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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thryduulf (talk | contribs) at 20:08, 23 May 2018 (→Suggestion to add: Other multi-national Olympic-style sporting events: close - consensus to add Commonwealth Games, consensus against adding the others). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Suggestion to add: Other multi-national Olympic-style sporting events

There is consensus in favour of adding the opening of the Commonwealth Games and consensus against adding the others. Thryduulf (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's four events that each occur every four years like the Olympics for multinational competition, but more region based:

I would suggest these can be ITNR, specifically a blurb to announce that they are occurring. Not an ongoing as the Olympics gets, as they don't get close to the same worldwide media coverage, but they are all significant events on their own, and effectively 1 additional ITNR a year is not going to break ITN. --Masem (t) 14:43, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Having evolved from the British Empire, on which the sun allegedly never set, it seems inaccurate to say the Commonwealth Games are a regional event. HiLo48 (talk) 00:29, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can't check right now but I thought the Commonwealth Games had been ITNR at one point? 331dot (talk) 14:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And (ironically, in a humorous manner, not mean-spirited) you had removed them from some discussion [1], which appears based on the first discussion at Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items/Archive 14 from 2014. There wasn't a proper conclusion here, but I think there might have been support to add this as ITNR-based ongoing items? --Masem (t) 19:50, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well that was interesting to find out. I would have no objection to you just restoring them (as I invited people to do back then) 331dot (talk) 20:02, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That actually provide three routes here (which, we should establish consensus so that we can track that better)
  1. do not restore. However, my impression of the current Commonwealth Games nom is that editors feel these games should be noted as long as the articles are properly improved/quality)
  2. restore for a blurb on their opening.
  3. restore for being an ongoing item.
There could be other options but it's a valid discussion point. --Masem (t) 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd be happy for the Commonwealth Games to be added. I don't think the European Games (which has only had one iteration to date, which I don't think was ITN posted) merits ITN/R status. I'll withhold judgement on the other two until I've had time to do proper research.
Also, I think it's worth adding to ITN/R how these items should be added. Specifically: at the start or close? And should the bold article be the main article on the Games or the one about the ceremony?
Personally I'd go for "start" and "main article". --LukeSurl t c 21:27, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support if they're on a sufficiently large scale. I'll add that there's also the Southeast Asian Games, although that looks pretty small in comparison to these. Banedon (talk) 22:45, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The current Commonwealth Games involve 71 nations, including the world's second most populous. That's clearly notable. The other three named at the start have obvious regional significance, for pretty big regions. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb for opening of Commonwealth, oppose others. There was an unfortunately low barrier to entry at ITNR in the past, but going forward we should require an event to prove its mettle at ITNC before we enshrine it at ITNR. The Asian Games, in particular, were proposed and rejected last time. 159.53.174.142 (talk) 11:36, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Commonwealth, oppose others - The Commonwealth Games have prestige and history behind them, and exceed the other three suggestions in scale, particularly for an Anglophonic audience such as the one we have at en.wiki. I would opt to oppose the rest as they are less significant, at least in my view (and this is coming from me in Ireland, where we don't compete in the Commonwealth Games). Stormy clouds (talk) 17:19, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Commonwealth, oppose others per Stormy Clouds. I'd personally like to see one pan-American game pass at ITN/C before landing at ITN/R. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just dug this out from archive. I think there is reasonable consensus to add the Commonwealth games. --LukeSurl t c 15:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Elections and Heads of State

WP:NAC: There is unanimous opposition to this proposal, and no further comments for over a week. Modest Genius talk 10:39, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggested add: "An election that otherwise meets the above criteria but is determined by consensus at ITN/C to be a "show election" would not automatically meet the importance criteria and should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on its own merits."

I would hold that a sham election is not inherently newsworthy per se. By requiring consensus on this point, we would only be excluding the most egregious examples. GCG (talk) 17:51, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can we objectively state what are show/sham elections? I fear this might be really hard. Eg some might consider the recent Chinese election be one. --Masem (t) 18:12, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. It is not for us to judge the legitimacy or fairness of an election. We present the information and let readers decide for themselves. You could find people who consider the 2016 US presidential election a sham because the person with the most popular votes did not win. If a "sham" election does not get much news coverage, it could be ignored as not being sufficiently in the news. 331dot (talk) 19:38, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We would not be not judging the legitimacy of the election as original research; we would be judging the notability of the event based on reports of its legitimacy in RS. If we all agree with the BBC, Reuters, et al that the Egyptian election was shady, we should be permitted to consider its notability in light of that. To blindly post "Incumbent Abdel Fattah el-Sisi wins the Egyptian presidential election, 2018" is not objective; rather it gives undue weight to the suggestion an true election took place. GCG (talk) 13:49, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Who would you trust then? There will also be sources which state that the election is legitimate. Banedon (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed Addition: Domestic Football Leagues

Currently, following Bayern Munich's successes in the Bundesliga, there has been a nomination made at WP:ITN/C to have it posted to the main page. This has conjured debate about the prominence of the domestic leagues, and whether or not they merit a place at ITN/R. At present, only the Premier League is listed, and this is a proposal to expand that. I feel that club football is underrepresented at ITN, and this proposal seeks to remedy this, as well as clarifying some things regarding how European club football operates, as there appears to be confusion about this.

However, given the sheer number of domestic leagues, posting some could cause an inundation of nominations, so we should define significance and importance here in this discussion. For the purposes of debate, I shall consider only the four most prominent leagues, as determined by their respective UEFA coefficients (given that these are calibrated based on performance in Europe, rather than prestige or importance, this is not ideal, but it is the fairest metric to apply in avoiding bias). At present, these leagues are:

I feel that there is an argument to be made that all of, or at least a subset of, these leagues warrant a place at ITN/R given their significance. Football/Soccer is the largest and most popular sport in the world, and is of major interest to our readership. As such, placing them on the main page fulfills the primary aim of ITN - To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news. As such, I feel that here is an appropriate forum to discuss the place of the aforementioned leagues with respect to ITN, and determine if any/all of them are to be added. Obviously, article quality would be crucial, but even then, articles on football tend to be respectable and in depth, particularly for major leagues, thanks to WikiProject Football, and given the plethora of media coverage are easy to cite.

N.B. - regarding the UEFA Champions League, a common misconception that arises at ITN is that this is a higher level league (a fault of the name, perhaps), and supersedes the domestic leagues, in a similar manner to how the Playoffs supersede the Divisions in the NFL. However, this is not the case - the Champions League, as well as the Europa League (another level down), are run by UEFA, a separate organisation, and take place during the domestic football season. They run concurrently, and are completely separate tournaments. The domestic leagues have prestige, history and prowess all on their own, and ultimately account for the bulk of a club's time during the season.
It is further worth noting that these leagues draw to a close around the same time as each other every year, opening the possibility for combined blurbs if space is required at ITN. Not crucial, and such blurbs have a tendency to be unwieldy, but worth noting nonetheless.

Let the much-needed discussion commence, I suppose. Stormy clouds (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - for what it is worth, I would support the accession of all three other leagues to ITN/R, but would be satisfied to see any of them make it, as all are noteworthy, significant contests. In descending order of significance, I would personally consider them, to the audience of en.wiki, PL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, but that is just my two cents. Stormy clouds (talk) 17:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I thought it had become established practice that an item pass at ITN/C before it goes up to ITN/R. Also, why only these four countries? Of the 55 UEFA members, whose national championships are "notable"? --LaserLegs (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, La Liga, for starters, has been posted on multiple occasions, and the four leagues picked have been determined by UEFA to be the most important (hence they are given four Champions League spots apiece), and would have the most prestige at international level. Stormy clouds (talk) 18:01, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If UEFA has indicated in an RS those four are the most notable, then it's a no-brainer. --LaserLegs (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As of this press release, additional spaces in the Champions League are given to the four highest ranked leagues, which are the ones listed above, according to this table. The additional significance of this quartet is clear in UEFA's eyes, they are given additional space to compete in UEFA's premier event, and as such are the league which I propose we add. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks. I'm still neutral because I think that sport is already overrepresented, and this isn't SportsPedia, and these events are already covered in the es, de and it wikis, and it stinks of Euro-centrism leaving out important leagues in Brazil and Argentina, instead of having "how odd" screamed at me over and over again, I'll drop it. Open wide for some soccer!!! --LaserLegs (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such requirement. A successful ITNC nomination can help suggest an ITNR, but you can start an ITNR without any ITNC if you can argue why it should be ITNR. --Masem (t) 18:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And yet, it's been an issue again, and again. --LaserLegs (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's different - if something has been put to ITNC and routinely not posted due to importance (not quality), then that works against its favor for an ITNR. But as you just gave as an example, consensus can also change. --Masem (t) 20:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly right, so lets see consensus at ITN/C, then it'll work in favor of this nom. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:26, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The clock has now started – how long before someone mentions that canoe frenzy in "London, England", TBR? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"canoe frenzy" I LOL'd. Thanks TRM. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I propose "TRM's Law" as a corollary to Godwin's Law for topics at ITN. The longer the discussion goes on for, the more likely the Boat Race will come up. --Masem (t) 21:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For such things TRM supports, the boat race. For things TRM opposes, gun violence in America. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem as I see it is that sport is inherently spirited. More than any other topic, editors actively seek out that criteria that reinforces their pre-conceived notion of any event's relevance. It takes little effort to find editors expounding and rejecting the same rationale as the topic movies from college basketball to college canoe frenzies. This will never be solved until we settle on some objective criteria. GCG (talk) 21:26, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • To me, ITN seems more suited to one-time events such as League Cups than to the results of a months-long season such as the EPL or Bundesliga. There's an inevitable minor bias towards events in English-speaking countries, and I'm fine with the status quo of only listing the EPL and Champions League on ITN/R. If there's a consensus against that, I'd support either adding La Liga and Bundesliga (Serie A and Ligue 1 feel less critical to me), or removing the EPL. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I've changed my mind. If we include the American NCAA football championship, we should include all of these leagues, and probably the French and Russian leagues as well (assuming there aren't practical issues with them all being decided at the same time). power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • We quite infamously DON'T include the American NCAA football championship, and no one is even suggesting adding the French and Russian leagues. Argentina should be next on this particular slippery slope. GCG (talk) 11:31, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. List of professional sports leagues by revenue says these are the top 4 non-American sports leagues in the World. That's for all sports and not just football. Revenue and public interest are closely related. They are also the best football leagues in the World (Brazil might interfere, hard to compare due to lack of matches). Europe has the best leagues because they can buy the best players. UEFA coefficient#Current ranking shows these 4 leagues are well ahead of number 5. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:42, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support as long we are clear that these four are picked because the UEFA has clearly identified them as the four key national tourneys, and thus why we don't need to include the other 30-some, and do not expect to include ITNCs from these other national ones (Barring unique circumstances), then this seems reasonable. I'm worried someone's going to accuse us of bias here, hence that if this is indeed added, we need to be clear about the UEFA's importance in the ITNR text blurb. --Masem (t) 21:54, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which would mean what for South America (no true football fan could deny the S.American influence and importance to the game). Where would the Brasilian & Argentinian leagues (the top ones down there) come? The UEFA UK/Italy/Spain/Germany connection is less about quality and more about money. UEFA makes most of its funding from competition broadcast rights. To do that it must have the teams from the most populous and football-watching countries competing in order to justify the cost and make sure bids are high. UEFA also (unsurprisingly) invests the most money in those countries. Its a far more complicated relationship than 'UEFA just thinks they are the best'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 02:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support La Liga, EFL and Bundesliga but oppose Serie A. Domestic football is a big deal, dominates the attention of the sports pages and very often becomes front page news for various reasons. It's inherently arbitrary which leagues we make ITN/R and which we don't. Some leagues are clearly bigger deals than others (in terms of attendance, TV audiences, revenue or attracting top talent from other countries), but even then there's no unarguable way of ranking. For me, the list goes La Liga, EFL, Bundesliga, Serie A/Ligue 1 -- and the arbitrary line of ITN/R-ness qualifies the top 3 but that's just my 2 cents.
For what it's worth, I'm relatively satisfied that the Euro-centric nature of this is a reflection of the state of the sport - although South America has many great players, they tend to play for European clubs (for example, see the clubs of the current Brazil squad) --LukeSurl t c 09:58, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Serie A has more ghits than all the other leagues, I'm not so sure. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 07:20, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'm perfectly okay with this, but we need to reopen the discussion on College Football, whose revenue dwarfs these leagues. GCG (talk) 11:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Propose removal then. This is Europedia after all, we can't have something from the United States on the main page. --LaserLegs (talk) 15:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't really care where we draw the line, but we need to apply the same standard to Europe and the US. GCG (talk) 13:02, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, this is nothing to do with Europe vs the US, this is to do with a global sport which has a truly international audience, including those of us outside Spain, Germany and Italy who actually watch La Liga, Bundesliga and Serie A. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thank you for making my point for me. ITN policy of course precludes opposing "an item because the event is only relating to a single country," yet this is routinely used to oppose the CF nomination. The other major points are that it's amateur (yet we post amateur boat frenzies, basketball and the Olympics) and that it's second tier; this nom is quite explicitly enshrining three more second tier competitions in ITNR. ghost 12:29, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support adding these 4 leagues' season winners exclusively as ITN/R. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 07:20, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Cricket is the 2nd most popular sport in the world, so are we going to do similar ITN/R listing for multiple domestic T20 cricket leagues? I guess not. Moreover, these leagues culminate around the same time which will result in an all-football ITN. Even if it's a combined blurb, it would be too cluttering. Also, why the four most prominent leagues? Why not just three or may be five most prominent leagues? --Uncle Sargam (talk) 14:15, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Let it stew for a while, and I believe sport is already overrepresented, and this isn't SportsPedia, and these events are already covered in the es, de and it wikis, and it stinks of Euro-centrism leaving out important leagues in Brazil and Argentina. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really, we've already noted that all the best players in the whole world play in Europe, and that the best clubs in the world are in Europe and the best football in the world is played in Europe. Even FIFA recognise that. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Six members of this years man-city squad were from non-EU countries. I imagine there are a few more footballers than that in all of South America. "We collected the best players, so just ignore the rest of the world." Euro-centric bias at it's finest. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:31, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Irrelevant. Many members of the All Blacks are from the Cook Islands, but no-one cares about how well the Cook Islands rugby team are doing. It's not about the origins of the players, it's about the competitions in which they play. It's not "Euro-centric bias at it's (sic) finest", it's about reporting news items that of interest to our readers, and since our readers are interested in the finest football the world can offer, that'd be found in the top four leagues in Europe and nowhere else. Even FIFA agree with that. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:40, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @LaserLegs: - We post the Super Bowl as the elite level of American football, ignoring players in other nations, even when some very talented, Super Bowl-winning players, originate elsewhere - see Sebastian Vollmer for an example. Your rationale could just as easily be applied in this scenario, or for the NBA and Tony Parker, and is ergo redundant. TRM is also correct in his assertions in my view. Stormy clouds (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's one point as part of a whole. My point is you want to post five soccer games a year, ALL from the EU ... when there are top leagues fielding top players in South America which are getting no mention. Neither of those statements is true of "American football" or of basketball. Eurocentic bias I'm afraid, plain and simple. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:28, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not quite. We want to post the results of the top five association football leagues in the world. There are no better leagues in South America, North America, Asia, Africa, or Australasia. It's fact. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It’s a fact that elite football is centred on Europe, and these are the four biggest leagues both in terms of history and UEFA coefficient. Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support La Liga, Premier League & Bundesliga but oppose Serie A. Those are the three top leagues in the world and whilst there's no clear dividing line, Serie A isn't the force it used to be. You could argue it's no better than the French or even Dutch leagues. I'm comfortable with three domestic tournaments for the world's most popular sport, but let's not go overboard. Modest Genius talk 10:29, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support La Liga and Bundesliga but not Serie A. La Liga, Premier League, and Bundesliga are the three strongest leagues in the world, and as an American I can attest that they are the only three that receive regular television coverage on national TV networks in the United States, which is just one piece of evidence for their global reach. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen Serie A on antenna TV in New York City. It might've been Univision, Telemundo or Azteca though (Spanish language channels). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:24, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, and would also support Ligue 1 per PrimeHunter. By revenue, these are the #4, #6, #7, #8, and #10 sports leagues in the world right now; and in Europe they're routinely referred to as the "Big Five." We post the winners of every other league in the top 10. There is the danger of regionalism, but there are no other leagues that really compete in terms of revenue. However, I would be willing to add the Copa Libertadores for South American representation, and while I'm currently a weak oppose on the Campeonato Brasileiro, I'd be willing to consider that as well. (NorthernFalcon (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC))[reply]
"We post the winners of every other league in the top 10." uhmmmm no, we don't actually. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The remaining five are NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and Formula One. To my knowledge we do post all of those. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 03:02, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I understand your comment now. In that case, do you have some ref to back your list of "the top 10 sports leagues" --LaserLegs (talk) 00:39, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It referred to my posting of List of professional sports leagues by revenue. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the thing people seem to be missing is we post American baseball, and Japanese baseball. American Football and Canadian football. Australian Rubgy and some other rugby. We get some regional diversity that way. You want to post five European national leagues, and the FA cup. Come on. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Change: Timing of ITN sports postings

Propose to change second clause "Every entry applies to the conclusion of the men's and women's events (when simultaneous) in the tournament or series, unless otherwise specified" to "unless the outcome is determined earlier by unassailable lead."

From time to time, the gap is so great it would be silly to wait (see current EPL gap of 28 days). Also, with the addition of three Euro football leagues, this might help space out the postings. ghost 13:49, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - 'tis only logical, and was applied in the posting of the Bundesliga this year. Stormy clouds (talk) 15:17, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support literally no-one will report that Man City have won the league in five games time. It is news now, and as such should be posted now. The proposed re-wording is a good start to solving that. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think it would be logical and obvious that we're talking if the m/w events ended within a day or two to post them at the same time; anything more than 7 days is silly since one event is effectively stale. But if clarity is needed, so be it. --Masem (t) 15:31, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It will be old news by May, and all the European football leagues finish at more or less the same time so we'd be dealing with four noms in a week if we wait until the end of the season.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, that nicely counters some of the opposition in the above section who are concerned about four leagues' results being posted in one hit... The Rambling Man (talk) 15:37, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support We should post items when they are in the news and not at some arbitrary date. If the results are a foregone conclusion, there's no need to wait. --Jayron32 16:30, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose removal of note about women's events. Jayron32 is right, post it when it's in the news. --LaserLegs (talk) 16:53, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support seems sensible as this is when items are "in the news". --LukeSurl t c 17:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC) -- I reconsidered --LukeSurl t c 12:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle but some care is needed if the quality of the article changes substantially between nomination and conclusion of the tournament. For example suppose 2017-2018 EPL article is rejected now on quality grounds, but a few weeks later when the last game is played, is in good shape. Post or stale? Banedon (talk) 02:55, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:28, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I'm surprised this is getting unanimous support, because there are situations which go both ways. As an example, take a Formula One season where the manufacturer's champion is determined two races before the driver's champion. Do we really post it twice? Better to wait for the end of the season and post both together. Another example would be the Six Nations recently - posting when Ireland were unassailable would have meant doing so a week before we knew whether they were going to win the Grand Slam, which would be an important facet worth mentioning in the blurb. The idea that the rest of the games don't matter once the champion is decided is inimical to the entire idea of round-robin leagues; we're not posting these stories just to name the champion, but to highlight the results of the entire competition. If we posted the Premier League now, we could state who the champions were, but the article would be woefully incomplete because the relegation & European qualification places have not yet been resolved. Overall I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer here, but at least for leagues (as opposed to knockout tournaments) it makes sense to wait more often than it does to post early. Modest Genius talk 10:35, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
EPL should be posted now. I'm not a rugby fan; is winning a Grand Slam significantly newsworthy when it happens long after the competition is settled? Ideally the language should allow common sense to prevail. As much as there is any point to having ITN in the greater context of WP, we should endeavor to only post stories that are actually in the news. ghost 12:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a Grand Slam is significant and newsworthy. And generally speaking, the Six Nations doesn't wrap until the last round of games in any case. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose per Modest Genius and TRM. We should wait until the conclusion of the tournament so that we only need to post once. "Unassailable" leads can be overturned in some cases by penalty points, disciplinary issues, exceptional performances by other teams (Team A wins unless Team B win all their matches by at least 20 points and Team A lose by more than 30, the average winning margin is 10 points but the incredible happens), etc. Banendon also makes a good point about article quality - we typically (and rightly) require a prose summary of the complete tournament but this is not possible in many cases until the season is complete - grand slams, record margins of victory, career-ending injury to the greatest player in history, first ever tie-break required to determine second place, etc, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 11:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on instruction creep grounds. Maybe there are cases where this is appropriate, and cases where it isn't, and that may vary from tournament to tournament, or even from year to year with the same event. It should be discussed when nominated or specified with the ITNR listing(as the instructions currently state). 331dot (talk) 11:51, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My intent was actually the opposite of creep: to remove the handcuff and allow the consensus to decide what is appropriate. ghost 14:52, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Thryduulf. Teams are not officially crowned champions after attaining unassailable leads, and ITN should generally not be declaring unofficial results. As an encyclopedia, having our news be official is more important than being quick. The recent case of this year's Premier League demonstrates that the relevant articles are better after the season is over because they can describe and summarize the entire season, which is more than just which team is the champion. Though the blurb may just name the champion, the purpose of posting should be to provide users with a link to an overview of the entire season. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Support. We shouldn't apply a blanket template to all sports when different sports follow different customs. In soccer it's traditional to crown the champions as soon as they obtain an unassailable lead, but that's not true in other sports. For sports that crown the champion immediately, post it immediately; for sports that wait until the end of the season, wait until the end of the season. And as noted by GreatCaesarsGhost, it would be overkill to post the winners of four or five different European soccer leagues at the same time, so doing it this way would space it out a bit more. For other sports like Formula One or Six Nations, they can wait until the end of the season if that makes more sense for those leagues. (NorthernFalcon (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC))[reply]
  • Comment: I think this year's Premier League posting is a great example of why we should wait until leagues finish before posting. It was originally nominated when Man City's lead became unassailable but not posted, then renominated and posted when the season concluded. In that time a) the season summary went from being a couple of uninformative paragraphs that almost entirely concentrated on City, to a detailed summary of the entire season covering all the clubs; b) the European qualification places were settled; c) the relegation places were settled; d) Man City broke a bunch of team records (most wins in a season, first team to 100 points etc.) that were worth highlighting to readers; e) the individual records (top goalscorer, player of the season etc.) were decided. As a result the article improved massively and was far more useful to readers, particularly those who don't already follow the league closely. The IRN blurb led readers to detailed information about all aspects of the season, not just the identity of the winners i.e. clicking on the bold link led to high quality content and more information than what was in the blurb itself. It was much better to wait. Modest Genius talk 11:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - current status quo gives flexibility. No need for more instruction. --LukeSurl t c 12:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion: pop culture/blockbusters

Considering ITNR has many yearly events listed, I wonder how come pop-culture things are completely excluded. For example there are several block-buster movies that come out every few years, which amass more business than 90% of the sports listed now, but any proposal even at ITNC are immediately shut down. Under what sort of rationale/conditions could you see successful block-buster movies like the current Avengers 3 or Star Wars 8 get on ITNC/ITNR? (Something that comes out every 2 or so years). Nergaal (talk) 07:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If the record for revenue from a movie is frequently broken, it isn't that meaningful a record. Looking up when Star Wars:The Force Awakens was discussed for posting(for breaking the opening weekend revenue record) it was mentioned that if it broke the all time earnings record currently held by Avatar, it might merit posting. I would tend to agree. 331dot (talk) 08:37, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very sympathetic to such nominations. However I don't think there's a useful way to set fixed criteria at ITNR for these, this would need to be dealt with case-by-case at ITNC. --LukeSurl t c 08:44, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Removal: All badminton events

Badminton is a relatively obscure sport that is rarely covered in general sports media. Kaldari (talk) 07:33, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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