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This article was nominated for deletion on 2006/12/10. The result of the discussion was keep.

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AnwarSadatFan deleted the following images:

File:Sphinx Frank Domingo.jpg - (→The Great Sphinx of Giza: rmv, this illustration is from the book "Black Spark, White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe?" which is an extremely Afrocentrist/Black supremacist)

File:Mannequin of Tutankhamun.jpg|Bust of Tutankhamun. File:VdR TIV9.jpg|Thutmosis IV. File:Amenhotep III.jpg| Amenhotep III. File:Ancient Egyptian women playing musical instruments.jpg - (→Gallery of ancient Egyptian art: these images were painted and colored in modern times, only have images that have original coloring)

There was nothing wrong with these images. There is no evidence that any of the images in the gallery were painted during modern times and calling the Black Spark, White Fire book an Afrocentrist/Black Supremacist book is an Ad Hominem attack that does not justify deleting the image which had material relevant to The Sphinx Controversy. When I work out the copyright status of the images the bot deleted I'm putting them back up and I recommend that AnwarSadatFan be blocked from this page if he continues to make disruptive edits. AncientObserver (talk) 09:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can AnwarSadatFan come here in the talk page and discuss openly changes he is making in the article? What does he call an Afrocentrist website? Is afrocentrist opposed to science? What about other websites? Are they really neutral? Or are they simply Eurocentrist? How can he make the cause for the pictures? Maybe he is right. But why is he acting in the hiding?--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 07:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not even mad at AnwarSadat, I'm more annoyed at the admins higher up who do not seem to be interested in moderating this, but will moderate us to this point to prevent the black side from really having a voice in the debate. Like it's not a "real" debate. Just this article is a way of sandboxing us. --Panehesy (talk) 03:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AnwarSadatfan attempted another mass deletion of pictures without seeking consensus from the other editors. Anwar if the gallery is getting too big or you don't think the page should have a gallery we can talk about that but constantly deleting images that other people made an effort to contribute to the page gives a bad impression of your intentions. AncientObserver (talk) 17:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since the picture gallery is becoming a major distraction, it is worth considering getting rid of it and placing it in commons. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem isn't the gallery. The problem is AnwarSadatfan constantly deleting pictures in the article that he doesn't want there. I told him on his page that he should discuss this here or I would report him for making disruptive edits and while he did come to the discussion page he is continuing the same behavior. AncientObserver (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The gallery is not a "major distraction." WP policy encourages the use of images to support the topic, and these images (if carefully selected) illustrate very well the basis of the controversy. However one editor has a problem with the validity of certain images (although does not explain why) and some other editors seem to think that the controversy will be settled by counting the images "supporting" each side of the debate, as though its an election, but overall the gallery is an aid not a distraction. Wdford (talk) 20:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is a gallery of artwork (which isn't really reliable) we should also have a gallery of mummies. That would be very valuable to the reader. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recommend it. Mummies are quite gruesome to some people and looking at a decayed old corpse is not a good way to analyze its racial characteristics. I do think more should be said about the actual analysis of mummies such as the X-ray scans and hair analysis. AncientObserver (talk) 12:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think mummies are defintely a much better way to analyze their racial characteristics than paintings that were recolored in modern times and statues that were reconstructed in modern times. Let's create a gallery of mummies, it is the most neutral and objective way to analyze this controversy. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 05:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the artwork was not recolored or reconstructed. If you are going to make those allegations against certain images in the gallery provide a reliable source. Mummies are not very reliable because they are decayed old corpses. We can't tell the skin color of a mummy by looking at it and the facial thickness of a decayed mummy does not reflect the appearance of the person when they are alive. Even the hair is suspect. Anthropometric analysis of ancient remains are much more reliable for assessing biological characteristics. I for one don't support the idea but it would be good if some of the other editors weighed in. AncientObserver (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to do a section on mummies, here is some interesting material to think about. http://guywhite.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/egyptian-mummies-clearly-white/ Wdford (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a racist blog, WDford. I found this page, which contains several credible sources on mummy hair, to be far more insightful. AncientObserver (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but your link clicks through to a page of advertising - nothing about Egypt at all - you need to adjust the link. And PS: the "hair" blog you are trying to link to is hardly impartial. It quotes selectively, and contains some comments that are directly contradicted by experts who have been quoted on this article and elsewhere. On the other hand, actual photos of mummies tell their own story, regardless which sites choose to display them. That is the value of "evidence" over "opinion". Wdford (talk) 13:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There the link is fixed. Now you may dispute the interpretation of the references on the page I provided but the link you posted doesn't provide references at all. They just say the hair on the mummies prove the Egyptians were White because they associate its appearance with White people. That's an opinion and there are experts who dispute that opinion as well as the reliability of regarding hair as a racial characteristic. I recommend that we write a balanced article on hair morphology. AncientObserver (talk) 16:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. However these differing opinions and interpretations are the reason why there is a controversy in the first place. Could you perhaps draft the initial version, including the part about the experts who dispute the reliability of regarding hair as a racial characteristic, and the rest of us will build on it? Thanks Wdford (talk) 17:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of coarse you two agree with each other, as fellow Afrocentrists and Black supremacists (judging by your edit patterns). Can we get some more neutral editors working on this article? Thanks. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 01:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks are against Wikipedia guidelines per WP:GOODFAITH. Anwar, I would recommend that you attempt to reach consensus with your fellow editors rather than trying to edit war and vandalize the page in order to have your way which has given you the reputation of a disruptive editor. I am not an Afrocentrist nor a Black Supremacist and all you have accomplished with the accusation is exposing that you have an Anti-Afrocentric agenda rather than being neutral yourself. While we may have different views when it comes to this topic that should not prevent us from being civil, cooperative and objective when it comes to editing this page. I don't approve of the mummy gallery but I will not try to stop you from building it though I think there is a better place for it than the anthropometric indicators section. AncientObserver (talk) 03:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was stating the obvious judging from your edit patterns, those are not personal attacks but if you are offended then I will not make them again. But you need to start being more neutral please. The Afrocentric agenda is not a neutral one, therefore if I wish this article to be free of Afrocentric influence that is being neutral. Adding a valuable gallery of mummies is not vandalism. You removing them is vandalism. Fair enough, where do you think is a better place for the gallery of mummies? I will add it and you can move it around. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 17:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see where you placed the gallery of mummies and it does not make sense to have it there. Best place for it is in the Anthropometric indicators section. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting pictures simply because you feel they support an Afrocentric agenda is vandalism and bias. We continually asked you to provide evidence for your criticisms of the images and you never did. You might consider my editing patterns to be Afrocentric, however all I have done is contribute to the page and I have been fair with the other editors. I do not believe that emphasizing Ancient Egypt's African bio-cultural roots is Afrocentric, it is simply correct. Calling me a Black Supremacist on the other hand is wholly unfounded and completely out of line. As for the mummy gallery since they are the physical remains of the Ancient Egyptians I can accept their placement in the Anthropometric Indicators section. I think a paragraph, similar to the art gallery paragraph, should be written including the various techniques applied to mummies to assess their racial characteristics such as X-Ray and CAT scans, hair and skin analysis as well as forensic reconstruction. Those techniques also deserve their own paragraphs within the section. AncientObserver (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can we all at least admit this:

1. The images of Egyptians which denote them being black are not being put on. 2. There is far too much reaction to any black images. There are users here who are asking for far too much verification for the black stuff, but they make excuses for posting the white stuff without using the same scrutiny.

Can we at least agree that this IS happening? --Panehesy (talk) 03:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That tut picture is really irritating, especially in that the other two representations in the same study are not posted. Why? Let me guess, someone is going to say "The cover is good enough". Well my response is this: It's good enough for an agenda to push one side of the debate, it's not good enough for the article to show both sides, as that is the purpose of the article, to demonstrate the reality of the debate. After all, the studies were done blind and double blind for the other two, and were also sanctioned by the Egyptian Anitquities department. Show them. --Panehesy (talk) 03:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see this. What I do see is people trying to refight this discussion with original arguments, instead of relying on reliable sources and what they say. I'd also say that the value of 4000 year old pictures drawn with a limited choice of colours and according to schools of art that have died out 300 generations ago in determining the race of the subjects tends towards nil, especially for laymen like most of us here. And that goes either way. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Aristotle wrote a sentence refering to the black skin of the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. It was in the old version of the article. It does no longer appear here. Could somebody find it? Otherwise I will try myself to retrieve it. Besides, I have the impression that someone removed the study on the skin of mummies done by Cheikh Anta Diop. This study is very important to understand why ancient Egyptians have to be considered as Blacks. It was presented at the Egyptological Cairo Symposium in 1974. But who is this man who always tries to destroy Diop's contributions?--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 09:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I recall the quote. I will look it up and post it. I think it would be a good idea to create sections for hair and skin analysis in the Anthropometric indicators section. AncientObserver (talk) 16:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea!--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 19:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, the Aristotle quote has been added. I will check into Diop's research on melanin dosage testing and write an article on skin analysis as well as hair analysis when I have time. AncientObserver (talk) 00:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That quote currently lacks a source. Something like that requires a reliable translation, not just a reference to the original Greek text. And the whole section seems out of place - I doubt that the ancient authors saw this as a controversy about the race of the ancient Egyptians. This once more looks like an attempt at WP:OR, i.e. an attempt to refight this controversy, not to report on it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There I added a source for the quote. As for the section being original research I do think it requires a short paragraph explaining the fact that the classical observers have been quoted by modern historians in order to support theories about the appearance of the Ancient Egyptians. AncientObserver (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks AncientObserver for your willingness to improve the quality of this article! I am eager to read the new sub-sections you announced on skin and hair.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have any specialism in Egyptology or Genealogy but I think that the labels from both the images (at page head and later under 'Ancient Egyptian texts and inscriptions' heading) have been confused. It currently states “A portion of the Book of Gates showing the four nations of men, depicting (from top right): Libyan, Nubian, Asiatic, Egyptians, from the tomb of Seti I."

Proposing reversing depiction of Libyan and Asiatic, as the image just does not seem to relate to description. As I say I do not have in depth knowledge apart from cross-referencing Libyan and Asiatic genotypes, so please feel free to return to a previous revision if it is in fact correct. This post can be deleted if agreed the change is correct, I just don’t want to cause a debate on what is a topic containing strong feelings :) Ginga123 (talk) 00:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I don't understand the need of mentioning twice the same picture. In this controversy, it would have been better to show the other interesting picture; that of the tomb of Ramesses III where the Egyptian and the Nubian are depicted almost in the similar manner. But maybe people don't like this way of presenting facts, even if from the ancient Egyptian perspective!--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 21:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not sure if you are making this suggestion tongue in cheek?

Per Frank Yurco, this particular illustration is a printing error by a publisher who added a supplementary section (the so-called Erganzungsband) to a reprint of Lepsius’ work long after his death, working from Lepsius’ original notes. (Seemingly the illustration from the tomb of Ramses III shows only three of the “nations”, and the publisher was expecting four “nations” - as appears in all the other versions of this text). – see e.g. http://groups.google.com/group/sci.archaeology/msg/4a0952a05d6c434c

Yurco was a respected mainstream scholar who believed in the “African-ness” of the ancient Egyptians, while Manu Ampim seemingly believes the whole world has been participating in a centuries-long global conspiracy to erase the “blackness” of the ancient Egyptians by systematically destroying evidence and even faking dozens of paintings and statues.

I haven’t been inside KV 11 myself, but until then I am inclined to accept the word of the respected scholar over that of the conspiracy-theorist.

Wdford (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

as the article title makes clear, this article is about the Afrocentric "race controversy", not about prehistoric Egypt in general. In spite of this, yet again we have a large amount of material about prehistoric populations in Egypt completely unrelated to Afrocentrism. I have grouped this material in a separate section. It should be split off, to an article on population history of Egypt vel sim. --dab (𒁳) 07:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]