Wikipedia:Terrorists category discussions/Archive 1
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J for the record, I think this category is a very bad idea, because it will lead to edit conflicts and severe NPOV problems. I will do my best to make it more NPOV by including terrorists from all political ideologies and cultures. - pir 10:34, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I second that opinion. I don't think that a "terrorist" category can be NPOV. One can argue that there are well documented examples of the american government targeting civilians for political purposes. Perhaps someone should put this page up for deletion. Matt 12:17, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I agree as well. This category has an inherently POV character. -- Viajero 20:08, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for Deletion discussions
This is a list of discussions about Category:Terrorists. It includes both Wikipedia:Categories for deletion and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion (the new name). Here are some searches of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion for terrorism and terrorist: [1] and [2]. They pull up many discussions of various terrorism and terrorist categories. Add a year to narrow the search results. See also the top of Category talk:Terrorists and Category talk:Terrorism for links to discussions.
2004
- See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Terrorists/2004 for an archived discussion from 2004.
- See also Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/unresolved#Terrorism for discussion of related categories
2005
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 October 1#Category:Terrorists
- Result - No consensus (no change)
2006
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 January 28#Category:Terrorists
- Result - no consensus
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 1#Category:Terrorists by nationality and sub categories with the word "terrorist" in them
- Result - keep
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 20#Terrorist categories
- Result - no consensus
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 23#Category:Terrorists
- Result - no consensus
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 31#Category:Terrorists (along with Category:Terrorists by nationality and subcategories)
- Result - delete
- Overturned by deletion review [3] and sent back to CFD
- Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 15#Category:Terrorists
- Result - no consensus
2008
- Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 July 25#Unqualified "Terrorism" (along with many subcategories and Category:Terrorists).
- Result - Keep all
2009
stop
Abimael Guzmán
I think this whole category and all the subsidiary ones are hopelessly POV and should be deleted. That said, since the vote to delete these categories is not going anywhere, I would like to point out that Abimael Guzmán does not fit the definition of terrorist being used here. Guzmán is the chairman of the Communist Party of Peru, which is waging what it calls people's war (revolution). Accordingly, there is a regular armed conflict between the CPP and the Peruvian régime, one that has been on now for a quarter of a century. In addition, no one has given any evidence that Guzmán himself has personally carried out alleged "terrorist" acts, and recent reports from the BBC and other sources even point out that the Peruvian government accuses him in court of being the intellectual inspiration of the alleged acts rather than the person who performed them. Guzmán's name should therefore be removed from this list immediately.
Also, if anyone here would like to help me to make this point on Talk:Abimael Guzmán, I would appreciate the assistance. Two people there just don't understand, and I am quite exasperated from the discussion. Shorne 12:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Timothy McVeigh?
Could somebody please explain why Timothy McVeigh isn't included on this page? If I was looking for an argument I could probably come up with some grumble about the omission being a result of him being white and American, but I won't.
- You can find him: Category:Terrorists>Category:American terrorists.--AI 4 July 2005 03:42 (UTC)
I noticed today that this article on an ancestor of a former Inca ruler, who fought against the Spaniards in Peru, is not in any Peru-related categories. While exploring the subcategories of Category:Peru I was rather displeased to notice that Category:Peruvian terrorists is probably the one he belongs in, according to the (forgive the pun) tortured definition given on this page. And this strikes me as obviously inappropriate (although if I were a Spaniard in Peru in the 18th century, I might say otherwise).
- I believe that it would be a mistake to include such an important figure in that category. We have to remember also that in those times, the definition of terrorist is imposible to apply, since the very word did not exist (in that sence) in that time. He was much more the leader of an insurrection against the Spanish Crown rather than a simple terrorist. Messhermit 04:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
- It's all about POV, and the POV that the Spanish crown was right to colonize Peru is all but extinct now. I think this is the only reason Tupac Amaru is not viewed as a terrorist by anyone. I think that the subcategory Category:Persons convicted on terrorism charges is closer to the right idea. I'd like more comments though. Eliot 14:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Am I wrong? And if I'm not, does this indicate something profoundly wrong with the definition and the existence of the category at all? Can we discuss changing the name of the category to a less POV and more informative one? After all, since Wikipedia states that "There is no universally agreed upon definition of terrorism" it seems to be a clear violation of POV to use terrorism as an internal categorization criteria.
How about 'Militants' or something? Eliot 8 July 2005 18:55 (UTC)
- I would said that Insurgents it's much more accurate. Messhermit 04:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
- Anyway, please click the link in the "Disclaimer" section of the category. You'll find out how it works:
- Yes, terrorists are difficult to define, so that's why the category uses a very "strict" definition, excluding all the borderline cases. The Inca ruler is in that border zone: there's no evidence he even was aware of the difference of terror applied to individuals, and terror applied to a community, leave alone there's proof he knew how to use it. The category defines terrorism as a specific intention of the one who uses it. If that intention is not documented the person does not belong in the category. The situation would've been different if, for example, the Inca ruler would've kept a diary in which he had written down that some day he discovered there was a sociological difference between trying to impress a person by killing one of his/her children, and impress a community by inducing terror, and if additionally he would've made clear that henceforth he was going to use the second technique, yes, then he could be added to the category; since, however, none of that nor anything in that sense is the case he is not put in the category. Whether yes or no he is included in other definitions of "terrorist" is not relevant for the wikipedia categorisation system: these other definitions might have relevance for terrorism article, but that's not what the category is about: it's about clear and undisputed examples.
- Also, since the "terrorist" category is a sensitive category, as defined by wikipedia:categorisation of people, it is advised to only apply the 4 or 5 most distinctive features of that person as "categories" to the wikipedia article on that person, which makes it even less likely anything near to "terrorists" would appear as a category at the bottom of this person's article.
- --Francis Schonken 11:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
- Anyway, please click the link in the "Disclaimer" section of the category. You'll find out how it works:
Karlheinz Stockhausen
I assume contemporary composer Karlheinz Stockhausen is listed as a terrorist because of his refering to Sept. 11 as a "work of art". It is my understanding, however, that he was in fact speaking of how the devil is still at work in the world, and Sept. 11 was Lucifer's greatest work of art. A journalist then decided the only part of this statement that mattered were the words "work of art", and made it seem as though Stockhausen believed Sept. 11th was the "greatest work of art".
- I suggest you move this comment to Talk:Karlheinz Stockhausen. Or you could try talking to the prankster directly, if you think he would care. Mirror Vax 13:53, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
NPOV
The text here is scewed to make governments and there agents. " here understood as inducing, or convincingly threatening to induce, outside the operations of a regular armed conflict, a life-threatening situation in a community,". I don't reard "Shock and Awe" as "regular armed conflict". I don't regar the general.--Son of Paddy's Ego 13:02, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- A former -longer- category definition contained an explicit reference to Shock and awe as being excluded from the quite strict definition of terrorist tactics used for the purposes of this category.
- I think I'd need to look where that part was left out of the category definition. Anyway, for me it would be OK to put it back.
- Please also read wikipedia:categorisation of people, which might help in getting some insight what this is about. --Francis Schonken 13:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- Excluded why?. There is no reason to exclude it at all. 9/11 was shock and awe as was the GWII. Excluding them because of the perps. Is not a legitimate exclusion.--Son of Paddy's Ego 13:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please, read wikipedia:categorisation of people, that explains the use of category definitions. If that's clear I don't think we would still have much of a disagreement. Or would we? --Francis Schonken 13:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- Excluded why?. There is no reason to exclude it at all. 9/11 was shock and awe as was the GWII. Excluding them because of the perps. Is not a legitimate exclusion.--Son of Paddy's Ego 13:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- You mean the entire cat should be deleted. In the mean time it should have the text decribing it marked as NPOV.--Son of Paddy's Ego 19:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- No, on the contrary, why would the cat need to be deleted? Whether it will be deleted, will be the result of the vote. And the NPOV template is not on its place, not before the vote, not during the vote and not after the vote. Do we agree? --Francis Schonken 22:58, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- No we don't.--Son of Paddy's Ego 23:02, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- Some patience please! Vote takes a few days, we'll see from there. --Francis Schonken 23:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- Removing NPOV's will get you blocked. Now leave it there where it beleongs. It is notable that you support the keeping of this cat. You just trying to prevent others from having there say and until you learn to you get beyond your own narrow political bias you should leave it there.--Son of Paddy's Ego 12:24, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- No, removing the {{NPOV}} template will not get me blocked, it is simply a template that, according to guidelines, does not belong in "category:" namespace. Removing the {{CategorisationDisputedPeople}} will not get me blocked as the criteria for inserting that template (that is: inclusion disputes resulting in a "no-include" on several talk pages of people included in the cat) are not met.
- And there are recommendations not to apply too many similar templates at the same time. --Francis Schonken 13:44, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- In your opinion. It is vandalism. Stop it now.--Son of Paddy's Ego 13:47, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- Was there supposed to be a reasonable refutation of my arguments in that comment? I can't see any. --Francis Schonken 22:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- I think you'll find that you have to refute mine not the other way around. You should not remove the NPOV untill the problems have been resolved. They have not.--Son of Paddy's Ego 22:37, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- I refuted them, again:
- {{NPOV}} is not a template that can be used in "category:" namespace.
- {{CategorisationDisputedPeople}} is not on its place here as the criteria for the inclusion of that template are not met.
- There is advise against using multiple templates with similar messages on the same page: {{SCD}} should suffise.
- I see no other arguments (except a vague attempt to confuse "terrorism" and "shock and awe", to which I replied too - did you still have problems with that refutation?)
- And I refuted Lulu's single argument, see below. I didn't even see you defend that argument. You have said I removed POV lines several times, well, yeah, I removed Lulu's "Redundant & POV line" several times, and explained on the talk page why I removed it - where's the fault?
- --Francis Schonken 09:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- I refuted them, again:
- You are a vandal. You haven't refuted anything. You just restate you POV again and again.--Son of Paddy's Ego 12:29, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- I refuted, for example: {{NPOV}} is not a template for "category:" namespace. Following relevant wikipedia guidelines is not a matter of POV. The other points of your criticism were refuted likewise. --Francis Schonken 12:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- Refuting means cosiderabley more than just saying that the other person s wrong. Which is all you have done. You seem to be missing the point, it isn't for you to judge whether or not you have managed to refute the argumnets. --Son of Paddy's Ego 13:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Do not falsify perspective of categorization
It is absolutely clear that no group describes itself as terrorist. The editor who keeps trying to create the insinuation that individuals categorized in this category would self-describe as such is enormously deceptive. If you believe that any single group does so, please suggest their name here; absent that, please do not invent novel facts for the category page. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 00:54, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- Pierre Carette leader of the CCC (Cellules Communistes Combattantes) self-identified himself and his organisation as terrorist, even after he was released from prison in 2003.
--Francis Schonken 09:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- I do not read Dutch, but from what I can make of the article you suggest, no support is given for this assertion. The CCC seems to be characterized as terrorist, but not to self-characterize as such. If you like, we could modify the category description to read "...no individual listed here..." to allow the possibility that some unlisted group or individual, somewhere, so self-identifies. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:02, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
???? None of this is even relevant. In Category:Terrorists there is a category definition (as described in Wikipedia:Categorization of people). Category:Terrorists is not an article about terrorists. The category definition only says who goes in the category and who goes out, in wikipedia context. Surely, anybody endorsing having applied terrorist tactics can go in, that's what's in the last paragraph of the category definition now. Some people do endorse having applied terrorist tactics. Pierre Carrette did on the phone when he was still in prison, a few weeks before he was released. Whether Pierre Carette has an English Wikipedia article (or ever will have) is not relevant. Whether anyone else presently in the category has or has not endorsed terrorist tactics isn't relevant either. Saying that no terrorists groups ever endorse terrorism is a piece of POV not needed for the category definition (if you want to go and defend that POV in the terrorism article, fine by me, but I don't think anybody in his right mind would make such a POV generalisation that no terrorist ever would endorse terrorist logic).
So, to cut it short: what does it contribute to the category definition to have something there, that is (a) irrelevant, and (b) POV? --Francis Schonken 22:00, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
- So your "refutation" consists of the completely unevidenced claim that there is one person in the world, who does not have a Wikipedia article, who is not in the category, who belongs to an organization (with a Dutch article only) that does not describe itself as terrorist, who is alleged to have claimed to himself be a terrorist?! Who was he on the phone with making this alleged comment, you?
- A live show on French-language Belgian state-controlled radio, causing quite a stirr here in Belgium. Then his parole was delayed. Then, on advise of his lawyer, he asked that interview would no more be broadcast (which in Belgium can be asked), because, apparently, you couldn't get out of prison claiming still to be a terrorist - he constructed some sort of reasoning that he wouldn't do any further terrorist acts, because in the early 21st century methods had changed, but if he would've been still living in the 1980s, he would still use the terrorism method for achieving his goals, while, according to his saying, that was what one did in those days for achieving one's goals, the times were thus. Then, with a week or so delay he was released. Then, the whole press was at his doorstep for an interview. In all those interviews he avoided much terrorism talk, but repeated he endorsed all the previous.
- Of course, the fact that no one themselves claims to be a "terrorist" is at the very heart of the category. It's nearly the core definition of the categorization, regardless of what you might want to falsify. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:40, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- No, IMHO, that is not the heart of the category. Why would it be? I've seen no argument, I've not even seen you try to bring forward an argument, why that would need to be the "heart" of the category definition? What would that improve the cat definition? It doesn't help a step in sorting out who goes in and who goes out of the cat. --Francis Schonken 21:52, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Future edits
I have not looked at all the details behind the edits to this page, but from a cursory glance, it seems that there is a revert war brewing. If this continues, I will protect the category page without notice. The protected version is not an endorsement of the correctness of the page. It is simply one method to encourage more positive dialogue here. I am highly encouraging everyone who actively monitors and particpates with editing this page that they resolve as many of the outstanding issues on this talk page first.
Yes, there have been a few 3RR violations here on this page, and I am very inclined to block everyone involved for 48 hours - 24 hours more than the usual - and again, without warning. However, I want to give some opportunity for certain issues to be resolved first, and the blocking will not help. This post is to encourage some positive developments here. Thanks for your understanding. --HappyCamper 14:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- Tx!
- Normally we should be able to sort this out when we keep to:
- Does anyone have a problem with that? --Francis Schonken 15:13, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- We have done they are fine as they are until the POV in definition is removed, the definition as currently constructed labels only a subset of terrorists.--Son of Paddy's Ego 22:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- wikipedia:categorisation of people specifically advises to make sensitive categories "subsets", in the sense of limiting to "undoubted cases". Have you a problem with that?
- Re. templates used: no will do. "Category" templates only. And only those applicable. --Francis Schonken 22:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- It is not limited to the undoubted, which is undefinable. The effect of the phrase operations of a regular armed conflict is subject to POV.--Son of Paddy's Ego 22:59, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- I simply don't understand what you mean by "subject to POV"? The way you use it appears as if any statement is "subject to POV"? could you please explain what you mean by "subject to POV"?
- I'll give you an example. In some earlier discussion (well, about a year ago) some people defended that categories could not be used for anything that couldn't be clearly defined. One of the examples given at the time, was for example people - while one wanted a clear separation of the categories of people (clearly definable) separated from categories for fictional characters (also supposedly clearly definable). When you start to think about it no but absolutely no category is clearly definable. I could give some examples of borderline fictional characters, of whom it was not absolutely clear whether they were people or fictional; later I had fun expanding that to what is now the list of borderline fictional characters. So, when working with categories, a first thing one has to accept is that every category has borderline issues or said otherwise, nothing is clearly definable.
- But above I should have given you the *exact* quote of wikipedia:categorisation of people. I said "undoubted cases"; the full quote is: "For some sensitive categories, it is better to think of the category as a set of representative and unquestioned examples"; well, that approach should work I suppose.
- Re. templates: can we finally agree to use *only* category templates and no other? --Francis Schonken 23:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- PS: presently one can click Category:People → Category:People by occupation → Category:Musicians → Category:Fictional musicians - Would you consider that "subject to POV", that a "fictional character" is somewhere in a subcategory of the "people" category?
- operations of a regular armed conflict, who decides what is regular armed conflict? That phrase eliminates a whole group on the basis of a point of view. If freedom fighters where excluded it would be just as biased. Yo cannot define either the phrase freedom fighters or regular armed conflict, they are not phrases with common meaning. --Son of Paddy's Ego 23:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- Still don't see the problem. Is your problem "that it can't be defined"? Or is your problem "that it eliminates a whole group"? - Well, if it can't be defined it would not eliminate a whole group, would it? So, please make up your mind. I think we're still trying to sort out a false problem. A problem that is not really a problem.
- I also see that you refuse to answer my question whether we agree we henceforth use only "Category:" templates and no other. --Francis Schonken 08:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
- No I'll use what ever is appropriate. You need to get at least a basic education in logic before you continue.--Son of Paddy's Ego 10:41, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please do not make changes on a unilateral basis, and please avoid the use of intensifiers in the discussion. I don't think it is in the best interests of anyone to have this degenerate any further. --HappyCamper 21:15, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, Paddy, like HappyCamper suggests, let's get back on track. I don't see this going anywhere if we can't at least agree on the framework within which we go about with categories. For me that's clearly:
Can we at least agree that is the framework within which we work on categories?
Thanks!
--Francis Schonken 22:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Core of the NPOV dispute
I can definitely see some merit in considering this category POV. For instance, I don't see any anything related to state terrorism, even though this is one of the many categories of things-one-or-another-notable-group-calls-terrorism covered in the article terrorism. This seems to be closely related to the issue of "regular armed conflict". There is no clear definition in the linked-to article (war) which might guide us in determining which armed conflicts should qualify. But whether or not regular armed conflicts should be excluded is a matter of opinion, about which there is considerable disagreement. I think that to maintain NPOV here, multiple overlapping definitions should be accomodated. But keeping state and non-state "terrorism" distinct is useful, because many people are curious about or doing research on the former but not the latter, or vice versa.
Wikipedia:Categorization of people recommends having a good working definition, but it does not really tell us what a good working NPOV or Multiple-POV defintition for "terrorist" is.
Because "state terrorism" relies on the decisions of an entire state government (possibly including a parliament of hundreds of elected officials) and the working contributions of thousands, if not millions of individuals, it might not be practical to simply add a subcategory here devoted to "state terrorists". I would at least add a link to state terrorism in the intro, as an alternative starting place for people who might be interested in a list of important biographies on that topic. I notice we have no category for war criminals, though we do have Category:Criminals, Category:War crimes, Crime against humanity, and War crime.
If someone would attempt to make this category and its description page more inclusive, perhaps that would resolve the NPOV dispute. -- Beland 03:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hi, Beland, contrary to what you say, Wikipedia:Categorization of people gives some indication how to handle POV/NPOV issues for categories, for instance:
As you claim yourself "state terrorism" is vague (while you say yourself "state terrorists" are not even all includable in a "terrorists" category), so, according to the guideline, what is vague is better defined as being out of the category, even if that limits the category. That is the best way to maintain NPOV for categories, as is described in the guideline presently.It is preferable that the category definition (on the category page) tries to exclude vague and/or non-Neutral point of view (NPOV) cases. In many cases, only referencing a wikipedia article explaining the term is not sufficient as a definition for a category. This is true for almost every sensitive category. If the article you want to use as definition is problematic in itself, consider improving the article. Otherwise, or if that is not sufficient, write a definition of what goes in and what goes out of the category on the category page, with the reference article(s) as background information.
- The other thing discussed on this page, whether or not to include shock and awe, first, please read that article, and you'll see that it is at least "non-NPOV" whether or not to include those who practice "shock and awe" in a terrorists category. On the other hand, that article draws a clear line between "shock and awe" and "terrorism", the former being part of a regular armed conflict. That line allows to exclude these "non-NPOV" cases of the "terrorists" category, again, according to the "categorisation of people" guideline.
- If you want to change the guideline, that's another issue. If that would be successful, yeah, maybe a lot of "people" categories would need reviewing, while it is a rather fundamental change you propose.
- So for the time being I suggest keeping to the POV/NPOV recommendations in the categorisation of people guideline, while adding "terrorists" category to a number of winners of the Noble prize for Peace, is not the way forward on this one, I'm afraid. --Francis Schonken 07:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- The problem is that at least one user only wants people in this cat they don't like.--Son of Paddy's Ego 13:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the problem is that every editor only wants people in this cat whom they don't like. (except some of us don't want anyone here because we recognize the POV of that... but even I would have even more consternation over the inclusion of people whom I do like than I do over those whom I think are merely badly categorized). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 14:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- I put it up for deletion.--Son of Paddy's Ego 17:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
So, whatever these problems are, can we at least agree to address them with the tools described in wikipedia:categorisation of people and Wikipedia:Template messages/Category namespace? --Francis Schonken 14:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- The only thing wrong with it is the text now not the messages.--Son of Paddy's Ego 17:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
wikipedia:categorisation of people is about more than messages, so if you want to change the category text, can we agree to follow the methods and recommendations of wikipedia:categorisation of people and Wikipedia:Template messages/Category namespace? --Francis Schonken 19:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
- We are doing we just aren't following your rather perverse interpretation. Leave everything as it is. I note that English isn't your firstlanguage, I think this may be part of the problem. Also can you tell me how old you are? --Son of Paddy's Ego 13:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, we can't very well discuss interpretation if we don't agree which one we're interpreting I suppose...
I think your question about my age not so very appropriate, but anyhow, my user page has a few external links by which it is possible to get an approximation of my age (there's no secret about it).
So, can we agree, if we talk about interpretation, that that is about the interpretation of how to apply:
-and-
? --Francis Schonken 14:35, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- Of you go trying to change the subject again. Most people, other than you, understand what this is about, which is you desire to have a nice neat cat which conforms to you biggotry. Now either address the bigotry and NPOV in the text or shut up. One or the other.--Son of Paddy's Ego 14:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't see where wikipedia:categorisation of people and Wikipedia:Template messages/Category namespace would be off-topic in this discussion. I don't even think we should be doing anything else on this talk page than discussing the interpretation of these guidelines, and how they could be implemented in order to sort out problems regarding category:terrorists - do you have another view on that? --Francis Schonken 16:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks.
Here's the first step I propose:
Does anyone have a problem with that? --Francis Schonken 18:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Leave it as it is, you canot get approval for your mods by default. Stop trying to manipulate the system.--Son of Paddy's Ego 19:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, what is your problem with changing the non-cat template ("NPOV") to the more appropriate cat template ("Cleancat")? --Francis Schonken 20:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Would there be any problem to having both in the category page? If not, I will add it in 3 days. --HappyCamper 23:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see over-templatisation[4] as one of the current problems with the text of Category:Terrorists. Presently there are:
- {{NPOV}}
- {{CategorisationDisputedPeople}}
- {{SCD}}
I would not change that to:
- {{NPOV}} AND {{cleancat}}
- {{CategorisationDisputedPeople}}
- {{SCD}}
Besides which one ({{NPOV}} or {{cleancat}}) should go first then?
So I propose:
- {{cleancat}}
- {{CategorisationDisputedPeople}}
- {{SCD}}
For the time being - I think even using all three of the available "dispute"-type templates for categories not all that good for a long period of time, and I think we should end that as soon as we can agree, what do you think? --Francis Schonken 08:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I don't really mind either way. I'm more interested to see that we move on from deciding which templates to use and such. After all, this is a very difficult category to deal with, and it would be great if we can turn this into one of those collaborative successes on Wikipedia, where even a controversial subject such as this can be dealt with effectively. --HappyCamper 21:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- More than agree on that one. Since I was maybe a bit fast earlier on (well, I know this cat for over a year, in the end one starts to see a sort of pattern in the problems that occur every now and then, that's maybe why I should have taken it a bit slower earlier, it's not because I got accustomed to the sort of problems that occur, that others immediately get the broader picture) - so for that reason I was proposing to take it one step at a time (but of course prefer not to do steps backwards). --Francis Schonken 22:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Better now?
Okay, well, it's nice to see that the reversions have stopped on this page - no edits have been made since the 9th. I think this is a sign that perhaps we're moving in the correct direction - a plus! --HappyCamper 22:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks, so let's move on to the next step, which both in your proposal and in my proposal would imply an edit. --Francis Schonken 15:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Yes indeed. Well, I'm personally not going to change the content at the moment since I'm not familiar with this topic, so you're on your own. I'll perhaps monitor this a little bit more though before I move on to something else. Could you perhaps try to make the changes in say, a week? For something like this, it's rather difficult to describe the equilibrium that everyone will be happy with, and it's probably much easier to comment on the final product you have in mind when it is produced, rather than all the incremental small changes which are necessary to get there. It seems that Paddy is more comfortable with this current version, so if your changes turn out to be undesirable, let's revert back to this one, and attempt another cycle of editing where Paddy gets a chance to do the same thing. I'm well aware this is somewhat of a different approach towards editing, but let's give it a try so that at least both editors ideas have a chance to come to full fruition. --HappyCamper 17:31, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I don't have an "end result" in mind. The best I could come up with would be the version I produced 09:47, 9 October 2005 (diff), apart from a minor lay-out difference the same as I had produced a month earlier (diff) - as that was a "brewing edit war" version, and even more because I have no claim whatsoever on the content of the category description, I suppose the step-by-step approach would be better, deciding on every next step, depending on the result of the previous, in consensus, by talk on this page.
- The other approach, the one you propose, has too much of a jump defreezing of a heads-on edit war. The situation would've been different if there had been more quality communication between Paddy, Lulu, Phase1 (who reverted to my version in the early stages of the "brewing edit war", but never visited the talk page) and myself. But this didn't happen, the communication kept more or less past each other thus far, for the four people involved in editing the category page.
- So I won't wait a week for the step I proposed above (I haven't seen anyone bringing an argument forward against it), and hope to decide with others on the interval & content for the step following after that. --Francis Schonken 18:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Well, whatever you think is best. But from my perspective, if no one responds, you might as well attempt the changes and see what happens. I don't know what else to say. --HappyCamper 18:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose Francis Schonken's proposed change to insert the insinuation that some individuals/groups self-describe as "terrorist". Including the core fact that the categorization is always and only an external perspective on a person's actions is absolutely essential. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- ??? I always said I didn't think this relevant to the category definition, so I never proposed to insert the insinuation that some individuals/groups self-describe as "terrorist". What are you talking about? --Francis Schonken 07:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose Francis Schonken's proposed change to insert the insinuation that some individuals/groups self-describe as "terrorist". Including the core fact that the categorization is always and only an external perspective on a person's actions is absolutely essential. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Is there any common ground that we can begin with? Perhaps the existence of this category? --HappyCamper 20:28, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- I recognize that none of the CfD's against the category, so far, have reached consensus. As long as clearly inappropriate articles are kept out of the category, and the text remains pretty much as it is (mainly in not falsely purporting self-identification), I think that's the best we can do while the cat exists. In particular, along with keeping out names of individuals whom particular editors simply have a grudge against, we should keep out categorically inappropriate articles (such as organizations rather than individuals). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC).
- I don't see a problem to proceed with step one, as proposed above, then. --Francis Schonken 07:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, I entirely agree with Francis Schoken on this point. I don't think the NPOV tag is the right one for a category. And it is also true that when I last looked, none of the names listed had currently active disputes on their talk pages (regarding categorization); there had been some problem ones in that regard, but I think not now (which doesn't mean that I think there should not be disputes about some of them... but me just thinking in my own head that an inclusion is wrong isn't the same as pursuing it on an article talk page). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 07:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- Just thought I'd throw my voice out there as another to remove the NPOV warning, but leave the "Inclusion" warning. My how this category has diminished since I was here last ;) Sherurcij 18:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- Alright, if I counted correctly, that's 3 users who agree on removing the NPOV tag. I'll be bold and remove it right now. If it needs re-tagging, feel free to add it, but please, do it carefully :-) --HappyCamper 00:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
- notes
- ^ I know there's some policy about this (and if it isn't, I suppose there should be), anyway the point I try to make can also be clarified by this BJAODN --Francis Schonken 09:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Next step
I propose {{CategorisationDisputedPeople}} to be replaced by {{cleancat}}.
The talks, on this page, regarding the category text had not been concluded yet; and it seems a bit awkward to ask people to recategorise, when the category definition is still worked on.
Anyone having a problem with that proposed template change? --Francis Schonken 05:35, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Francis Schonken that "cleancat" looks like the most appropriate "disputed" type template for this category. I have not personally seen any actively disputed names listed lately. However, I'm not quite on board with the suggested notion that a category text is an involatile thing as soon as some articles are categorized. Everything on WP evolves; which is good, not bad. Obviously, I've expressed a strong opinion on a particular aspect of what the text should include (and is currently); but that doesn't mean that I think the category text is fixed in stone (not even the part I find important, if the same concept about non-self-attribution had a better phrasing). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 06:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters. We should not expect the text of the category to remain static. However, once we have settled on a good wording, I hope it would be robust enough that it would not need to be changed too much. Seeing that there is agreement with the template, I'll go ahead with template change.
- I should mention in passing that Son of Paddy's Ego was blocked today by David Gerard for being a sockpuppet of Irate. In light of this, I'll continue to monitor this category a bit longer. --HappyCamper 01:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Re. Paddy: my intuition was right then, diff
- Re. "We should not expect the text of the category to remain static" - I have no preference for more "static" nor for more "dynamic": "We should not expect the text of the category to change every few weeks" is IMHO as viable. Instead of the choice between "static" and "dynamic" (which is IMHO missing the point), I prefer the text of the category to be the best we can put together, which it will stay until someone comes foreward with something better. --Francis Schonken 06:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)