Talk:FBI search of Mar-a-Lago: Difference between revisions

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An item related to this article has been nominated to appear on the Main Page in the "In the news" section. You can visit the nomination to take part in the discussion. Editors are encouraged to update the article with information obtained from reliable news sources to include recent events.
Notice date: 9 August 2022. Please remove this template when the nomination process has concluded, replacing it with Template:ITN talk if appropriate.

this article needs a sourced rewrite

as this eventually becomes a featured article and a political science touchstone, you might as well get on it. Saintstephen000 (talk)— Preceding undated comment added 18:21, 9 August 2022

Title

Is "raid" the most commonly used term to describe this? I'm seeing a lot of sources using the term "search". 331dot (talk) 09:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. RS call it a search. When they use "raid", they are quoting Trump. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 August 2022

The request to rename this article to FBI search of Mar-a-Lago has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Raid of Mar-a-Lago → FBI search of Mar-a-Lago – Are any sources calling this a raid(other than Trump and sources reporting his quote)? 331dot (talk) 12:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am reluctant to just SNOW close this completely but there is clear early support, to say that it should be moved. However, this is an event that remains fluid and could have further developments (in other words how sources are describing it today may change with-in the 7 days of this RM). Further the discussion has literally only been open a few hours so while I am going to action a move based on the discussion so far - the move improves the encyclopedia - I would suggest discussion should continue for at least a while longer - and perhaps a full 7 days - to establish a firmer consensus. Note: a different editor performed this move while I was typing this close but had that not happened I would have done it after submitting this. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Support. More neutral and accurate title. Popcornfud (talk) 13:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, "search" definitely seems to be the most neutral term and is very commonly used: [1][2][3][4]. --Cerebral726 (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NPOVTITLE. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 14:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support for same NPOV reasoning as above. This would alleviate some of the concerns on the deletion discussion page. Rauisuchian (talk) 15:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - if the page isn't deleted, merged to Mar-a-lago, etc. GoodDay (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Let's call it what the reliable sources are calling it, not what Trump is calling it. Songwaters (talk) 16:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. Either name is fine. Andre🚐 16:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support and speedy close. This suggestion is an obvious improvement of objectivity and clarity. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support For accuracy. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 16:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per NPOV. Cullen328 (talk) 16:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose More neutral than what? The phrase Police raid is notable enough to have it's own wikipedia page. Raid is a common term used in at least 61 press releases published by the FBI. Furthermore, "FBI raid" appears on Wikipedia 170 times. Law enforcement raids are referenced thousands of times, as well. A majority of one lined answers does not equal consensus. If this move were to be made, an explanation as to why this non-controversial event were to receive special treatment over raids on Paul Nicholas Miller, Islamic slaughterhouses in Illinois, the North Texas Tollway Authority, the couple in the Harding street raid, the ETIM in Xinjiang, the mayor of Berwyn Heights Maryland, Mormon Fundamentalists in 1953, Congressman William J. Jefferson's offices in the Rayburn Building, the FBI Raid of Michael Cohen's Office and hundreds of others. There is no precedent for this move. To avoid the perception that this move is politically motivated, I humbly recommend that the above named individuals change their support to opposition. Kire1975 (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:NPOVNAME, Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to. Does anyone expect that more readers will choose to search the word "search" over "raid" to read about this event? If so, the burden is on those who support the change to state their reasons. Kire1975 (talk) 17:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
331dot asks Are any sources calling this a raid(other than Trump and sources reporting his quote)? Less than 24 hours later, a google search of "FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago" (with quotation marks) turns up 11,100 results. Reliable sources referring to it as a raid in the title alone include Fox News, The New Yorker, the Connecticut Post, Rolling Stone, CNBC, Slate, ABC11.com, the Orlando-Sentinel, the Miami-Herald, a press release by Rep. August Pfluger a member of Trump's own party and thousands more. Kire1975 (talk) 17:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:GHITS. "FBI search of Mar-a-Lago" produces over 32K. Also a Republican calling it a "raid" in a press release would indicate that the term fits their political purposes, i.e. is POV. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also I just read police raid, which focuses on arrests, of which there were none yesterday. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Police raid also includes to retrieve an important document or file as the second of three purposes of a raid in the Types section. Kire1975 (talk) 18:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's a reasonable point. My preference basically comes from a WP:PLAINENGLISH approach — "raid" sounds rather sensational and "search" seems to cover the same idea in plainer terms. Popcornfud (talk) 17:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Popcornfud, Would you prefer that we change the name raid to search on the hundreds of other wikipedia articles that use the word? For the record raid is a four letter word and search has six. What makes it "plainer" exactly? Kire1975 (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - more descriptive and neutral title. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 17:23, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Search" is a more neutral term than "raid", and is more commonly used in this instance. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the word "Search" is underwhelming and "Raid" is just a common a word in our vernacular, especially when law enforcement is involved. Also, Kire1975 has presented solid evidence of the use of "Raid" in reliable sources and Wikipedia articles. And as Kire1975 points out - readers are more likely to use the word "Raid." That's the word I used to find this page. The actual phrase was "FBI raid" and Wikipedia search did the rest. It produced "FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago." I just checked the search term again and it did the same thing. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 17:51, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I've even seen a legal analyst specifically arguing against calling this a "raid": "...the FBI executed a search warrant at Trump’s residence, Mar-a-Lago. Not a raid. No crashing in of doors or destruction of property. This is a judicially authorized proceeding, in which a federal judge independently reviews an FBI agent’s sworn affidavit and must conclude they agree that there is probable cause for the search." https://joycevance.substack.com/p/search-a-lago Brad (talk) 17:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The word “search” is more accurate, and is also more neutral-sounding that “raid”. Vida0007 (talk) 17:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Search is more vague. It implies consent. It also omits the legal element of seizure. That's not what happened here. Kire1975 (talk) 18:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion of close

Page has been moved back to its original name. Pinging @Pennsylvania2:. While a user did prematurely move the page, Barkeep mentions they would have done the move had the user not. Not sure if you saw this post by them on the talk page or not. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of creating a move war, I moved it back. I think @Pennsylvania2: may have missed this discussion, tbh. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 18:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rockstone, with respect, what was this so-called consensus based on? Kire1975 (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Read Barkeep's reasoning. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 18:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Rockstone: I did. Can you reformulate it? See my comment below, as well. Thanks. Kire1975 (talk) 18:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep49, with respect, if you could suggest discussion should continue for at least a while longer, what was the purpose of closing this discussion? Kire1975 (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kire1975 having a page be at a title that a large number of editors (far more than is typically needed to find consensus to move a page) feels best complies with our policy in the days that it is likely to have its highest single day views improves the encyclopedia in my view. Calling a 6 hour discussion sufficient to find consensus to just close it absolutely doesn't feel right. So I took this interim step to balance the competing ideas that there is sufficient consensus at this moment to move but that consensus could change over a longer period of time while improving the encyclopedia. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Continued move discussion

This is just a thought but what about "FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago? Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 19:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just leave it. Once it becomes clear which witch hunt this is associated with (the Jan 6 mostly peaceful protest, the document fiasco, IDK what other Democrat concoction) then the move should be to that article and most of this a section in it. If that's known now, then that's what the move ought be --LaserLegs (talk) 21:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Mar-a-Lago

No, we already had this discussion in the deletion discussion. Let's not beat a dead horse. (non-admin closure) --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 18:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TBH, this entire page should be merged into the Mar-a-Lago page. GoodDay (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

oppose merge event is notable in and of itself. Andre🚐 17:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support — Too early to make a dedicated page for this. Such an event can and should be merged until its contents distract from the actual content. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:22, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wait - the AfD was ruled no consensus. I think it's best to just wait and see if this remains notable for a standalone article. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 17:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant as AfD closer was no consensus to delete. Whether to merge, and where to, remains very much a question that can be discussed here. Sandstein 17:46, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This does and will satisfy the GNG criteria. This is a notable event. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 17:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Coverage in reliable sources is ongoing and is already entirely sufficient to support a freestanding article. Cullen328 (talk) 17:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Notable event that has a litany of sources and should have its own standalone article. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is an event that is notable enough for it's own article. But if nothing happens with this and it's been blown out of proportion then it should be merged. Maybe just give the article a cooling off period of a few days and see where this all settles. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 18:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Better photo

Can we get a better photo for the infobox? Any pics of the place during the night of the raid, with police cars outside? Koopatrev (talk; contrib) 21:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That would be the ideal photo. Right now, only shots that would be similar would be from local news media sources, but those aren't free use. I suppose they could be claimed under Fair Use, but that's not my expertise. Pictures from DOJ are going to eventually come out though and we can use those. Any have any suggestions for now? Pennsylvania2 (talk) 21:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 ===Continued move discussion===
 This is just a thought but what about "FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago? [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 19:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
+:Just leave it. Once it becomes clear which witch hunt this is associated with (the Jan 6 mostly peaceful protest, the document fiasco, IDK what other Democrat concoction) then the move should be to that article and most of this a section in it. If that's known now, then that's what the move ought be --[[User:LaserLegs|LaserLegs]] ([[User talk:LaserLegs|talk]]) 21:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 ==Merge to Mar-a-Lago==