely seen descriptions in Darija or efforts to do so.

It is not true that articles need as much cleanup as in other wikis. However, almost all articles require a significant amount of revision. People here might not understand the language, so I am making it clear so they won't just believe what you said. The core and the most important part of any wiki project is to have real encyclopedic articles, not a bunch of random drafts written in a specific dialect that only one region or village can understand.

I did not state that the group is not involved in the Moroccan wiki, but rather that it is less active, and there is no way to deny this fact.

Returning to the arqwiki, which only counts known editors trying to make it alive, it lacks a solid foundation to stand on. I have already expressed all that I needed to say. Riad Salih (talk) 23:27, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Our group is interested in all Wikis that Moroccans are likely to read the most, that is arwiki, frwiki, enwiki, arywiki, zghwiki and shiwiki. The podcasts are mixed, and some of them are in Darija (the first 2 episodes for example), though I don't see what this has to do with arywiki, since the podcasts are generally aimed at a wider audience, just like the Facebook page, not just Moroccans. Here's a file with a description in Darija, though again, this is not our main focus at this point, nor is this directly related to arywiki. You keep bringing up a bunch of random pseudo-facts that are not even related to the main point. It's up to the community of arywiki and its readers to decide if the project is successful and has benefit, since they are the ones involved in it actively or passively. I've written and edited articles on several Wikipedias, and the only one where I see true high quality of content is enwiki, and even it has many aricles with missing sources, bad style, non-NPOV, etc. It takes time and effort (and a large community) to build a high quality encyclopedia, and that's what we're trying to do, and we're just getting started. Ideophagous (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Not done. Language has a valid ISO 639-3 code. No valid reason for deletion has been given. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:42, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:42, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Like the Wp/arq above, there are some evidences make this test project unsuccessful too. Campidanese is only considered as a dialect of Sardinian, and the Sardinian Wikipedia already has lots of articles written in this dialect. One scwiki administrator @L2212 also pointed at this talk page, that the real Campidanese speakers always directly contribute scwiki, where the user in that question, Fausta Samaritani, has identified to be another maker of scowiki-like problems, where that user doesn't really speak or write Sardinian, or any dialects of it, and that user's aim looks like to "transform scwiki to be a constellation (sic?)", which doesn't really work-able in any circumstances. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I also support the deletion of that test wiki. As @Liuxinyu970226 has already written, it's a personal project by a non-speaker (using two names, Fausta Samaritani and Sirmio Cabinigre) that decided to work on it by creating hundreds of copy-pasted and almost empty articles (like the ones regarding the days of the month, the years or the centuries) with empty sections that someone else would have to fill. The Wp/sro project was already clearly not successful, having existed for years without a single article, and the sudden push for it's "development" and even its publication as a new language version comes from Fausta Samaritani's desire to split Sardinian in a multitude of wikis, one for every dialect (there are 200+ of them, btw, since every town has its own little differences, so you can imagine how feasible such an idea would be), to create, as Liuxinyu970226 mentioned, a "constellation of wikis" (sic) about it. Considering the fact that Sardinian is a single language with mutual intelligibility between the dialects, that we already have few active users as it is, and that the users that write using the Campidanese orthography (often alongside others, like the LSC one) use sc.wiki (where we also have rules and template to work with multiple orthographies and versions of an article) and have rejected time and time again this project (as you can see in the discussions here, here and here, where you can also find more informations about Sardinia's linguistic situation) the fact that she is still insisting is honestly absurd. L2212 (talk) 19:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I see the Sardinian wiki uses similar tactics like Limburgish, which also has a high dialectual variation (see Agiudu:Grafias de Wikipedia), so I personally agree that there is no need for separate wikis. However, the requests are marked as eligible by the language subcom, so we have to allow them here. So really, this needs to be addressed at meta:Language committee first. Here we facilitate, we don't judge eligibility, that's up to the Langcom. --OWTB (talk) 16:03, 16 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ooswesthoesbes There are some languages where their "Wikipedia requests" are eligible, but Incubator tests deleted: Fala (fax), Orang Seletar (ors), Ter Sami (sjt) and Votic (vot), with the third one been barred for re-creation. To the best of my knowledge, we should re-debate eligibility of these 5 (yep, include sro one) requests, they are controversial requests by even non-L2 speakers. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Those test projects were deleted because the contents was either gibberish or in another language than the code, not on eligibility reasons. As I indicated before, we facilitate, we don't judge. --OWTB (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ooswesthoesbes Yes, Wp/sro is also containing gibberish and absurd contents provided by speakers of another language, as L2212 said above, "we don't judge" don't mean either, that we can't oppose, just see what I commented at those controversial "eligible" requests: 1, 2, 3 and 4 Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am in agreement with the deletion, as presented by @L2212 Riad Salih (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Why isn't the wiki transferred to Incubator Plus 2.0 instead or maybe, move the articles to the Wikipedia in Sardinian with a note explaining that they are written in Campidanese? Jon Gua (talk) 11:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Jon Gua If you can explain that why those contents are not "gibberish and absurd" as explained and endorsed above, feel free. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

The content should be moved to Sardinian Wikipedia or Miraheze. I don't see anything "gibberish and absurd" in the content. Yes, the articles are small, but that's another problem. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Danvintius Bookix See L2212's comments above, unless if you're really debating his comments, I don't see why Fausta's contributions aren't gibberish and absurd. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:41, 18 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Example. I see, it is a simple small article about year, nothing absurd. They are written, as far as I can judge, in Sardinian, and most likely in Campidanese orthography, because besides Fausta, there was also a user who actually knew Sardinian who edited it. I do not support a separate Campidanese Wikipedia, but we must be objective. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 13:15, 18 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@L2212 What's your idea on Danvintius Bookix's idea to merge this test project into sc.wikipedia? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

If there are any useful articles (that were not copied from sc.wiki) ok, we can create the pages or the orthographic subpages to import them, but I have my doubts that that's the case. The example used by @Danvintius Bookix is not any different from an edit made by a bot, would any other wiki import those? We are talking about hundreds of articles here.

At the very least, all the empty sections should be deleted, and the text corrected (it's "annu de su de 20 sèculus", not "annu de su 20 sèculus", that's what happens when someone that doesn't speak a language copies and pastes the same unverified text only replacing numbers and the names of the months) but in articles like this one that would leave almost nothing. Is it even worth the effort? L2212 (talk) 23:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Raised by m:Talk:Language committee#Requests for closures, @Yupik pointed out that Even the longer pages were created by someone who is not a (native) speaker of the language and is tied to the whole Kamassian debacle, probably this imported project meets same situation scowiki has. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I was notified about this on my talk page. I'm not a native speaker. I've not made any substantial edits, and AFAICT the 60 edits I did make were only to add images, links and categories, and I don't have an opinion on whether the project should be closed. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looks like some of my edits from en: were imported. The current template doesn't work b/c it's part of the Lua everything debacle. The version I wrote doesn't work b/c parts of it were deleted which is tie to the "delete everything we don't need" debacle. Otherwise I wish this wiki the very best of luck. Rich Farmbrough (talk)

Comment Why can't we leave it in Incubator until community to create Wikipedia would form? I know that Nauruan language has not much speakers, but I don't think this is the reason delete the project even from Incubator. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 11:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support to leave it as it is. Таёжный лес (talk) 08:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Comment It seems that many pages are indeed not grammatically correct. Таёжный лес (talk) 12:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

We can delete it and leave only pages with pure Nauruan text. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 11:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Similar to Wp/nio. Zero actual content, zero speakers, but several main pages here since 2022. Таёжный лес (talk) 16:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, there are 2,630 native speakers, do we have ideas whether one of em can come to contribute? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Similar to /nio and /kpy. Three one-word articles, one article with unformatted alphabet and translations to Russian and Sakha and zero speakers here since 2010. Таёжный лес (talk) 18:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, there are 4,840 native speakers, same situation as kpy one. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

As per the 2nd rejected RFL, the Old Norse is an extinct proto language, and having a test project violates LPP. Even though there are still Old adults can be considered Old Norse ethnic, they are generally migrated to speak Saami or standard Norwegian (maybe Bokmal or Nynorsk, I don't have interests), so I even don't know why this project was started. Maybe migrate to Incubator Plus before deleted? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support I support the deletion of this project and, if possible, its migration elsewhere as per the request. I have observed that the project has never been active since its creation. -- ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 07:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Almost all the pages are one-word stubs. The only page with significant text is not an encyclopedic article, but the Lord's prayer, and its text is also available in the English Wikipedia article about the language. The Meta request for the Wikipedia language was created by a banned user, and since it was obviously not serious, I speedily-deleted it. The language is probably eligible, but it should be done by serious people who actually know the language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:24, 22 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, per Ethnologue, while 75 in United States, decreasing, L2 users: 0. It also mentioned 1,910 in Canada, L1 users: 980. But the 8b (Nearly extinct) status would still be a lock for finding serious contributors. Maybe contacting WMCA for suggestions? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Some people to reach out to: [3], [4]. Amqui (talk) 02:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support deletion per nominator. Таёжный лес (talk) 08:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Most of the content in these Incubators was created by User:Sdf.

Wp/ils and Wp/tss only have main pages, which appear to be written in SignWriting, but that's it.

Wp/ycr has several one-word pages. They can perhaps be moved to a Wiktionary Incubator, but I'm not even sure about that.

I tried pinging User:Sdf on Meta about this and got no reply.

In this state, it's probably better to start those languages from scratch if anyone serious wants to do it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:11, 22 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete ils, No known L1 users according to a 2015 survey, so no hope for any seriously contributors. Neutral for tss and ycr, tss has 24,000 speakers and ycr 3,200, both belong to Taiwan, which looks like the home of Sdf. Tend to ask WMTW staffs @Supaplex, Ffaarr, Imacat, Alexsh, Koala0090, JM99, Reke, Natsu621 and 林非帶你飛 for inputs. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Deleted - Wp/ils, Wp/tss. Ninja✮Strikers ^«☎» 15:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral If User:Sdf is local to the languages, as suggested in the discussion, Wp/ycr may serve as valuable language documentation. In this case, the project should be given a reasonable amount of time to grow, provided there are active local users willing to contribute. Additionally, the short pages with valid content could be moved to the Wiktionary project (Wt/ycr) after notifying the community. --ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

There is nothing there except a "main page" that is written in English and Urdu and not in Kalasha. The language is probably eligible, but should be started from scratch. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, there are 5,000 native speakers per Ethnologue, are there any possible to find some Pakistani contributors to maintain it? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

All the pages are very short and repetitive, and according to @Janwo, they aren't quite written in the claimed language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

What i said was that in a few pages, I found sentences partly written in Bahasa Indonesia. --Janwo (talk) 06:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, 215,000 speakers, maybe contacting WMID for ideas? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Only one very short page. The user who created it is no longer active. It's better to start from scratch. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, 15,000 speakers, not sure whether m:Wiki Society of the Philippines has idea on finding real L1 speakers to contribute. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Only a main page with some text in Ukrainian and English, written by someone who doesn't claim to know the language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I wanted to create a main page to make the base of future wiki. I have written the guide how to start the Wikipedia in Ukrainian (official language in country where most of Urums live) and English (one of the most spoken languages in the world).

I think that that we should not delete the Wikipedia because Urum language has enough speakers to create a community for working on any wikiproject.

Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 12:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

When they actually come, it can be easily recreated. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't know. You are free to do what you think will be better, I will not be arguing. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oppose I changed my position. I don't think there is a problem to keep 2 pages of the project. I know that the pages aren't written in native language, but it was created to make further development of the Wikipedia possible.

Also, there are few Wikipedias in languages with a few speakers, such as Sakizaya (590 speakers) or Inari Sami (450) that were developed in Incubator.

But you can do what you want.

Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 15:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sakizaya (590 speakers) or Inari Sami (450) were developed by people who actually know the language with help from people who don't know the language. In this case, there is no one who knows the language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

But, for example, Inari Wikipedia also wasn't always active and not always had enough contributors when it was in Incubator. It was started in 2011, but created only in 2020. But it wasn't deleted because of lack of speakers of contributors and now develops as separate project. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 17:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I strongly doubt that Inari Sami became successful because an inactive Incubator had existed. And it would probably become just as successful if the inactive Incubator was deleted.

The reason that inactive Incubator that have no real content in the actual language should be deleted is that it's hard enough to manage so many languages in one place, and it's even harder when some of them just clog the lists of languages without having any real content. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

If we look at Wp/ctg/Main Page created on 2010 by a non-native user in English (International) language. Later on 2018 another user translated in Bengali (local national) language. Than we can see in 2021 a user is trying to translate 50% Bengali and 50% Chittagonian and than in 2022 a user started to translate in fully Chittagonian. The time difference is 12 years! Are we consistent with that in Wp/uum, which started recently? ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 20:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ Per Ethnologue, Chittagonian has 13,000,000 speakers according to SIL's survey in 2006 and in 3 (Wider communication), by following their other survey datas, ctg can be treated enough as a separate language from standard Bengali, but then, Urum has only 1,000 speakers in Ukraine by a 2023 survey, and the status is 7 (Shifting), language use field says Adults only, few child speakers (Salminen 2007). Shifting to Ukrainian [ukr]., the creator also claimed "Test wikis of languages of Turkey" on Wp/uum itself below, but neither this nor Turkey info page show relations each other, means that such claim is by itself suspicious. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:19, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Support The Urum test project can be easily re-created. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral, 1,000 in Ukraine, and No known L1 speakers in Georgia. Due to de facto War zone situation, I have less hope for serious contributors. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oppose, The current info page does not have a ‘create new page’ option. Therefore, I am not convinced that it can be easily recreated by a non-English speaker, an inexperienced user, or a non-technical individual. --ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 07:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ But if there are really benefical to wish this to be re-created? As there are low number of speakers, I don't think if there's strong hope for it. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Which info page? If this is useful, then perhaps such a button can be created for all languages and not just specifically for this one. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

For example, let’s compare different types of info pages. Wp/ils is a deleted project (please check the placeholder template; it doesn’t have the ‘Create page’ option, so it’s not as easy to create as claimed). Now, compare this with Wt/ctg, a project with ‘tocreate’ status, which does have that option.-- ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 20:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Such "tocreate" info pages look like what OWTB supports for having, but also, there are some users, like me, that oppose them for existing. Creating new pages via tocreate look like too easy to be safety, as it will not require disclosure of language speech at Babel (e.g. ctg-N, uk-2...), where the non-created info pages require it by system, this will lead a possible that the project is initialized by non-speakers with just random English (or sometimes French, German...) texts, maybe a broad discussion about this should happen at I:CP. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

It does have a "Create" button at the top of the page, just like all pages that don't exist. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Support Absolutely useless project. No pages in Urum whatsoever, no known speakers and zero hope for them bevause of SVO. We should absolutely not waste the server space on such things. 5.183.29.95 10:52, 29 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

1. For 12 years of existence Even Wikipedia, the project has not appeared even a single word in Even (:D). Only two articles were created - Wp/eve/Википедия, originally written in Latin Crimean Tatar, and Wp/eve/Монгол, written in Evenki. The main page is written entirely in Russian.
2. The Even Wiktionary is also not written in Even — all 88 articles either contain single Even word, or a word with a definition in Russian. The main page was initially written in Russian with a touch of Abkhazian.
3. The Even Wikibooks doesn't contain and hasn't contained a single article ever. The main page is written entirely in Russian, before that-entirely in English with Ukrainian interspersed, to which the category for Urum was also added.

I don't think it makes any sense to kept projects that have or has text in Russian, English, Ukrainian, Mongolian, Crimean Tatar, Abkhazian, Evenki, and Urum, but not in Even. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Definitely delete Wp and Wb.

I'm less sure about Wt. If these are actually Even words with translations into Russian, there is some value in that.

To alleviate any doubt, if people who know Even want to create Wikipedia or Wikibooks, they are welcome to recreate it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80 & Таёжный лес: Well, maybe these projects are more or less likely affected due to under same Tungusic umbrella and, if I remember correctly, many of them are initialized by MiiCii (notified at talk page, so no need to ping): Wp/mnc (has a RFL verified as eligible), Wt/mnc (has a RFL verified as eligible), Wb/mnc, Wn/mnc (just a placeholder), Wq/mnc, Wy/mnc (just a placeholder), Wp/sjo (has a RFL), Wp/gld, Wt/gld, Wb/gld (just a placeholder), Wp/oaa, Wt/oaa, Wb/oaa (just a placeholder), Wp/ulc, Wt/ulc, Wb/ulc (just a placeholder), Wp/evn (has a rejected RFL), Wt/evn, Wb/evn (just a placeholder), Wp/neg, Wt/neg, Wb/neg (just a placeholder), Wp/orh, Wt/orh, Wb/orh (just a placeholder), Wp/oac, Wt/oac, Wb/oac (just a placeholder), Wp/ude, Wt/ude and Wb/ude (just a placeholder). If the quality of these projects are also eve-like, then I would love to extend this deletion requests to cover em. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

For record, per Ethnologue: Even - 5,300 in Russia, 7 (Shifting). Evenki - 11,000 in China, 5,830 in Russia (6b (Threatened) in both), No known L1 speakers in Mongolia. Nanai - 3,180 in Russia, 8a (Moribund), 40 in China, 8b (Nearly extinct). Manchu - 20 in China, 8b (Nearly extinct). Negidal - 22 in Russia, 8a (Moribund). Orok - 89 in Russia, 8a (Moribund), 3 in Japan, 8b (Nearly extinct). Oroch - 43 in Russia, 8b (Nearly extinct). Oroqen - 1,200 in China, 8a (Moribund). Xibe - 30,000 in China, 6b (Threatened). Udihe - 190 in Russia, 8a (Moribund). Ulch - 510 in Russia, 8a (Moribund). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

The number of speakers is not very relevant here. Manchu has very few speakers, but very active editors. If editors come, a new Incubator can easily be created. The discussion here is not about the languages, but about the content in the Incubator. There is pretty much nothing in the current content, so it's better to delete it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80 Wp/grc has even no speakers, but also "very active editors", actually, my worry about Manchu is based on a 2022 discussion where several "users" are not real single contributors, but just someone who created one account by one hand, and another account by another hand, 3rd account by one foot, and 4th account by another foot... all in one - socks. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't think this may be appliable to other projects. MiCii is related to only one of them, just to that with highest quality. Таёжный лес (talk) 06:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

In addition, many of them have valuable content created by this languages speakers. Таёжный лес (talk) 06:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

All of the Wt/eve pages are available on existing Wiktionary versions. Таёжный лес (talk) 07:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226 Agree to delete any projects just a placeholder mentioned above.

It's reasonable not to keep them.

Recreating them after the speakers who are able to edit the projects of these languages have joined. MiiCii 02:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment @Таёжный лес: From a recent view, Miguelisoalsjsosns initialized Wq/eve, is that user a potential Even speaker? Or did that user start a wrong project? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Have no idea. I doubt very much that he knows the Even language. Таёжный лес (talk) 16:36, 1 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Even though a code was granted in 2019, it's still an extinct language, so having a test project violates LPP, and hence its RFL rejected recently. As there are good contents, migrating to 3rd party website such as Incubator Plus would be fair than just delete. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

There's a lot of content there. I don't know whether it's good Taivoan, but I am assuming good faith.

It probably shouldn't be speedily and completely deleted, but rather moved to Incubator Plus. I'm not directly experienced with this myself, however, so I'm not sure what's the process for doing that. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Actually I'm also considering to do samething for Wp/grc, but for that, I will need a stackholder to preserve those contents wishing to be migrated. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

As a teacher of the Taivoan language and the main contributor to Wp/tvx, I can confidently say that labeling the language as "extinct" is not accurate at all. The Taivoan language is a dormant language, not an extinct one, as the indigenous people have been working to revive it based on the rich vocabulary and sentences left by the Dutch people in the 17th century. These documents include the Gospel of Matthew (23,000–25,000 words), the Catechism (nearly 10,000 words), and the Gospel of John (more than 15,000 words), which was only recently discovered in 2019.

Now we have a simple and yet encouraging dictionary in Taivoan, published in 2023, along with three versions of textbooks published by three Taivoan communities in two dialects — one in 2022 and the other two in 2024. We have also recently completed three sessions of language courses, covering from daily vocabulary to religious lyrics, with students ranging in age from 10 to 66 years old. This initiative enables people to teach their children how to read the language or even integrate it into the tourism industry they have been developing in the past decade.

As we prepare to file a new request to create a Taivoan Wikipedia, your support in preserving the works of Wp/tvx is crucial. Thank you for your understanding and support. Bellenion (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would however think that Wikipedia isn't the only way for this, there could also have other wiki host platforms e.g. wiki.gg. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the response, @Bellenion.

I'm a member of the Language committee, but I'm not speaking on behalf of the whole committee in this comment, and this is only my own opinion.

Given what Bellenion writes, I now think even more strongly that we should assume good faith and that this Incubator shouldn't be deleted at all.

I marked the first request for this language on Meta as "rejected" mainly because the language is classified as "extinct" by ISO 639 3, and the proposal policy allows only Wikisource projects in extinct languages. That request had some other problems, which are quite relevant to this discussion. It was created by a user who didn't do almost anything else on Wikimedia projects and who probably doesn't know the language. The request also included nonsense and unrealistic claims about the language.

So that request has practically nothing to do with the actual content of the Incubator and with the people who have written there. In fact, perhaps it would be even better if I deleted it completely instead of just rejecting it. (I have gone over a lot of requests for new languages in the last few weeks, and I noticed that this strange and undesirable phenomenon is surprisingly common. I hope that I'll find the time to prevent it more strictly going forward.)

It is okay if the content stays, and if Bellenion and other people who actually know something about this language create a new request for it on Meta and explain the language's status the way they see it. It does happen that ISO 639 3 classifies languages incorrectly, and that information can be updated, especially when everything is done by serious people with good intentions and relevant knowledge. This is not a commitment to mark the language as eligible, but a well-written request that explains how the language conforms to the Language proposal policy may be approved.

I'd also like to add that if Bellenion is interested in it, digitizing the already-published content in this language, like the Gospels he mentioned, is definitely desirable. It already can be done on the Multilingual Wikisource - https://wikisource.org. If there is enough material, it can even be converted to a separate Wikisource domain eventually. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80 What I request isn't "deleted at all", but migrate to another better platform, due to Wikipedia's de facto, and ad hoc situation that exclude newcommers of extinct languages as well as possible.

"It is okay if the content stays" by reviewing scowiki issue, that's really a questionable suggestion, if there are no L1 speakers, then who can warrant that these are indeed in Taivoan instead of another new, unrelated Pidgin or Creole and/or Conlang? "It does happen that ISO 639 3 classifies languages incorrectly" maybe, but Ethnologue said more briefly factual situation that No known L1 speakers. The last known speaker died near the end of the 1800s. so far, @Bellenion: I'd love to suggest not to create a new request for it on Meta too soon, but try to do what Thao did: 2021-028 request, to change type to living, adopted.

So yes, digitizing the already-published content in this language as well as possible, such languages shall focus on the Wikisource inclusion instead of Wikipedia, or otherwise why we need Wikisource? Wikipedia has 5 pillars that every language has to follow without any reservation, or otherwise got closed: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (where extinct languages can't be encyclopedia by themselves), Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view (where, by practices, extinct languages can only provide their own POVs instead of neutral), Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute (where extinct languages can't be used by non interests, and can only distribute in a very limited aforementioned region), Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility (where extinct languages can only treat other languages' speakers "unfair", "discriminate", etc. without any frontage prejudices), Wikipedia has no firm rules (where extinct languages set too much of unnecessary firm rules). But do Wikisource wikis have them? No.

For many years, there are several ad hoc claims that a language "must first open their Wikipedia first", this can also be vetoed simply by Shawiya example: their Wiktionary has created, but Wikipedia rejected. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226, in this reply, you make many false claims, such as this one: "Wikipedia has 5 pillars that every language has to follow without any reservation".

Please stop doing this. I already asked you: before you cite something that you think is a rule, check whether it is actually a rule. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 01:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80 I didn't say 5 pillars are rules, instead, I acknowledge with original texts: The fundamental principles of Wikipedia may be summarized in five "pillars". Fundamental principles aren't "rules", but also have to follow. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

If you are referring to the page m:Founding principles, it's not so consistent with what you write, and it's not very relevant to this discussion anyway. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 02:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Dear, in the Dargin version of the incubator, I found a large number of articles not in the literary dialect, I put templates where the language is incorrect so that the articles are deleted, please delete these articles as soon as you can, those who have administrator rights Saad Dargan (talk) 11:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Maybe, it written in other dialect? All dargin languages have one ISO code. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 11:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I speak two dialects, all articles are written mainly in two dialects, those in which I speak, half of the text is everywhere in Russian with a huge number of errors in Dargin, articles without errors and correctly written in one of the dialects I leave Saad Dargan (talk) 11:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

So, if I understand correctly, the articles are written in bad Dargin mixed with Russian (presumedly, created by non-native speakers). How feasible is it to correct the language? If that's possible, that should be the first way to go. --OWTB (talk) 09:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

yes, you got it right. I correct what can be corrected, but my plans are to clear the incubator of articles that do not correspond to the Dargin language and start writing correct articles myself. besides, in addition to the language in the article, the title is incorrectly indicated for 60% of the articles 2A02:8108:286:D000:985:AB9D:2ED6:4815 09:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Saad Dargan, вы хотите удалить все нынешние страницы в Инкубаторе на даргинском языке, или только те, которые вы пометили? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

только те, что я пометил, так как там имеются добротные статьи. Saad Dargan (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Хорошо. Такие вещи не надо просить на этой странице. Эта страница для запроса удаления всех страниц на определённом языке.

А те, что вы пометили настолько плохие, что их нельзя просто исправить? Обязательно удалить? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

понял, да, они неполные а те что написаны 10 лет назад написаны на извращенном языке который не имеет ничего общего ни с одним диалектом. буду писать заново добротные статьи 2A00:20:7010:7B15:69C8:D46C:C1F9:9748 12:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

As per the rejected RFL, there are no evidences why Upper Saxon is distinct from standard German, as such, this project is weird, the Upper Saxon contents can just be provided, and speakers of that can just contribute, the dewiki, maybe these contents should merge to dewiki first? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Strong Oppose. A rejected RFL is not a permanent ruling and could potentially be approved if a second RFL is proposed in the future with strong backing from the local Upper Saxon community. This language does not look 'weird'. It has its own ISO 693-3 Code and there are 2,000,000 native speakers (comparable to Hunsrik Wikipedia which has 3 million native speakers). Upper Saxon has a significant presence in Saxony and holds cultural importance to the inhabitants there and authors have written & published books in this language. Germany is a signatory to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and Part II of that Charter mentions "The prohibition of all forms of unjustified distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference relating to the use of a regional or minority language and intended to discourage or endanger its maintenance or development." --DaveZ123 (talk) 08:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

[5] suggests that It is indeed only a regional spoken variety, and completely mutually intelligible with standard German, the only sightly difference looks like regional pronunciation, to which there should probably create a script converter, see also mw:LanguageConverter, verily say, German should probably be the first European Union official language with LanguageConverter support in production wikis like dewiki (that section listed English has "Pig Latin" but only for testing). But indeed, if you really have evidences why the rejection rationale is wrong (e.g. you have them to refute mutually intelligiblity with dewiki), you can submit a second request as appeal, so that everything would be re-analysed. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Deleted; the content is useless and the project won't ever be approved. --MF-W {a, b} 14:42, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. MF-W {a, b} 14:42, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Lack of any Tindi content since creation in 2009. Have only two created in 2011 one-word pages Wp/tin/Хъварщи and Wp/tin/Идараб мицци, where first of them in Avar, not in Tindi. Таёжный лес (talk) 10:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral [6] told me: 4,730 speakers according to a 2020 census, but it's an Unwritten [Qaax] language, maybe more investigations are needed before any actions here. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Same story as Wp/tin above: three one-word pages, a copied template in Russian and a main page entirely in Russian as well. Not a single sentence in Botlikh, and quite obviously never touched by anyone with knowledge of the language.  IJzeren Jan (besěda) 18:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral 5,240 speakers, also Unwritten [Qaax] language, as such, my comment to tin above also applies here. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's not about numbers of speakers. A small but dedicated community can be enough to create a thriving project (like this one, which 50 speakers), but sometimes a project is closed for the simple reason that nobody wants or needs it, even if the language itself has a million speakers or more. Here we аre dealing with a test wiki created by an anonymous user who clearly doesn't know the language, but simply copy-'n-pasted a main page in Russian from some other test wiki, as well as three one-word pages with words that were probably found here, here and here, none of which have ever been edited by anyone else. According to policy, all four of them qualify for deletion. Since there's nothing worth preserving here, wouldn't you agree that it would be better to start from scratch once someone shows up who actually speaks the language?  IJzeren Jan (besěda) 22:43, 19 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Full Support of deletion per nominator. Таёжный лес (talk) 05:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support I support the deletion as explained above. If this project contains no meaningful content and has never been active since its creation, retaining it does not appear to serve any useful purpose. --ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 05:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

All pages are completely written in Russian, not in Baltic Romani. Таёжный лес (talk) 15:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Судя по всему, автор, @Samuel.A.Kim:, не совсем верно понял смысл Викисловаря. Думаю, это нужно перенести в русский Викисловарь. I think, it should be moved to Russian Wiktionary. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Автор понял суть словаря, но учитывая, что автор создавал материалы в инкубаторе, то в первую очередь приоритетом было наполнение словаря, а не перевод интерфейса. Кроме того, учитывая, что данный диалект использует русский язык в качестве основы, то при работе в инкубаторе было удобнее пользоваться интерфейсом, который был предложен, т.е. русский. Samuel.A.Kim (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Neutral Per Ethnologue, 7,280 speakers in Poland, 12,000 in Belarus, 460 in Estonia, 1,970 in Lithuania, 5,640 in Latvia, and probably there are speakers in Russia, and all are in 5* (Developing) status. Looks like both Cyrillic and Latin being used for these speakers, just depend on where they're living, better to give some months to see if such purely-russian contents can be translated or not. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Anyway @Таёжный лес: The Danvintius Bookix above recently contributed some contents at Wq/rml, is that project also meeting same issue? Or that project is in correct language? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

In the correct language. Таёжный лес (talk) 06:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Do we really need a project using macrolanguage code, where all of its member language codes are either having separate test projects, or already having Wikipedias for years? Specifically for the lah:

1. Southern Hindko (hnd) - test project
2. Northern Hindko (hno) - test project
3. Jakati (jat) - test project (but claimed "Jatki" which cause another RFD above)
4. Pahari-Potwari (phr) - test project
5. Western Panjabi (pnb) - pnbwiki exists
6. Saraiki (skr) - skrwiki exists
7. Khetrani (xhe) - test project

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Wp/jat & this be deleted because macro languages are not allowed. same case is for Wp/bal. Sraiki (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not discussing Wp/bal due to verification debates in the past months, see 1, 2, and 3. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ok, If Wp/lah is remained, what will be its dialect. so be deleted. also wp/jat be removed because code is not correct. Sraiki (talk) 15:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226 Dear, As per request of creator of Wp/jat be removed. or it may be moved to Wp/lah. Please do as soon as possible Sraiki (talk) 07:04, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sraiki There's already a jat related discussion above, anyway I'm not an admin so I can't delete anything. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:06, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

dtp.wikipedia is launched 8 months ago, btm.wikipedia 7 months ago, since then many other Wikipedias launched. Are there any pages not imported to those Wikipedias? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Pinging @Sotiale. Ninja✮Strikers ^«☎» 03:42, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. It is in progress after review. --Sotiale (talk) 14:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 06:51, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

These projects are already on Russian Wikinews 151.135.197.56 13:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Tend to support deletion of Wn/kk per the rejected RFL, which as only having little substubs before RFL rejection, there are merely no benefit for having a separate kk.wikinews. Eventually, it currently has no pages. (Someone would say that there's second open RFL, but its creator Bauka0625 didn't create anything except their own user page here)

The later two were discussed in 2019 which result no consensus, of which Tatar Wikinews has its RFL verified as eligible, I'm not sure whether there's really benefit for second trial of RFD em. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Support I support the deletion of the projects as per the request. Besides that, these projects have never been active in the incubator since their creation.--ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 08:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ The last Tatar one may be a sensitive question as, again, its RFL is verified as eligible, I contacted a user who voted keep in that 2019 DR, that has several contributions to Wq/tt. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

"Delete" (in scare quotes because no use of the MediaWiki deletion functionality is involved here - the page will really be replaced with a pointer) wn/kk as empty. Delete wn/sah, which only contains a main page and no other content. Inclined to delete wn/tt, which only contains a Main Page and one news article from 2020, as well, but not as strongly convinced. In any case these can be recreated if there's a movement to develop the project outside of Russian Wikinews.

Once these are deleted, we need to decide what to do with the domain names https://kk.wikinews.org, https://sah.wikinews.org, https://tt.wikinews.org.

Inclined to redirect https://tt.wikinews.org -> https://ru.wikinews.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B3%D1%8B_%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82, https://sah.wikinews.org -> https://ru.wikinews.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D2%AF%D1%80%D2%AF%D0%BD_%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%8D%D0%B9, but redirect https://kk.wikinews.org to https://ru.wikinews.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8:%D0%9C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C (the project page explaining Russian Wikinews' multilingual initiative) since there isn't even a Kazakh Main Page. Although even the first two are very dead. And for all three domains redirect https://tt.wikinews.org/wiki/foo -> https://ru.wikinews.org/wiki/Foo. Pppery (talk) 20:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Pppery I think for 3rd one, once we indeed gain consensus to delete, we might need to discuss with langcom members on whether its RFL's eligible status should be revoked. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

The project should remain in-theory eligible. I'm effectively saying to do a soft delete - delete the nearly-empty test currently there without prejudice against a new movement for starting a test if one forms. Pppery (talk) 03:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Extinct language. The request has been rejected. 176.220.158.28 08:04, 11 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oppose. This is not a valid reason for deletion. Wikis on dead languages ​​exist in Incubator. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 11:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Move to Incubator Plus, then delete Per rejected RFL, while this language is used for Torah/Talmud study in modern times, but there is really no current new work in the language, with the exception of some religious writings. As currently LPP disallow any kinds of Ancient, Extinct and Historical languages, I don't see any way tmr.wikipedia.org could be opened. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oppose. millions of Jews use this language when studying the Talmud and other Jewish books. It is also not accurate that there are no new works in this language - a large number of Jewish book writers choose to do so in a combination of Hebrew and Aramaic. שמש מרפא (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@שמש מרפא If you think that RFL is rejected wrongly, you can submit 2nd request. That said, tmr is an Extinct language, it's already extinct since 1200 CE, 825 years till now. As for "in a combination of Hebrew and Aramaic", if this is true, the correct way is one of Hebrew Wikipedia, Wp/aii (for Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or Wp/cld (for Chaldean Neo-Aramaic), they are living languages. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

It depends on how you define "extinct language". It is not used in everyday speech, but it is definitely used when writing a certain genre of books. There are new books being printed literally on a daily basis in this language. This is Talmudic Aramaic, so the dialects of Aramaic you mentioned are not relevant to this matte , and they are practically completely different languages.שמש מרפא (talk) 00:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@שמש מרפא "There are new books being printed literally on a daily basis in this language." Indeed, but eventually, LPP doesn't allow new wikis (except Wikisources, however they are not testing here, but Multilingual Wikisource) in Extinct languages to be created, for record, a Meta-Wiki RFC about re-allowing these non-living languages is also rejected by langcom. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Aramaic is a language that still lives in thousands of seminaries where Talmud is studied, as well as among Jewish scholars, there is no reason to delete it.

I use Google Translate, sorry. אייל (talk) 06:42, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@אייל If this is the real case, then I recommend you to submit a SIL change request to change its Language Status to Living (See [7] on how to do so), otherwise, even you submitted a Meta language request, it will only be rejected again, and your contents are still unable to keep here. That said, being an Ancient, an Extinct and/or a Historical language is already enough a valid reason for RFD, as currently LPP barred non-Wikisource wikis in such languages. Don't tell me Latin, Sanskrit or else, they are grandfathered things before LPP effective. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

However, there are Wikipedias in Ancient Greek and Montenegrin in the Incubator, which were rejected. Why should this project be deleted? --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Danvintius Bookix For Ancient Greek, I'm planning for a migration too: Talk:Wp/grc/Κυρία_Δέλτος#Consider_a_new_website_for_serving_these_contents?, where you also commented there. And for Montenegrin, its 5th RFL isn't rejected yet, it's still open, so if you think Montenegrin shall be eligible, you can share your opinion on that RFL. And how both cases are related to this? Your example provided under Wp/sro already gave me an idea that you really don't know how to find a good "example", you say that "example" is not absurd, where objected by the followers. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 13:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't see the sequence. You can plan anything. If there is an Ancient Greek Wikipedia in the Incubator, why not this one (Montenegrin will be rejected). As for personal attacks, keep them to yourself. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Danvintius Bookix: That's not "personal attack", rather, that's the fact, if Ancient Greek is rejected for several times despite many users support it, then I don't see why you and אייל are opposing this one, which just rejected once without anybody's support, isn't this panorama too bogus to be senseful, useful and kindful? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

We have an opinion different from yours (does this seem wrong to you?). Are you asking why this is so, or will you still provide some arguments? --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 14:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Danvintius Bookix Wikipedia isn't the only way to have a wiki in a certain language, especially if and when a language is defined by policy that not suitable for having it. If all of your ideas are just to have a wiki in tmr language, why not try Incubator Plus instead? Why that wiki must be a Wikipedia? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:22, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

We were talking about something else. We were talking about the existence of a wiki project in the Incubator. I think that there were no compelling reasons for removing this project from the Incubator. The creation of Wikipedia in this language is discussed elsewhere. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 14:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Danvintius Bookix There are already reasons: it violates m:LPP as being an extinct language, its contents are not contributed by actual speakers, and there are good 3rd platforms to host them better. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Once again: we are not at Meta and we are not at RFL. Regarding third platforms: if a decision is made to remove them, it is up to the community to decide and I am ready to provide assistance and support. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 10:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@שמש מרפא While you are right that there are writers who use a combination of Aramaic and Hebrew, there are many others who write purely in Aramaic. And not just in a religious or Talmud context, but there are even thriller and fantasy books which use Aramaic like the book חרשתא by Judith Kagan. So this language is very much alive! Cheder pik (talk) 20:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oppose. Below are several reasons why this project should be preserved and supported:

1. A Living Cultural and Liturgical Language: Jewish Babylonian Aramaic is not merely a historical language but a living, vibrant part of daily life for millions of Orthodox Jews worldwide. It is the primary language of the Babylonian Talmud, studied daily in communities across the globe. In yeshivas (Jewish religious schools), students use this language actively, integrating it into spoken communication, religious discourse, and cultural traditions.
2. Linguistic and Liturgical Use: JBA holds a central role in liturgical practices and prayers, for example in Kaddish, a significant Jewish prayer recited in synagogues globally.
3. Community of Native and Fluent Speakers: There is a native-speaking community of Jewish Aramaic speakers from Kurdistan, known as the Nash Didan. This community has historically spoken a variety of Jewish Aramaic, and while their vernacular is distinct from Babylonian Aramaic, it is part of the same rich linguistic tradition. Preserving a project in JBA supports the documentation and continuation of Aramaic language heritage broadly.
4. Contemporary Cultural Usage: JBA also holds a place in modern culture. For example, it has been used in films such as The Passion of the Christ, featured in comedy shows, like here, and here, and serves as the language for numerous songs, like this, and this, or this. Additionally, there is a vibrant social media presence, including a humorous Facebook page (סטטוסים בארמית) and a dedicated Facebook discussion group for enthusiasts and speakers of Babylonian Aramaic.
5. Cultural and Historical Significance: JBA was a lingua franca for Jewish communities in the Middle East and beyond for over a millennium. It is the primary language of the Babylonian Talmud, one of the foundational texts of Jewish law and culture, studied extensively by scholars and students worldwide to this day.
6. Academic and Research Relevance: JBA remains a core subject of study. It is studied in universities across the globe, including prestigious institutions specializing in Judaic Studies, Semitics, and Ancient Languages. Universities and scholars rely on accessible resources for research and education. A Wikipedia in this language aligns with Wikimedia’s mission to make knowledge freely available.
7. Community Interest and Contributions: The existence of active contributors and a growing body of content shows there is a community of interested users willing to invest time and effort into building the project. This reflects a real demand for resources in JBA. Many similar projects have thrived once they gained visibility and support.
8. Usage in Hebrew and Other Languages: Many words commonly used in modern Hebrew are directly borrowed from Aramaic (for instance אבא, קופסא, דוגמא, etc.), while countless others are derived from Aramaic roots. This influence extends beyond Hebrew into other languages as well (like marhaba in Arabic). Preserving JBA is also essential for understanding these connections and the linguistic evolution it shaped. Additionally, JBA present in culture through the names of businesses and institutions. For example, the name of Assuta Hospital in Ashdod is Aramaic. Many other enterprises, organizations, and products use Aramaic names (see this article).
9. Precedents for Historical Language Projects: There are already established Wikipedias in languages with similar historical and academic uses, such as Latin, Old English, and Classical Chinese. JBA deserves the same recognition and support as it occupies a similar position in the history of world literature and linguistics.
10. Alignment with Wikimedia’s Mission: Wikimedia’s commitment to linguistic diversity and the documentation of human knowledge is at the heart of this project. Allowing it to continue fosters the preservation of an important linguistic heritage, enriches educational content, and encourages engagement with one of the world’s most historically significant languages.

Eliahu21 (talk) 22:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eliahu21 All of your rationales were also referred by Ancient Greek supporters via 4th request, but finally, rejected. Unless if one day LPP itself changed, the situation is here, that Only Wikisource wikis in ancient or historical languages are accepted. So why don't you agree to move this into an Incubator Plus site? Nobody wants to delete without backups unless for blatant spams. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ancient Greek, being a direct ancestral variant of Modern Greek, which already has its own Wikipedia, does not represent a separate cultural or linguistic community, but rather a historical stage of the same language continuum.

On the other hand, Jewish Aramaic has no Wikipedia representation in any form. denying a Wikipedia to JBA would mean that an entire cultural, religious, and linguistic tradition remains without a dedicated repository of free, user-generated knowledge on Wikimedia platforms.

Moreover, unlike Ancient Greek, JBA is not only used ceremonially but as a practical communicational language. This is mainly because it is the main language in halakhic literature. Unlike Ancient Greek, which is primarily studied for historical insight, JBA’s study often directly informs modern-day decision-making and religious observance, not just academic curiosity. This makes it daily relevant for every practicing Jew.

You can walk into a yeshiva and see students having a lively debate about Aramaic concepts like ברי ושמא or חזקת מרא קמא.

JBA is also widely used in the Israeli legal system. This makes its usage closer to a living cultural practice rather than a ceremonial tradition.

Also, the community engaging with JBA is larger, more active, and more globally dispersed than any comparable Ancient Greek-speaking community. Eliahu21 (talk) 20:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eliahu21 If you think describing tmr is an "extinct language" by SIL isn't correct, then you can submit a 2nd request as appeal, that said, before the 1st request rejection, I was also pinging some active contributors of Wp/tmr, but whether you believe or not, they all didn't comment, just faced-to-faced the rejection decision. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226 I do think that describing JBA as an extinct language is not correct, and I intend to follow your suggestion.

Is it required to first submit a SIL change status request (which I still don't fully understand how it's done), before submitting 2nd RFL?

Also, from what I understand, before submitting RFL the community needs to complete the translation of the interface. This means that assuming this RFD is rejected, the community still have some completions to make before submitting 2nd RFL.

I also believe that not everyone are receiving emails when being pinged. I will leave some users a message on their personal talk page, hopefully some more people will join this discussion. Eliahu21 (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eliahu21 There's no need to do anything before "submitting RFL", in some cases, however, by no submitting RFLs, a language even can't seek for enabling translatewiki.net i18n functions due to lack of content supports. What is required via interface is that before a RFL been approved, the community needs to complete the translation of the interface, one of requirements to consider approving a RFL, not a requirement to submit. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 16:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also for "Is it required to first submit a SIL change status request (which I still don't fully understand how it's done), before submitting 2nd RFL?" By strictly, it depends on SIL's language type field, if SIL already defined your language as Living, then you don't need to do anything on it. But for tmr, this is really not the case, so it's likely that you should do so, otherwise even you just created a Meta-Wiki RFL right now, you will only see it's rejected some months later (even got many supporters during RFL open, just see Ancient Greek 4 as example). To do so, a. read Submitting Change Requests page to see what you'll need to provide for your change request, for your case, it would be 1.3. Change non-normative information such as *language Type*, b. Visit their Google form and fill in the required informations, include e.g. references to support your change request claims, c. make sure your e-mail address is working since your submission, and at least until results by Maintenance Agency (MA), they may send e-mails to your address at any time. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 16:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226 Thank you so much for the informative guide 🙏 Eliahu21 (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

And, for 9th point "Precedents for Historical Language Projects", I would cite this to object you: [8], it says:

The period of Erasmus, More and Newton is before the date the Wikimedia language policy was enacted.

...

How languages are used is not relevant to the WMF language policy nor its language committee...That is the scope of a Wikipedia and it is of a higher order than what the

language policy or committee is there for.

Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Neutral. Although I very mildly support deletion, I can also see some valid arguments for keeping. I really don't have a strong opinion about this, and I'm biased, both as a Language committee member, and as a Jewish Israeli Hebrew speaker. I will comment about a few things, however, just for the record.

Everyone agrees that the language is frequently used to study Jewish religious books by many people. It is also definitely used to write some new religious books, often mixed with Hebrew. A more curious question is this: Is it used to write other things outside Wikimedia sites? I kind of heard that it is, but I've never actually seen them. If they exist, then it is definitely legitimate.

If it is not, but serious people want to try to use it to write about other things in a way that will help the many thousands of Yeshiva students learn those things, then it is kind of legitimate, too. All those Yeshiva students also know some other modern language, like Hebrew, English, Yiddish, French, etc., and they can consume Wikipedia in those languages, but perhaps doing it in Aramaic will be more... conducive for learning for some of them? I don't know, and I'm not strongly opposed to letting people experiment with this, as long as the experiment is done in good faith.

The fact that the language is ancient and extinct is, by itself, a good reason for deletion. Ancient Greek, for example, is still here, because there's a lot of content there, and no one invested the effort into moving it elsewhere, but it should be deleted eventually. But the social status of this variety of Aramaic is not quite the same as the social status of Ancient Greek.

The language of the Nash Didan, which was mentioned in this discussion, is in the Aramaic family, but it's very different from tmr. It's a small and endangered, but nevertheless living language, and if someone can write this language and wants to develop a Wikipedia in it, it's definitely eligible, although it will be challenging in practice for other reasons. In any case, it's not really related to the discussion about tmr.

These are my 2 agorot. Administrators shouldn't make decisions based just on this contribution by me. Other community members and Language committee are welcome to chime in. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80 For the Nash Didan, if it's really "very different from tmr. It's a small and endangered, but nevertheless living language", then "I'm afraid" of the "I'm afraid", it would just be a new language which previously didn't have language code(s) ever, and in that case, starting any projects using tmr language code would be tricky wrong (like the jat case above, which jat is assigned as "Jakati", Ethnologue consider it as Inku in Afghanistan, but contributors added contents in "Jatki" (which doesn't have a code) using this code). This new language should seek for requesting a new code via the Google form I mentioned above, but even to do so, then how to name it? Just Nash Didan as language name?

There are two Aramaic languages which are defined as living languages by SIL, allow me to repeat here please, Assyrian Neo-Aramaic (aii) and Chaldean Neo-Aramaic (cld), so how about merging tmr projects into Wp/aii? Or move to Wp/cld? Shouldn't either ways be less controversial if their wishes are just having a Wikipedia? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Aramaic is not one language, but a family of many languages that are significantly different: different vocabulary, different grammar, different writing systems, different times, and different cultures. Of course, there are some similarities between them, too, but there are more than enough differences that justify separate language codes and separate wikis.

The language of the Nash Didan has a code, trg.

aii and cld are perhaps similar or even identical to each other. AFAIK, there is some activity in aii, and no one tried any activity in cld, so it's not an issue. In any case, they are definitely different from tmr.

aii and trg are different from each other, but they are both living and each of them is eligible for Wikipedia.

tmr is different from both aii and trg. The last request for a Wikipedia in it was rejected. A new one can be made, but I prefer if other Language committee members decide about it if it happens.

(Perhaps I should also mention that in theory, there could be a Wikisource in tmr, but in practice, a lot of content in this language is already included in the Hebrew Wikisource because books are usually not written exclusively in tmr, but in a mix of tmr and Hebrew, and they are part of the same culture, so a separate Wikisource in tmr is probably not needed. Going even further, a Wikisource in Classical Aramaic would probably be very useful, but it would have to be established by someone who knows the language well. It would probably use code arc, syc, or aii. But that, too, is a completely separate discussion.) Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

The language spoken by the Nash Didan community, known as Jewish Neo-Aramaic, is a direct descendant of JBA. This is because the Nash Didan are direct descendants of the Jewish Babylonian diaspora.

The Nash Didan community’s language and cultural heritage represent a modern continuation and evolution of JBA. While JBA has been preserved in its classical form, the dialect spoken by the Nash Didan are descendant branch that developed from the same cultural and linguistic roots.

In this way, JBA serves as the classical, literary form, while Jewish Neo-Aramaic functions as its modern living form. This is why Jewish Neo-Aramaic is also called Targum (see here).

Although Jewish Neo-Aramaic, has evolved over centuries and includes some borrowed words from Persian or Kurdish, it remains remarkably similar to JBA. As a fluent JBA speaker, I can personally attest to the fact that almost all the Aramaic words in Nash Didan are comprehensible to me. This highlights that Jewish Neo-Aramaic is rather a modern, slightly adapted form of JBA.

While, of course, the Nash Didan community is welcome to create a Wikipedia in their own dialect if they wish, a Wikipedia in JBA still directly supports their linguistic and cultural heritage. Eliahu21 (talk) 22:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

So, how about rename this project to Wp/trg? Will that way be uncontroversial too? Otherwise as said, even you created a RFL for tmr project right now, you will only see it been rejected some months later, it won't be eligible, approved and created, really won't. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Liuxinyu970226, I asked you many times: You are not in the Language committee, so please don't tell people what the Language committee will decide. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ah okay. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Done. Project has been rejected by LangCom. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:26, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Iohanen, I find this decision quite surprising and unfortunate. It's true that the request on Meta was rejected (long ago), but there's nevertheless a certain degree of separation between the requests there and the existence of the content here. Whether this separation is good a bad is a separate discussion, but currently, it exists. And here on the Incubator, there was clearly no consensus to just delete this content outright—there was some support, but also some opposition. I recommend restoring it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Amire80: I do think it is unfortunate, but as the policy states, having been rejected by LangCom is a reason to be deleted (and I was also careful to check for a second request, which didn't exist). Another factor is that the language is extinct.

If we are to restore it, would it ever be approved, considering that the language is extinct? I can't think of a reason to say it would. This languages serves its purpose, as stated by some members, to study the Talmud and the Jewish faith in general, so how could a Wikimedia project be benefitial for it (ignoring the fact that it is extinct)? Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 14:09, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

What I mean is, we can restore it if need be, but is it really that useful? Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 14:15, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

In my "Neutral" response, I listed several possible scenarios in which it can be useful despite being mostly extinct. I say "mostly" because it is used for some modern original writing, and my impression is that it is more alive in this regard than Latin or Ancient Greek are, for example. However, because this is only an impression and because I can't provide more solid references to back it up, and also because I have some cultural connection to it myself, and hence I have a conceivable conflict of interest, I prefer if other Language committee members weighed in on whether it would ever be approved. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:06, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

It would be very helpful to have a third-party LangCom opinion ;) I myself am a supporter of having Ancient or Extinct language wikis, but this is purely because I'm interested in them, so it is merely because of a feeling attached to it. I can also see, and agree, why their creation was prohibited in the first place. There isn't a native community that would actually benefit of having the knowledge in the language, and I think this is the case for tmr, where it would (most probably, I'm guessing here) be used by Hebrew-speakers (or other languages spoken by the Jewish people, as you said in your neutral responde) who have access to the Hebrew (or other) wiki! Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 21:13, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Iohanen As a native Jewish Babylonian Aramaic speaker, allow me to say, that this project is extremely helpful! Not only for the many thousands of orthodox Jews and Yeshiva student that this can help them understand the language deeper, but also to the numerous people who study this language in universities or by themselves as well! People are desperate for contents in JBA such as Wikipedia. I can send you lots of examples via your email if you want.

Also, this language is NOT extinct! Please read the arguments made above (which I doubt you even took the time to read), before taking hasty actions. Cheder pik (talk) 18:26, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

As I said, the only problem with the language is the fact it is extinct. I'm not responsible for determining if it is extinct or not, on Incubator, we base ourselves on the academical determination of it: ISO 639-3, 639-1, Glottolog, etc. Both SIL's ISO 639-3 and Glottolog consider it an extinct language, and if you truly are a native speaker (which I highly doubt), you should instead make them consider it Living, not us. After doing so, you should restart the project (and I'm very open to restoring the old pages), make a new Meta request for a new language and then it'll probably be approved. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 19:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Like Amire80 previously said, a member of LangCom himself, the fact that this project is most helpful for so many people makes it eligible for getting a Wikipedia. And this point has been made clear throughout this discussion (which I still urge you to read) Cheder pik (talk) 20:31, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Furthermore, although tmr is incorrectly defined by SIL as extinct, there are another Jewish Aramaic dialects derived from tmr, like lsd and trg which are indisputably living, and were also represented by this project (see discussion above). You should have considered them as well! Cheder pik (talk) 20:44, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

It is better idea to move to Incubator Plus 178.240.128.233 21:49, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

As per the I:Deletion policy: "Remember that this has nothing directly to do with the decision of the language committee (langcom).". Also, Amire80 clearly stated "I prefer if other Language committee members weighed in on whether it would ever be approved.". The languages derived from tmr should have their own projects, since they have their own ISO 639-3 code. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 22:11, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I would like to propose the deletion of Wp/omp (Ancient Meitei Wikipedia) because Wp/mni (Manipuri Wikipedia) has already been approved. The Wp/omp project has been inactive since May 2021. It seems that the "omp" content can be accommodated in Wt/mni, and the resources may be a better fit for Wikisource. I would like to hear more opinions from the community on this proposal. --ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Migrate to Incubator Plus, then delete Nothing else to say, as a historical language, it violates LPP. If contributors want, they can just contribute mniwiki. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Vandalism 31.142.38.73 10:18, 24 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Not the vandalism, just another code for Wt/ce. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:35, 24 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Not done. Redirect to Wt/ce was created. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:13, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:13, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Ancient language. The request has been rejected. Pages in this wiki aren't written in Etruscan 188.58.56.64 10:53, 24 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Support. Fully agree with the nominee. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:34, 24 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Done. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:07, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 04:08, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Project contains only six articles, each of which contains only the title or title with a translation into another language. The main page contains only one sentence in Istro-Romanian. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:40, 24 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Neutral That rejected RFL was wrongly claiming "Morlakian", where Istro Romanian has 1,400 speakers (of which 300 of them are L1 speakers), contact hrwiki users first? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:40, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

• Keep so what. What are the benefits of deleting this? There's 0. Leave the project, and if one day an Istro-Romanian speaker comes, even if it's in 2040, they'll have a project to work on. Maybe they would not know otherwise how to create an Incubator project or that they can in the first place. We already missed a chance to attract an Istro-Romanian speaker [9] because no Incubator existed (they never responded to my comment just one month and a half later [10]). Why'd you want that number to be any higher?

By the way, I wasn't even warned of this deletion request by the nominator. It had to be another user 3 days later. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 18:28, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

And what are the benefits of wasting server space now? When they come they can easily re-create the project. 5.183.29.95 11:33, 29 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hahaha. Not ever has an editor cared about "wasting server space". This is the problem of the wealthy [11] [12] Wikimedia foundation, not yours. Tell me, how does it affect your experience as a reader and/or editor that this project exists in its currently very basic state? It is obvious that a newcomer user will not know how to create an Incubator project. If I or any other don't find them in time to guide them, we just lost another potential native speaker editor. All so that we could save server space on the free, volunteer website. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:54, 29 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Filipino Wiktionary has been deleted 176.89.3.13 12:18, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ancient language. Pages aren't written in Pahlavi language. 188.58.59.123 13:47, 28 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I do support the deletion, although what makes you think that pages are not in pahlavi? As far as i can tell they are in pahlavi. 5.183.29.95 11:34, 29 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Invalid codes 31.142.28.134 16:37, 29 January 2025 (UTC)Reply