Talk:Ballon d'Or

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This article says: "Ballon d'Or is widely regarded as the most prestigious individual award in football." This is untrue!! Here in brasil, FIFA's prize is much more valued than Ballon d'Or. this statement is very subjective, and should be substituted for "as one of the most prestigious", or "the most prestigious in Europe".

189.70.36.195 22:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think it is subjective. It doesn't say that it "is" the most prestigious prize, it says that it is "widely regarded" as such. Those are two different things. I understand that FIFA's award can be regarded by some as bigger award since it refers to "world" player of the year, but Ballon d'or also counts all players from around the world since 2007. And also because Ballon d'Or started in 1950s and FIFA WPOTY award started in 1991, so this award is much older. You can also read on this page on goal.com that they say that FIFA's award is arguably a bit less important.[1]

Just because it is not he boldest claim possible ("is" the most prestigious) does not mean it is not subjective. Having read that link, I think its good that you found a source, but ultimately, it is still an arbitrary decision...the writer did not substantiate his point at all. After all, who is "Steve Michaels?" Find an article that addresses the main difference between the awards (Baloon is voted by writers, while FIFA is voted by coaches) and uses THAT as justification for valuing the Baloon d'Or more and I'll defend the claim. Until then, I'm taking it out. Jairuscobb 22:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I just read an article in a Brazillian website that says "A conquista da Bola de Ouro é um bom indício para Kaká na disputa do prêmio de Melhor do Mundo da Fifa. Desde 1991, quando foi criado o troféu concedido pela entidade máxima do futebol, nove vencedores da Bola de Ouro foram eleitos o Melhor do Mundo". In English, it means "The premiation of the Ballon d'Or is a good omen for Kaká in the quest for the prize of FIFA World Player of the Year. Since 1991, when the trophy given by the greatest football entity was created, nine winners of Ballon d'Or were elected Word Players". And that is the Brazillian mentality, Ballon d'or is nothing but a step closer to FIFA's prize.

link: http://esportes.terra.com.br/futebol/europeu2007/interna/0,,OI2118647-EI9974,00.html

189.70.82.150 19:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• And what about many other countries in the world that think otherwise? [2][3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.94.114.153 (talk)

Well, I am saying it isn't the most prestigious everywhere, and it isn't. It may be the most prestigious in England or France, but not in all the world, as the article was saying. So, you should change to "the most prestigious in Europe" 189.70.87.115 18:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone. I just found sources which say that Kaka has won [4] [5], and I started updating the page, which probably wasn't a good idea. In any case, as things stand now, everything regarding Kaka winning has been updated (ie, nation/club medal counts, etc.). So no need to add it all again when the victory becomes official on the 2nd. Sorry about that.

Jairuscobb (talk) 05:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I noticed that the information about Kaka has already been taken down once. Please, I know it was a mistake to put it up in the first place, but now that I've already updated everything, please don't take it down, otherwise, the medal counts and what not will probably end up double counted, which we all want to avoid.

Jairuscobb (talk) 02:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AIUI, a separate award given to the player of the tournament in World Cup finals is also called the Golden Ball. Possibly some disambiguation and a new page needed?

I made a disambiguation page at Golden Ball, in stead of the redirect page that was there earlier. --Salmon 13:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because the award count from January to December, the club section may have two clubs i think. Matthew_hk tc 06:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree Blogdroed 22:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree. Fabio Cannavaro won the award playing with two clubs and should be recognised in the article as such. Niall123 22:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree. But I think it should be assigned to the club he played in the season before the award (i.e., for Cannavaro, listing only Juventus). --Attilios 23:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Im surprised that none of the mighty magyars have ever won the european player of the year

I made the table which shows top 3 for each year. FIFA WPOTY has one too, so I see no reason why this award, which is more important than FIFA’s, wouldn’t have it. I used information from the RSSSF’s site and compared their information with Wikipedia’s. They listed clubs that a player was a member of only in the second part of the year (which is what officially counts after all), but I also added clubs from the first part of the year. I used information from Wikipedia, so it should be correct. The only mistake that I found on RSSSF site is about Raymond Kopa - they state that he was playing for Stade Reims at the end of 1956, and for Real Madrid at the end of 1959. However, I found on Wikipedia and a few other sites that he moved to Real in the summer of 1956, and returned to Stade Reims in the summer of 1959. So that is the only thing that I corrected in the top 3 table as well as in 2 tables below (‘’medals by club’’ and ‘’medals by league’’). In ‘’medals by players’’, I decided to put only players who won at least 2 medals, because the complete list would be way too long, and unnecessary, since their names can be found above. Someone keeps making changes to ‘’wins by club’’, and putting Barcelona on top, even though Luis Figo and Ronaldo didn’t play there when they won the award. That’s incorrect. RSSSF made all their rankings for clubs and leagues according to what club players played for when they won the award, or finished 2nd/3rd. That club/league is what France Football OFFICIALLY counts, whether someone likes it or not. I kindly ask that user not to make those incorrect changes any more. Thanks. Maja123456 12:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For lots of these players who Real Madrid are given credit for here, they earned the honour while they were at other clubs. For example Fabio Cannavaro was awarded player of the year after playing a season for Juventus and winning the World Cup with Italy. Why on earth should Madrid get the credit for that? - Soprani 20:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Says on his page that Cannavaro started playing for Madrid on July 25th...thats a good chunk of a season before the award is released in December. And if you are arguing that his Madrid results were not the ones which "earned" him the award, I would argue, neither was his time at Juventus or anything besides his World Cup Play (ie. take out his play in Germany, and is he even in the discussion for the award? I hardly follow football, but my guess is no. That's not to say that he didn't play well outside of those seven matches, but I think they disproportionately helped his cause at the Year End Awards, with good reason), but the award doesn't discriminate that way. So what's the problem...? Jairuscobb (talk) 11:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it turns out you aren't a real person...nevermind all that. Jairuscobb (talk) 11:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

São Paulo F.C goalkeeper, Rogerio Ceni been nominated this year for this award and he plays for a South American team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.152.4.232 (talk) 12:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

France Football now includes players from every league. I think that the title of the page should now be changed back to "Ballon d'Or" instead of "European Player of the Year" because it doesn't refer to Europe in any way (nationality or league) any more. Miht09 14:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)Miht09[reply]

I agree. However, I have no idea how to go about it. Do we keep adding to this list with a new title, or does this count as a new award now? Hard to say that Platini and van Basten have won the same award as Kaka... Jairuscobb (talk) 05:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, everyone considers it to be the same award. Even if they included a couple of players from leagues outside of Europe, it won't change the fact that players from European leagues remain biggest favourites to win it. This change now is a minor change compared to that of 1995 when they included players from outside of Europe, so that for example South American or African players became eligible, and they have won it many times since then. If France Football didn't say it was a different award in 1995, then there's no reason to consider it a different award now. All winners since 1956 until now, including Kaka, won the same award. You can find it here http://www.francefootball.fr/FF/ballon_or/index_bo.html. IMHO the title should be left like it is (World Footballer of the Year) or maybe even better, "Ballon d'Or" so that it would include both the years when it referred to "Europe" and from now on, years when it refers to all leagues in the world. Miht09 (talk) 16:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, it is refreshing to see such logic on wikipedia. You've won me over...do as you wish

Jairuscobb (talk) 11:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article should be reverted back to "Ballon d'Or" because then it becomes too associated and confusing with the "FIFA World Player of the Year" award, what do you think?.... Muppeteer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.57.208 (talk) 21:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer Ballon d'Or or even Golden Ball to European Footballer of the Year, which this award clearly is not anymore. Nach0king 08:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the table which shows the winners, should there be an extra column which shows what position on the field the players played in at the time they won the award? Sera404 (talk) 14:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this article he is regarded as a Spanish player. While it is true that he has a Spanish citizenship I think he should be regarded as Argentine, the country where he was born. I admit that he played more games for Spain than Argentina, but he had an Argentine nationality before his Spanish one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.133.170.43 (talk) 06:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He acquired Spanish citizenship in 1956 (as the article notes) so he won the award as a Spanish national. Anyone worth their salt knows that Di Stefano was born in Argentina anyway, so why go to lengths to point this out even more? Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 12:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, Messi also acquired Spanish citizenship and he is listed as Argentine. It seems inconsistent to list one as a Spanish citizen and the other as an Argentine. This matters because Spain is counted with more players than it should and Argentina should get more. 141.133.169.134 (talk) 07:06, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a fair point but I don't think that Messi is going to be joining Torres, Xavi and Casillas any time soon. On the other hand, di Stefano's international record speaks for itself. The players are listed by their footballing nationality, hence the lack of a United Kingdom flag. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 07:36, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Di Stefano's citizenship, It would be correct to adress him as Argentine, to call him Spanish, he would have had to become Naturalized Spanish, instead of having dual citizenship. Naturalization is the process where a person renounces to his/her own nationality to aquire another country's nationality in it's full form, while citizenship at least in the case of Spanish citizenship, allows the person to keep his/her own nationality as long with the newly aquired one. In the case of Di Stefano, I don't really know what's wrong but the person who set him as Spanish keeps insisting on mantaining it that way, that considering this person is English and the connotations of it, is one of the reason's why I consider it unfair to keep it that way, is a statement that is untrue, and doesn't make any justice to sportists nor coutries like Argentina. I don't think it is a good thing to keep the article the way it is, because those people were making really big efforts for their countries, specially Argentines who love football and is one of their only joys in this world where the stronger opresses the weaker and the poorer has to forget about his rights in front of the richer, in a place like wikipedia something like this is an absolute disgrace, because those awards talk about people's hard work, people who devoted their lives to sports and millions of fans who had hopes on them.

About Messi, he's also a dual citizen, probably because he's alive this person doesn't set him as Spanish national. I hope this article is corrected, because is a wrong statement about Argentine football writen with a harmful intenttion considering footbalistic rivalities with England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.45.8.69 (talk) 00:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can complain about unfairness all you want but the reality is that ol' Freddy chose to play for Spain. If you want to blame someone, then its him, Franco and the Argentine FA. Everybody knows Di Stefano is Argentine, but his footballing nation at that point was Spain. He was playing for the Spanish national team – Argentina told him to bugger off and they didn't want him to play for their national team.

The Messi argument is a nothing argument: has Messi played five times as many games for Spain as he has for Argentina? No. The comparison is a poor one. The nationality column refers to footballing nationality. Hence why Mark Lawrenson, if he were here, would have the Irish flag even though he's English. This isn't some attempt to "claim" Di Stefano as Spanish. Only an idiot would claim that. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{WIKIPROJECT ATHLETICS NEEDS YOU!} 01:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

O lol, Wish I'd knew before who I was talking to,cause this is you:

http://media.skateboard.com.au/forum/images/chavs3.jpg

nice vocabulary, maybe you' ll get your degree! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.45.8.69 (talk) 03:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, you've got it all wrong: this is me. Y no merece mucho el vocabulario en ingles a mi universidad, pero me ayuda a veces. Zing. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{WIKIPROJECT ATHLETICS NEEDS YOU!} 14:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi guys, I'm the one that started this complaint and I have to say that we should leave it the way it is, for two reasons a) the footballing nation argument seems to apply to other footballers, making it consistent to have Di Stefano apply to the same rules b) until 1995 only European players were eligible, so if Di Stefano weren't Spanish he would have never been chosen (also why Maradona never won it)

However, the Argentine in me says maybe we can give him and players like him a double nationality rather than a single one, since this would make it 'fair'. This would rise all kinds of logistical problems though, mainly with the tables.

On the other hand, maybe we should clarify at some point in the article that Country and Nationality refer to Footballing Country and Footballing Nationality, to avoid future confusions 200.114.226.74 (talk) 03:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Di Stefano and Sivori, double. Argentine flag must be included. My vote. Lucio Garcia 15:17, 13 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucio Garcia (talk • contribs)

If Di Stefano and Sivori had been considered Argentines at the time when they won their awards, they would not have even been considered for the award as it was only for European footballers until 1995. Your vote is ignored. – PeeJay 15:38, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Your vote is ignored?" Who do you think you are??? Whatever, do what you want. They are Argies like me, you talk with reglaments, ok I see the point, but your brain "ignores" some other points. Bye. --Lucio Garcia 16:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucio Garcia (talk • contribs)

This is sad. Some people (I strongly suspect Spanish) keep insisting Di Stefano should have the Spanish flag but there is no evidence that he consider himself Spanish. The majority of people get citizenship to access services but Nationality is a different issue. He never resigned his Argentine Nationality so changing his flag for Spanish Nationality is arbitrary. The fact that he acquired a Spanish Citizenship does not mean he is not Argentine. Without evidence whether he consider himself Spanish rather than Argentine it doesn't make sense to change the flag to Spanish. The ruling before 1995 is irrelevant since the table is for information purposes (showing the Nationality of the person). He was born Argentine, he is Argentine, and he will probably die Argentine. Anything else is speculative and without a proper citation it should not be considered valid. And by the way, the current citation link does not even work). I tried to modify this but somebody with lots of sentiment and little basis modify this back to the previous version. I won't play back and forth with some crazy fanatic. Seriously guys, how long have he been in Spain? 60 years? Can't you just tell by his accent he is still Argentine? Don't be sad. Be more patient, eventually you'll have a great player (otherwise you still have Butragueño, jeje) ~~Mastropiero5

This is not an issue of what nationality a player considers himself to be; it is an issue of the nation the player was affiliated to when he won the award. Di Stefano had already been playing for Spain for two years when he came second in the 1956 Ballon d'Or vote, and he never played for another national team after that, so why - in a footballing sense - should he not be considered Spanish? – PeeJay 20:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that he never stopped being "affiliated" to Argentina (if one can say that). He was still Argentine back then, and he still is. He was both Argentine and had a Spanish citizenship. Certainly there is room for debate about what flag to put. However, given this lack of a proper rule it is not appropriate to impose the Spanish flag and as I said before, the Argentine flag is more sensible unless good evidence is provided he favored one or the other. Let me rephrase your question then. Why should he not be considered Argentine? And beside, for god sake, do generally Spanish people consider immigrants with Spanish passport to be really Spanish? ~~Mastropiero5 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.182.176 (talk) 16:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is more simple to end whit this problem according that Di Stefano and Sivori have both Nationalities (Arg/spa in case of Di Stefano, and arg/Ita in case of Sivori) Is not fair if in both cases we have to chose only one Nationality. Well that is my solution, in my opinion if you like the idea everibody can be calm and proud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.30.3.227 (talk) 04:23, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at this objectively then di Stefano should be listed as Spanish for the following reasons:

• At that point the award was only applicable to European players, so if he was considered Argentinean then he would not be eligible.

• Nationality here refers to national football team not citizenship/birth nationality, etc.

Nobody is denying that he is Argentinean but from a footballing perspective he is Spanish. Zarcadia (talk) 21:29, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Im not telling that di Stefano should be not listed as Spanish because he is one in part, im just saying that he also shoud be appear as argentine, because since this award can be recived to any football player in the world that play in europe, Argentina and the others countries in the world fight for that his players can win this trophy. When di Stefano and Sivori win this award they were boht in the past only Argentines and in some years of theirs carres they bohts play for Argentina national football team and won championships, and when France Football determinate that any player in the world can win this tropy, in my opinion is more fair, if we share the gondel ball awards whit the origyn nationlity, not only in di Stefano and Sivori cases, in all the cases of two nationalities, european and not european, origyn national football team and not origyn national football team. IS JUST SHARE BEWTEEN BOHTS COUNTRIES OR NATIONALS FOOTBALL TEAMS, AS YOU PREFER. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.30.3.227 (talk) 02:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Winners table currently says Andresito Iniesta won in 2008 though Cristiano Ronaldo won. Suspicious winning votes of "uncountable" makes it obviously fan vandalism. I don't know how many votes Ronaldo got in winning though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flintrhino (talk • contribs) 06:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism is now reverted. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 15:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Zidane did not win it in 1997 (Ronaldo), 1999 (Rivaldo), or 2000 (Luis Figo) http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy.html Regretfully my editing skills do not extend to being able to correct this without cocking up the formatting so would be grateful if somebody could assist.

Robinr22 (talk) 11:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to PeeJay2K3 for correcting Robinr22 (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A new chapter in football was opened with the news that France Football’s Ballon d’Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year award have been merged. FIFA President Joseph S. Blatter signed an agreement with Amaury Group President Marie-Odile Amaury in Johannesburg on Monday, meaning that the world’s best player will from now on be awarded the FIFA Ballon d’Or each year. [6] --Corwin of Amber (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think a new article should be created, similar to how these two articles (Football League First Division & Football League Championship) are kept separate. - Yk (talk) 12:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the analogy is quite right, but I do agree that a new article should be created. – PeeJay 12:15, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Will the information on here and on the FIFA World Player of the Year be used on the new article? La Fuzion (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on whether FIFA includes the history of either award in the history of the current award. If they start the list of winners of the FIFA Ballon d'Or with this year's winner, then I should say that info from this article and FIFA World Player of the Year should be left out. – PeeJay 21:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Go to google, yahoo, ask, whatever, and type "European Footballer of the Year" and "Ballon d'Or". You will find the great bulk of articles and news that comes around use the English translation of the award; that qualifies it perfectly to change its title to "European Footballer of the Year" per WP:NC. MaxO1897 (talk) 12:20, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please have a look at Talk:Ballon d'Or#Requested move. The article was renamed to Ballon d'Or a couple years ago following a formal request. Favonian (talk) 12:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I did see that. Besides being irrelevant now, the change was wrongly injustified. MaxO1897 (talk) 12:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is plagued with eurocentrist bias regarding the aspect of nationality. It's hardly arguable that the nationality of a player is determined by the national team they were playing for at the time of winning the award. Specially since many of the awards were given for performances at club level, not national team.

Using more important aspects such as culture, accent, place of growth and most of all self identification, seem much more apropiate way to determine nationality.

By the way, Calling an Argentine with an italian surename and a thick porteño accent who first set foot in Spain aged 28 Spanish is downright ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.20.54 (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How would you define someone's culture/accent/self-identification in an encyclopaedic context? We can't exactly go around asking every footballer in the world what nationality they consider themselves to be, and even then it probably wouldn't be considered to be a legitimate source for use here. If someone is playing for a particular national team, then surely their nationality must be of that country? Oh, and I assume you're talking about Di Stefano there: didn't he take Spanish citizenship? – PeeJay 23:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So 2010 shouldn't appear here anympore but on FIF Ballon d'Or? -Koppapa (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. FIFA World Player of the Year‎ and Ballon d'Or merged to become FIFA Ballon d'Or. Unfortunately various editors are including 2010 results into the old award articles when they should be (and have been correctly) added to 2010 FIFA Ballon d'Or. Zarcadia (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced about this move to a new page. Everybody is saying Messi has won 2 prices, but he will appear as having won one ballon d'or and one fifa ballon d'or with this system. It looks to me (and apparently to all the media who published the results today) that the FIFA ballon d'or is the continuation of the ballon d'or (ex: complain of the spanish of not having won since 1960), so it looks to me like a bad idea to separate the articles. People will always want to know if Messi has won more ballon d'or (of whatever type) than Johan cruyff, and so on... BTW, I'm not convinced either of the "referred to as the European Footballer of the Year award" since starting in 2007 any player in any club in the world could be a candidate, and the "The most recent recipient of the Ballon d'Or is Lionel Messi, the second Argentine to win the award, but the first as an Argentine citizen": shouldn't he be the third to win the award, first as argentine citizen (the other 2 being Di Stefano and Sivori)? Bertou (talk) 04:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You got a point there. But as the FIFA Ballon d'Or not only succeeds the Ballon d'Or but also the FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year, you would have to included those titles in the totals too, if you include the Ballon d'Or ones. -Koppapa (talk) 08:46, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with Bertou, the new award is a merger of the two seperate awards FIFA World Player of the Year and Ballon d'Or, the pages for those awards should stop at 2009 with this years (2010) and any future awards added to the correct page FIFA Ballon d'Or. Zarcadia (talk) 10:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, you may strongly disagree, but this does not answer the question I raised. If you read any newspaper article (at least in the 3 from Argentina, 1 from France, 3 from Spain, and 1 from UK I read), Messi is always refered to as winning his second title, and with comparison of other people winning ballon d'or. In some sense, what the FIFA did was to merge 2 awards. And what is done in the wiki is to create a new page which only linked the other two, which is kind of the opposite of what a merging is. While it looks to me that in most countries the FIFA WPofY is much less considered than the ballon d'or (except in Brasil, which has actually won quite a few FIFA prices when they were not allowed yet to win ballon d'or, so it can easily be understood), maybe a more proper approach would be to have in the new page a merged list of gains... In any case, while you may disagree on my post, I still argue that the current situation is not very satisfactory. An encyclopedia is supposed to help understand the world as it is, and as such having a FIFA ballon d'or page with only one winner and the ballon d'or page with the previous ones does not seem ideal to me. Maybe this discussion should move to the FIFA balon d'or discussion page... I don't have any strong view on the topic, and don't plan on making any changes but as it is I feel something is missing Bertou (talk) 19:16, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the point you are making but it seems erroneous to me to have 2010 listing below 2009 on the Ballon d'Or article as it indicates that they are the same award. Maybe we could have Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year winners alongside each other then FIFA Ballon d'Or below for clarity but to list 2010 on Ballon d'Or is quite simply incorrect as they are different awards, and puts unjustified emphasis on the Ballon d'Or compared to the FIFA World Player of the Year. An editor has placed the comment Since 2010, the world’s best player will be awarded the FIFA Ballon d’Or below the 2009 entries on both pages so the reader can clearly see that from 2010 onwards a new award was created amalgamating the two (although someone has added 2010 to this page). I think it would be useful if a consensus can be reached on whether this article should show 2010 so hopefully some more editors will join in the discussion. As to your point that various media have referred to Messi’s second win, I think they have done that more for the sake of simplicity due to the fact that he won both previous awards but if we are to be enclyopedic (which we should be) then technically Messi has won one each of Ballon d'Or, FIFA World Player of the Year and FIFA Ballon d'Or (first two in 2009 and latter in 2010). Zarcadia (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with your points. Of course the number of Ballon d'Or is not a strict measure of a player quality (Maradona, Pele...), but it is the closest thing we have, and for "recent" players, it is kind of the right thing. Maybe in 5 years Messi will have won 5 more FIFA Ballon d'Or, the wolrd cup, and nobody will care about how many he really won (I hope so :P), but it is kind of strange of not being able to compare Messi to other great players just because two prices were merged. The answer should probably not come from us but from the FIFA, actually. In the meanwhile, maybe a list including all the prices, with 2 names when the FIFA and Ballon d'Or were different, and some global ranking counting only one price per year? But as I said, even if this is what look to me as the right thing, this should be proposed by the FIFA I guess, not us... So... Well... Don't know... Bertou (talk) 23:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not only is it a new award now, the voting procedure has changed dramatically with now coaches and captians being able to vote too. Maybe an option is to merge the two pages, but name all the changes and break the table at 2009, a short new paragraph and then continue with 2010 onwards.-Koppapa (talk) 09:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But to do that raises the problem that up until 2009 we are listing European (club) Footballer of the Year (as the Ballon d'Or was) then from 2010 listing world player of the year. The reason the Ballon d'Or was merged with the FIFA World Player of the Year was that recently both awards were voting for the same winner and it made sense to have a single award but if we list pre- and post- 2010 then we are giving the wrong impression that, for example, in 2001 Michael Owen was voted world player of the year when it was in fact Luis Figo. I don't think we should be confused by the fact that both awards have Ballon d'Or in the title, the FIFA Ballon d'Or is a different award^{[citation needed]}. I understand people concerns that there is no continuous list for pre- and post- 2010 but, in my opinion, the incorrect continuation of listing outweighs that. Maybe on the FIFA Ballon d'Or article we could list both Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year alongside each other (as I have suggested previously) but we really shouldn't here. It seems this page is being edited constantly between those who think we should list 2010 and those who don't and unfortunately most of those are anon ip editors who apparently don't join in discussion here. It would be best if we can reach a consensus here and maintain the article accordingly. Zarcadia (talk) 17:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above decision doesnt make any sense. Almost every newspaper refer to the FIFA ballon dor as the ballon dor and counts the latest FIFA Ballon dor as the next winner of the old ballon dor. Even the presenter on the award night held up to fingers to symbolise that this was the second time he (messi) won the ballon dor. Which of course doesn't make sense with the gibberish currently employed. Furthermore the FIFA Ballon d'Or page listed female winners and coaches? Sorry, but they do not win the FIFA Ballon dor. There is only one winner of that award. Not two. Not three. Not four, one. One player wins the FIFA ballon dor, only one. The rest win various FIFA awards, NOT FIFA ballon dor awards. To further show the total confusion the site RSSF which is used to reference the Ballon d'Or article, counts the FIFA ballon dor under the fifa WP awards. Good stuff indeed. I propose that the FIFA Ballon dor winners are continued under the ballon dor, perhaps under a new section. Sandman888 (talk) 10:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a real footballer or did some joker manage to add his name onto this "important" list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kentheman (talk • contribs) 16:59, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted, that editor replaced the correct info with that name. Zarcadia (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

everyone in the world knows messi have 3 ballon d'ors"Messi is the fourth football player to win three Ballon d'Ors, after Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini and Marco Van Basten and the second player to win three consecutive Ballon d'Ors, after Michel Platini,on fifa site messi is mentioned with 3 ballon d'ors,on media,everywere in the world,why you don't change it?another argument,uefa champions league until 1992 was euroepan cup,but real madrid is considered to have 9 title champions league but real have just 3,if champions league will change the name again in 2013,you mean every team in the world will have zero trophies?messi have 3 ballon d'ors that is a fact.(SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH.)(86.126.103.85 (talk)sir marian86.126.103.85 (talk))

There two separate awards, the FIFA Ballon d'Or saw the Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year award merged. Therefore its inaccurate to say that Messi has won it three years in a row as its a new award and separate from the previous one, which FIFA acknowledges on its site, so you're ascertain their website says he has three is wrong. The difference between the Champions League and this award is that it was still the same trophy, there weren't two that were merged, as is the case here. NapHit (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand you but however"FIFA.com: You’re the first player since Michel Platini to win the Ballon d’Or three times in a row. How do you feel? Lionel Messi: I’m very proud to have won it three times, especially one after the other. It’s hard to win one, let alone three. I’m very happy and this award gives me as much pleasure as the first...Platini himself said messi have 3 ballon d'ors. From goal.com:"The Argentine has emulated Michel Platini, the only other player to win the award three times in a row, and joins Johan Cruyff and Marco van Basten on a trio of successes" are millions of news about messi third ballon d'or."86.126.102.72 (talk)sir marian —Preceding undated comment added 15:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]

NapHit you are violating the wikipedia rules. This is not the page to present your personal opinions. The generally accepted fact is that Messi won the award for the third consecutive year. Fifa agrees, Uefa agrees, Platini agrees, France Football agrees, Messi agrees, Di Stefa agrees, the most important journalists agree (see Marca, Guardian, goal.com)... Therefore it is not up to you to make your personal research and to argue something else. Sorry.

I'm violating wikipedia rules that's a new one. They are two separate awards, technically he has won awards three years in a row, but what you fail to recognise is that the two awards were merged, therefore it is now a separate award, and as such should not be listed on this page. The Ballon d'Or ceased to exist after 2009, that is made clear on FIFA's webiste, where it lists France Football Ballon d'Or winners. If it was the same award we wouldn't have separate articles would we? NapHit (talk) 22:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is ridiculous naphit. Everybody in the world refer to this as messis 3rd ballon dor, im not even going to post a google search for this. The fact is, everybody treats this as his 3rd ballon dor, ipso facto it IS his third ballon dor. Otherwise you have to come up with reliable references that this is NOT his third ballon dor. The ball is in your court.Sandman888 (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Its not ridiculous at all, how can we win an award for the third time in a row, when the award he won in the past two years is a new one. The Ballon d'or that has been awarded since 2010 is a MERGER between the Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year. here is a link on FIFA's website which lists the winners and it clearly states that the award was the France Football Ballon d'or and stopped in 2009. Technically Messi has won the award three years in a row, but its only the name that is the same that's why the media refers to him winning the award three times in a row. This award on this page stopped being awarded in 2009, that's why he should not be included here. That is the consensus on WP:FOOTY. Its clearly stated at the top of the article that the award doesn't exist anymore, what part of that don't you understand? NapHit (talk) 21:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again, these are only your opinions. This is not the right palce to make personal research. It is the same as with personal names, see for example the article of Ron Artest/Metta World Peace. Even though technically his name was Metta World Peace, the wikipedia article was named Ron Artest until the new name came to be generally accepted among commentators, experts, fans, etc. The same rule apples here - EVERYBODY (not only media as you try to suggest) considers this to be Messi's third consecutive ballon d'oro, therefore wikipedia should reflect it. What we can accept is to make a separate table in the same article as it was before. It would be an acceptable compromis, it seems, however, that you want to go against all the rules and habits just to present your personal view of the award. And that is not correct, this is not your blog... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.102.113.80 (talk) 23:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Messi has won three awards called "Ballon d'Or", that is true. However, the award he won in 2009 is not the same as the awards he won in 2010 and 2011. Anyone who says they are (and that includes the media) is wrong. – PeeJay 23:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources trumps wrong. That's how this site works. Sandman888 (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but its not my opinion, the simple fact is the award on this page no longer exists, its not hard to understand. If the award no longer exists how can he have won it three times in a row. I'm not going against rules, habits or conventions, or making personal research, the award on this page was awarded by l'equipe a french newspaper, the award was called the ballon d'or, it ceased to exist in 2009 when it was merged with the FIFA World Player of the Year award. Thus a new award was created (which is why its on a separate page), the only relation between this award and the new one is the name. The top of the page makes it clear the award is no longer in existence, so how can messi win an award that doesn't exist? NapHit (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

" UEFA president Michel Platini heralded Lionel Messi after the Barcelona star matched the Frenchman's record of having won three consecutive FIFA Ballon d'Or awards." FIFAdotCom And many more. It is NOT a new award. He has won it thrice. Everybody says so. Otherwise we will have to bring in an outside party to weigh the evidence (just how many articles refer to it as 3 ballon dor wins?) against yours (how many articles claims that it is NOT his third?). Guess where the majority of reliables sources will be.... Sandman888 (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the key point, the award on THIS page no longer exists it was merged with the FIFA World Player of the Year award to create the FIFA Ballon d'Or. He's won three awards in name only, how can you not understand that point, its simple. Consensus on WP is that this award on this page no longer exists, why do you think there is a separate article? If it was the same award there would be no need for another award. NapHit (talk) 23:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus of media (reliable sources) >>>> consensus of five wikipedians. And thats wikipedia policy. Sandman888 (talk) 00:16, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need to create an edit notice, telling people in no uncertain terms what the de facto situation on this article is, containing a very prominent link to FIFA Ballon d'Or. Other worthwhile links could include WP:3RR, WP:BRD, and an encouragment to contribute to the talk page if they would like to question this.

It would of course need to be worded in such a way as not to imply that the status quo is "right", merely that it is the status quo. Thoughts? —WFC— 01:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]