Talk:Afar Region

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved. result: No consensus. See below good arguments from supporters and opposers, but no clear agreement that the status quo should be altered. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can strengthen their rationales and try again in a few months to garner consensus for these title changes. Kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 14:19, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply] Links: current log • target log This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

• Afar Region → Afar region
• Amhara Region → Amhara region
• Somali Region → Somali region
• Tigray Region → Tigray region

– In line with the recent consensus at Talk:Oromia region, since sources don't mostly capitalize the word region in the names or descriptions of these regions (which do have other longer official proper names), and per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS, we should also not cap these. Dicklyon (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. BD2412 T 18:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Given the existence of Afar, Amhara and Somali people, the lower-case title strikes me as too ambiguous. Why isn't Somalia in the Somali region for instance? Srnec (talk) 01:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  These are regional states of Ethiopia. Sources use these terms, but usually with lowercase region. E.g. see news. Dicklyon (talk) 03:41, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, but sources usually mention them in a context. Our titles, however, do not have that context. "The Somali region of Ethiopia" is not a good counter to my point. Capitalized, it is clear that we are dealing with a name. But if these are not names, then we need to find a better way than merely decapitalizing, because the Afars and Somalis live in regions outside of Ethiopia. You might be able to get away with Amhara region. Srnec (talk) 04:04, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  It is not our style to use capitalization for the purpose you're describing. See MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 04:11, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  All of our guidelines are geared towards making our titles clear to readers above all. "Afar region" is not clear. It is almost always "Ethiopia's Afar region" or "Afar region, Ethiopia" in RS. This isn't about whether the current title is correct, but the proposed title. Srnec (talk) 15:38, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes please. Why is a formal request needed for this? Tony (talk) 03:23, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Because I already fixed them once, but those moves were reverted; so per WP:BRD, we discuss. Dicklyon (talk) 03:39, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• There was no recent consensus at Talk:Oromia region#Requested move 9 May 2021. The closer said, "there didn't seem to be consensus either way". Nurg (talk) 11:30, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Proposed titles fail the Precision criterion of article titling policy. The proposed titles do not unambiguously identify the articles' subjects and distinguish them from other subjects. Somali region of Ethiopia would be an acceptable alternative to conform to the style guideline, but the style guideline shouldn't override the precision policy. "Somali region" ambiguously implies a region of Africa that includes Somalia. Amhara region could mean the region around Amhara, Bihar which is in India, not Ethiopia. Afar region implies the region inhabited by the Afar people which includes Eritrea and Djibouti – the "Afar region" is not just limited to an area of Ethiopia. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:41, 29 May 2021 (UTC) Somali region, Ethiopia would work too, if official sources do not capitalize "region". – wbm1058 (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose the Oromia discussion case is up again and per Nurg I'm not sure why it wasn't closed as no consensus. If sources lower case then we use "X (region)" since proper nouns are in title case or if not part of the name put in brackets. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  No, the attempt to relegislate the Oromia RM was speedily closed.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: The n-gram evidence [1][2][3][4] does not support that the term is consistently capped. Per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS "region" should not be capitalised. any issue with the Somali region of Ethiopia and Greater Somalia can be remedied by a hat note. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 02:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hat note add at Somali region. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's because "region" is being used as an independent modifier namely X is in Afar region just like the fact that Mercury is a planet but "planet" isn't capitalized so its at Mercury (planet). Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NCCAPS article titles are written in sentence case excepting where all (or part of it) would normally be capitalised as a "proper name|noun". As here, a proper noun can modify a common noun and, in the resulting noun phrase, the proper noun retains capitalisation, while the noun it modifies remains lowercase. "X region" is in each case (per WP:TITLE the natural and common name for the subject - not "X" alone (eg Afra). The analogy to Mercury (planet) is therefore flawed (non sequitor). Per the guidance (WP:AT and WP:DAB) parentheses is used for disambiguation when there are two articles that would otherwise be at the same title. For the subject articles, there is no such conflict of title. Further, disambiguation is not applied to the primary topic. Hence, "X (region)" is not an appropriate title in these instances per the applicable guidelines. Similarly, "X region (Ethiopia)" is also contrary to the guidance. I note that the hat note has been added to "Somali region" and "Afra" directs to a DAB page. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 04:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes as noted this is a specific topic not a generic class so the standard England (and Wikipedia) rules are to capitalize it or put the noun in brackets. Afar is already a DAB unlike Oromia so unless this is primary it needs disambiguation. Mercury is also written as "planet Murcury" or "Murcury planet" sometimes in running text but again that's why we put "planet" in brackets since its generally lower cased and thus not part of the name. Both Newcastle upon Tyne and Southend-on-Sea have "Tyne" and "Sea" capitalized even though the 1st is the name of a specific river while the 2nd is the name for the sea in general similarly Friendly Fire (2006 film) has "Fire" capitalized since its the name of a specific film while Friendly fire doesn't since its a generic topic per NNCAPS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a change but oppose the proposed targets. I instead support the short proper name and (as each of them is currently taken by a disambiguation page) a disambiguation qualifier. From the choice of natural disambiguation, comma-separated disambiguation or parenthetical disambiguation, the last is best for these. Therefore: Afar (region), Amhara (region), Somali (region) and Tigray (region). There is plenty of precedence for parenthetical disambiguation in similar cases, e.g. Attica (region), Batha (region), Bremen (state), Hidalgo (state), Lac (region), Tyrol (state) , Washington (state). Nurg (talk) 10:40, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Afar, Amhara and Somali are working as adjectives here, so I don't think those will work. I would suggest Afar region (Ethiopia) and Somali region (Ethiopia). Srnec (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  If already disambiguated with "(Ethiopia)", why would "region" need to be in these names at all?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:47, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Amhara and Tigray moves as harmless, but oppose Afar and Somali moves as confusing. (The Tigray region might be the primary topic for Tigray.) Srnec (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS, and numerous previous RMs of similar names, but with some potential other solutions on a case-by-case basis. If one or another of these would result in some ambiguity problem, consider just using the name without "region" if that name already redirects there (WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) and use disambiguation hatnotes which should already be present. If one or another of these is not actually used with the word "region" (but is nevertheless a region), then use "(region)" parenthetical disambiguation. If a national disambiguation works better, then use that: "Foo (Ethiopia)", etc. But there is no ambiguity or other argument to make in favor of "Foo Region" over "Foo region". The fact of the matter is that "region", when used with these names, is not consistently capitalized in sources, and that is the only question before us as to capitalization.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Technical note: Except for Somali, each of the three names (Afar, Tigray and Amhara) direct to a DAB page. In Some cases, there are articles on former administrative areas within Ethiopia with the same "primary" name. As I understand things, all of the pages for the modern administrative areas within Etiopia are titled "X region" - ie not just these four. This creates consistency in the naming across this category of articles. Such consistency is not mandatory but it is nonetheless nice to have. Furthermore, they appear to be based upon tribal areas, so there are articles that refer to the ethnic group of each tribe associated with each region and having the same name of the modern administrative region. These n-grams [5][6][7][8] show that the name of each region "X" is most typically rendered as "X region" - ie "X region" is both most common and natural. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Agreed: I agreed for small case if you put bracket like (region) on them. It is incompatible when you move region only. For example there is a country Georgia (country) and a U.S state Georgia (U.S. state). This is plausible to identify the region using brackets. The Supermind (talk) 05:06, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the example of "Georgia", the common name in each case is a single word. There are two place-holders for the same common name and disambiguation is required in such a case. Also, both have a similar status as to which would be the "primary" article. In this case, common name for the target is a bigram. It is for this reason (IAW the guidelines) that the bigram should be preferred over the parenthetic rendering. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Per MOS:CAPS. Most reputable sources don't capitalize "region" and if a consensus was reached in regards to the moving of the Oromia region page, then it should also by default expand to the other 9 ethnic regions of Ethiopia. However, I do prefer the "Somali (region), Afar (region) etc." approach that @Nurg: proposed. Dabaqabad (talk) 19:40, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Proper names. Albeit a bit weird. Propose instead "Afar Province" as a better translation. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Amharaic does not appear to have the nuance of "province" versus "section" or "region". Taking the cue from Arabic ar:ولاية_عفر. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not about how it is rendered in Amharaic, but how it is most often referred to in English language sources and how the most common rendering is capitalised. Do you have any evidence along these lines that would support an alternative English language name (with alternative capitalisation)? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 06:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is about the construction in Amharic, for the question of whether it is a proper name, and it is. It is not an Afar type of place, but is a place called Afar-Place, where “place” translates as “region” or “section”, but translates better as “province”. The country is divided into sections, and not by geography or directions, but by named places. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

“Province” is used a lot, but “Region” is used more. The local language doesn’t capitalise, but the local government uses English. Looking at https://www.ethiopia.gov.et/regional-states/afar-regional-state/, I suggest Afar Regional State. In any case, a proper name. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Region, would therefore appear to be more appropriate. Per WP:CRITERIA: Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. There is also WP:TRANSLITERATE and WP:ENGLISH. The guidance in each case is the we should rely on the English language sources to determine both the words used and the capitalisation (per WP:NCCAPS) applied to them. Further, WP:COMMONNAME applies over official name, providing that there are sources sufficient to determine a common name. So, it is immaterial that there might be an official English language name if there is an alternative and different English language common name. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:00, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Having read around more, and through the fairly disappointing reference list for answering this question, my assessment is:

• Afar Region (status quo). Good. This is a proper name name.
• Afar (region). Fair. Afar is a proper name, and it is a region of Ethiopia, but awkwardly, Regions of Ethiopia are treated with proper names.
• Afar. No. Ambiguous.
• Afar region. Justifiable on the basis of most frequent use some Google ngrams, but the status quo is justified as it is a proper name. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:34, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]