Template talk:Lists of Russians

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Russia: History This template is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles This template is supported by the history of Russia task force.

This template was considered for deletion on 4 December 2009. The result of the discussion was "keep, with the suggestion to limit its use".

This template was considered for deletion on 2011 November 14. The result of the discussion was "restrict usage to lists in the template".

• List of Russian scientists - see Category:Russian scientists
• List of Russian sportspeople - see Category:Russian sportspeople
• List of Russian military commanders - see Category:Russian military leaders
• List of Russian actors - see Category:Russian actors
• List of Russian film directors - see Category:Russian film directors
  Greyhood (talk) 12:40, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does this template will go in every article about Russian people?--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 16:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have intended to insert this template only into the articles about people, which are on the specific lists that constitute this template. But it may go into any article about Russian people or into any Russian-related article where it is found useful and appropriate.Greyhood (talk) 17:29, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have already put this template into every article about the people on all the lists, except the Russian composers, Russian philosophers, Russian playwrights, Russian poets and Russian novelists. Greyhood (talk) 17:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to help about it. OK?--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 19:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are very much welcome to do this.Greyhood (talk) 19:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I finish with philosophers. I will put this template in articles about Russian composers next. --Vojvodae please be free to write :) 10:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Спасибо! Greyhood (talk) 13:47, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I have put this temlate to composers articles myself, but you may still help me with the most of poets, playwrights and novelists.Greyhood (talk) 23:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was bussy this days. I will try to help in other lists.--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 12:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I finish with playwrights. Poets and novelists left. I hope that we will finish this in next few days.--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 13:11, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished with poets. Only novelists are left.Greyhood (talk) 18:53, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One recurring theme from editors commenting in the deletion discussion has been that the icons in this template are inappropriate and should be removed. In particular, the pictures of individuals in the main body of the template are purely decorative and go against the guidelines established at WP:MOSICON. I've boldly removed all of the images from the main body. I've left the icons at the top, as the flags might actually communicate some information. --RL0919 (talk) 00:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The de-iconed version of the template has already been on my user page for some time. It's basically the same as your recent revision. I have inteded to implement it if there would be final consensus on deleting icons, but if you insist on doing it right now, well, OK. Greyhood (talk) 00:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the title bar needs cleanup as well, to only link to Lists of Russians without the country links and flags etc. On a normal XGA sized display, the title bar (even when collapsed) is still three lines tall and looks terrible. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it looks terrible, and providing the links to predecessor states is useful. Of course we may delete all flags but modern Russian one and place it beside the capture, but that would be not quite historically correct.Greyhood (talk) 00:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about this?

Greyhood (talk) 00:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Good work, Greyhood. This version much better, but there are some problems. It is still curve and too broad for use, even in collapsed state. It's not a template for use between predecessors and successors, if you need a template of predecessor states and successor states, not even Russian, you can create a separate template about them. First of all, it is a navigation template between Lists of Russians. So, it can be used in the article Russians, and all Lists of Russians (~persons, not states). And do not forget about backward links for navigation.--85.140.46.135 (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This compact and simple version, more suitable for easy navigation between articles.--85.140.46.135 (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With a hope of finally resolving the dispute I've implemented the following compromise solution:

• The flags, except the modern one, are removed.
• The template has been removed from the pages of the predecessor states. Later I'll make a special template to provide a navigation between the preecessor states and the Russian Federation.
• The template is collapsed by default. Currently it is set uncollapsed only on the pages it links to and in the Russians article.
• I've added two images for pure decoration. However they are not inline, not of too small size and quite discernable. Again, by default they are expanded and seen only on the lists pages.
• I think that in the current state, when the template is visibly reduced to one line, and by default collapsed, and with the title "Russian people", there is no need to remove it from person articles. Until the dispute started there had been just a pair of people who found it unappropriate in the person articles even in the unreduced form. Obviously, lists of people of the same nationality (including one or several lists of people with the same occupation) do have some relation to a person, and may be found very useful. Again, in the current visible form the template hardly can be considered doing any harm to any article. So let it be left as it is.

Greyhood (talk) 19:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the visual changes you made, but strongly disagree with the placement. This template should not appear on individual biographical articles, per WP:Navigation templates. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've made all possible concessions. I couldn't agree that a placement of a Russian flag and a capture "Russian people" into the articles about Russian people could be of any harm, and such placement is not arbitarary, but connecting a person article to at least one occupation-related list and a whole bunch of nationality-related lists. It's also always a transclusion. I couldn't see where does WP:Navigation templates prohibit such inclusion. Greyhood (talk) 20:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am honestly tired of repeating it as a mantra, but the template should be used only for the Lists, not for individual persons. I wonder, why you do not see this obvious thing, and trying to put it into thousands of biographical articles. The navigation template should be used only for navigation. For large inclusions by subject should be used a category, not a template. Hope, you will someday understand it. --85.141.122.239 (talk) 07:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is mantra and rather pointless one. In any case this template does provide the navigation, the question is only the relevance and the qualities of it. I also have my own mantra about the fact, that categories are less useful than templates and lists. Greyhood (talk) 08:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"about the fact, that categories are less useful than templates and lists". Seems, you even did not muse about how a template works. You can ask about it from Wikipedia colleagues, if you want to know it all. They will be able to explain to you the difference between them, because I'm already tired. Hope, a clear-headed administrator will make a correct decision about this template and criteria of its usage in Wikipedia articles. --91.77.21.199 (talk) 15:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A number of users have found this template useful even in its original unreduced form, and neither you, nor anyone else can't ignore this fact. Also, up to this time no one has been able to show me where does WP:Navigation templates (or other WP guide) specifically prohibit the use of a template in related articles that aren't included into this template. And I wonder, if you seem to be quite expierenced in Wikipedia, why don't you register and finally stop writing under different IPs? That's strange.Greyhood (talk) 17:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful about inserting too much nationalistic, us versus them, foreigners vs. "ethnic Russians", russians vs other foreigners kind of tendency. These kinds of divisive and nationalistic templaces are not very good in Wikipedia. It is same as creating "German people," "Indian people," "Chinese people" templates that naturally looks very "us versus them." If this discussess the suffering of Russians during World War 2 and other hardships, that is fine, but don't take this to the extreme and get overtly "ethnic Russian" and other extreme nationalistic and racist implications. 174.16.237.205 (talk) 19:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Look through the lists in this template. There are hundreds of non-ethnic Russians. It's not about ethnicity, but about nationality, about living in Russia at least for some time. And this is certainly not about race - after all, the most renown Russian poet Pushkin was partially of African descent, and many famous Russians were of Asian descent. Any famous immigrants to Russia are also included into these lists.Greyhood (talk) 20:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Old title of the template looked more like subtle imperialism.... changed the name to reflect the content of the list better. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 23:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 4. It means, that you should change the template documentation according to the result (Keep with the strong suggestion to limit its use) and stop to use it in the pages of individuals (we have categories for it), but you even (!) did not change the documentation after closing of the discussion. I do not know why, but don't think that I gave up on this matter. It should be removed from the articles of individuals, and I will try to do it personally (!). For me has become apparent that you won't change anything until “гром не грянет”. --91.78.96.221 (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong suggestion doesn't mean anything else than strong suggestion, so it shouldn't be necessarily followed. Not everyone was in favor of limiting the usage of this template, like not everyone was in favor of the de-iconing of it. You see, this template and the lists in it provide the alternative and better navigation than categories, since in categories you see only the names of articles and the named of categories, and in the lists you see more useful additional information as well (dates, portraits, achievements etc.). In the present form the template does no harm and is virtually unseen on any page. With all these facts taken into consideration it seems that consensus about the usage of this template still hasn't been reached and still needs some discussion. And your stubborn crusade against this template is rather pointless and strange, especially with you still not having registered in Wikipedia. If you are really Russian, you may have found better application for your abilities and concentrate more on adding information about Russian persons into Wikipedia and improve navigation between them, not delete useful instruments.Greyhood (talk) 23:27, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't be necessarily followed? Oh, come on. It was the result of a deletion discussion, it means that the template can be kept only under the conditions of the result. My, as you said, "stubborn crusade" was against its incorrect usage and unheplful decoration, of cause you can not understand it because you... the author of this template (WP:OWN). And I am not "really Russian", but ethnically Ukrainian, before I said that I am from Russia, this is difference. Registration is not necessarily for editing, I come to edit only a few articles of Wikipedia, and I don't need any registration instructions, hope you understand it. At the moment no one deletes your template, and no need to appeal to this constantly. We have the result, it saying "Keep with the strong suggestion to limit its use", it is not saying "this result shouldn't be necessarily followed". Simply fulfill the conditions of template detention, that is all. I am changing the title "Russian people" to "Lists of Russian people", because it's a confusing title for a navigation template between lists of Russian people. --91.78.96.221 (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In fact my intuition has said me that you are Ukrainian from the very beginning. I'm changing the title back, until this temlpate still is included into many person pages. But I wouldn't object if you delete it from any person page where you don't like to see the Russian flag and the Russian ethnonym. It would be nice also, if you don't just delete this template, but also add the link to the "List of Russian Xs" into the "See also" section on the page.Greyhood (talk) 11:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the anon. My !vote in that discussion was conditional that it only be used to navigate between list articles. It is simply inappropriate to place this template on thousands of individual biography articles. Navboxes are intended for navigating between articles in a series, not amongst all articles with a shared (broad) attribute. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree. This template according to Wikipedia consensus is to use, but keep it very minimal and objective. Including this on 1,000 user pages are excessive. Keep it very general and objective and not very nationalistic. If this consensus is not followed, it will probably be voted again to be completely deleted if other people object to this template. So it is very necessary to "limit its use" in order for it not to be nominated for complete deletion. 174.16.237.205 (talk)

Well, for a long time I haven't readded this template to the articles from where it has been deleted. My suggestion is simple - if the usual editors of some page find this template inappropriate, let them delete it from there and so be it. But there are also users who have found this template nice and useful, and it seems that majority of users just have no specific problems with this template at all. That's my opinion - this template does no harm nowhere in the present form, and is useful. But if anyone removes the template from some or even all the person articles I wouldn't object, but instead try to implement other, less controversial ways to provide near the same navigational functionality.Greyhood (talk) 11:18, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should never be used in articles of individual Russians and that it would better do without icons. Colchicum (talk) 03:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please comply with the decision and stop adding the templte to individual's pages. Ivan2007 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Russian people" includes Russian citizens indeed but does not exclude people in the list who where not ethnic Russians or have nothing to do with current Russia. This looks like Russian territorial nationalism about parts former parts of Russia, hence it looks like imperialism to me. Citizenship is ethnicity free, thank god… — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 09:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Russians" may include any citizen of modern Russia and of its predecessor states, regardless ethnicity. The term "Russian people" is just enough, just like the term American people which comprises Russian Americans, American Jews and all others disregarding origin or ethnicity. We should use the simple names like List of Americans, List of Russians etc, and not go into monster names like List of citizens of Russian Federation, USSR, Tsardom of Russia, Grand Duchy of Moscow, Duchy of Tver, Republic of Novgorod, Kievan Rus', Rus' Khaganate etc. Greyhood (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect; that is your opinion and our opinions are not fact... I’m hoping to find consensus on naming this template. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 10:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"People from Russia" is a good name for this template ! — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 14:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

213.246.83.86 (talk) 04:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this proposal. I should have noticed it earlier, but better late than never. GreyHood ^Talk 01:43, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]