Talk:Muntadhar al-Zaidi/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Muntadhar al-Zaidi. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I appreciate the artistic talent of this editor, but I believe these images do not belong on the article page, because they have not been published in any news source, and are simply one user's art work. I suggest putting these images on your user page instead. travb (talk) 00:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I second travb. The images don't add to the value of the article regardless of how interesting they might be.

Cheers mate!

Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 23:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thats a little harsh. I appreciate the artistic talent of this editor. (travb) Ikip (talk) 14:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Anonymous has changed the birth date [1] Can someone check up this edit? --91.77.92.194 (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

According to Examiner article his brother came to visit him for his birthday on January 16th. Bjornstar (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What is the point of linking to articles that don't exist? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Good red links help Wikipedia—they encourage new contributors in useful directions, and remind us that Wikipedia is far from finished.

Cheers mate!

Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 06:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Monument to Bush shoe-throwing shines at Iraqi orphanage
• Iraqi shoe hurler inspires art in Saddam hometown

A shoe monument was placed in Tikrit, Iraq in honor of Iraqi journalist Muntadhar al-Zaidi for his efforts in throwing his shoe at former President George W. Bush. --91.77.94.151 (talk) 03:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Thanks to you, 23prootie. --91.77.94.151 (talk) 03:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The closest I can get to the source of the "martyr note" story is this transcription from ABC World News, posted in various blogs across the net, and therefore of suspect origin:

"His cameraman said that just before he got up he handed him this note saying, 'It’s glorious to die a martyr.' He survived, of course, and his story may live on as well. --Jim Sciutto, ABC News, London."

The martyr note is presently unmentioned in the article. Is there any substantial reason to believe that it actually exists?

I've seen some direct references to a video where Sciutto tells this story -- enough to convince me that he is the source, but assuming Sciutto is the source, he is the author of "Against Us," a book concerning the "Muslim threat," and therefore may not be a very trustworthy source in matters of martyrdom.Bustter (talk) 15:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

If he thought he was going to die for throwing a shoe at someone, I'm not sure who this would look bad on anyways. Is the "Muslim threat" a shoe? I mean when did political protest become terrorism when someone is willing to die essentially peacefully?--76.214.161.60 (talk) 12:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

We had a discussion about this in the archives, but someone added auto-archiving without discussing it, and didn't do it right, as the archives aren't showing up linked to this page. The martyr note doesn't check out, and was found only in a report by ABC news, nowhere else. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Links to archives are now fixed. This current discussion duplicates Talk:Muntadhar al-Zaidi/Archive 1#Is it glorious to be on the safe side of BLP? There was an additional, lengthy discussion of this issue in December on both my user talk page and that of Badagnani. My simple criterion for inclusion is this: If the alleged "martyr note" was introduced as evidence at his trial, it should be included. Viriditas (talk) 01:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Another option would be to just attribute it to the one source and note only the one source says it. Such as "An ABC report claimed ..". This really doesn't seem that notable at this point though.--76.214.161.60 (talk) 02:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing that's vandalism, what else could it be? Шизомби (talk) 14:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

• TV journalist missing: An Iraqi TV journalist was kidnapped yesterday after leaving his home in Baghdad, Iraq's Journalistic Freedoms Observatory said. Muntazer al-Zaidi, 26, a correspondent for al-Baghdadiya television station, disappeared after leaving his home in a busy area of central Baghdad. --November 17, 2007. "Daily developments". The San Diego Union-Tribune Viriditas (talk) 12:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• Kidnapped Iraqi reporter freed: An Iraqi TV journalist who was kidnapped last week in Baghdad said he was released unharmed before dawn on Monday. Muntazer al-Zaidi, a correspondent for the independent Al Baghdadiya TV, said he spent more than two days blindfolded, barely eating and drinking, after armed men forced him into a car on Friday morning. Zaidi said the kidnappers beat him till he lost consciousness, used his necktie to blindfold him, and bound his hands with shoelaces. The kidnappers questioned him closely about his work, but did not demand ransom, he said. agencies. --Tuesday, November 20, 2007. "Iraqi and coalition troops crack down on Sadr militants". Daily Times Viriditas (talk) 12:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• On 16 November 2007, Muntazer Al-Zaidi, a correspondent for Al-Baghdadiya TV, was kidnapped in central Baghdad. He was released after two days. Reportedly, he was questioned closely about his work and beaten until he lost consciousness by his abductors. -United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) Geneva December 2007. Additional source:Reuters Viriditas (talk) 12:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It is indeed true that the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. In this case however, all the reports point back to an original, unreliable source. The rumor that someone threw a shoe at Ahmadinejad when he was campaigning in the city of Urmia all came from a previously-unknown blog called "Urmia News." The Guardian and Haaaretz picked it up about three days later, and Fox News copied the story from the latter. Before this story, the blog had only about 1,000 visits or so. What is true is that a shoe was thrown at the Iranian president when he was at Amirkabir University of Technology two years ago (Guardian). However, this occurred long before al-Zaidi hurled his shoes at Bush. Khoikhoi 22:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Good research.--68.251.187.176 (talk) 08:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

On 3rd January 2009 in London, during protests against the Israeli offensive in Gaza, demonstrators threw hundreds of shoes outside Downing Street in London. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/gaza-israel-protest-shoes-london —Preceding unsigned comment added by InnFocus (talk • contribs) 12:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Why is this in the 'see also' section? I consider this misleading. What do others think?--202.67.118.18 (talk) 02:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Yup, I also consider that misleading. The guy threw his shoes! Boo-hoo-hoo! It is the end of democracy as we know it! > RUL3R^>trolling_>vandalism 19:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

This situation appears already resolved, but no reasonable person would consider a throwing of a shoe with intent or ability to cause death. Lulaq (talk) 17:24, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It is interesting how Wikipedia records facts from outside the western world: "Al-Zaidi has been described as having been "embraced around the Arab world."". If this was an American and a US news source said "he was embraced around the western world", then that's exactly what the article would say probably verbatim instead of specifying he 'has been described' as such, but now it is presented as a pseudo-fact and I bet you didn't even notice this. --213.130.255.33 (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Probably because Wikipedia is controlled by Mossad. ninety:one 23:45, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

That English Wikipedia being edited 90% by English speakers leads to systemic bias hardly seems suprising. The point is to make sure that everything is attributed to a particular source.--69.219.235.167 (talk) 04:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, he was found finally guilty in the Iraqi courts of assault. Several well-regarded sources that attested to these points were removed without discussion. There is no doubt that most Iraqis were sympathetic to al-Zaidi, but popular opinion alone does not validate his torture claims nor does it pardon him from the crime that he was convicted of. Lulaq (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• The investigating judge confirmed he had been tortured, as did his lawyer, and this has been referenced. ^Izzedine 13:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I scoured the entire article trying to validate your claim. Nowhere was there ever an official finding of torture. And if we took every lawyer's statement about his client as undisputed fact, there would be no one in jail and every civil lawsuit would result in default judgment for the plaintiff. Lulaq (talk) 07:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

• shoe protester has been beaten, Iraqi judge says ^Izzedine 11:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

No, this is what the judge said, "The reporter, Muntazer al-Zaidi, had bruises on his face and around his eyes, said the judge, Dhia al-Kinani said." That does not mean he was beaten, and being beaten does not mean he was tortured. Please see WP:SYN and avoid original research. Lulaq (talk) 04:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

A number of Arab sources said he was beaten. Did any English sources say he wasn't beaten?--69.219.235.167 (talk) 04:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)