Talk:Greater Armenia (state): Difference between revisions

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WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Greater Armenia (state), along with other pages relating to politics, ethnic relations, and conflicts involving Armenia, Azerbaijan, or both, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are: Only extended-confirmed editors may make edits related to the topic area, though editors who are not extended-confirmed may post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area on article talk pages. Should disruption occur on article talk pages, administrators may take enforcement actions against disruptive editors and/or apply page protection on article talk pages. However, non-extended-confirmed editors may not make edits to internal project discussions related to the topic area, even on article talk pages. Internal project discussions include, but are not limited to, Articles for deletion nominations, WikiProjects, requests for comment, requested moves, and noticeboard discussions. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. Remedy instructions and exemptions Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned.

«Բարիքի Արքայություն» Թագավորական Արվեսի Գիտությունը' "Թ9" Թագը, Համամարդկային Գիտակցության Գագաթնակետն է ԳԱԳ !!!!!!!!! GAGIK MATEVOSI MATEVOSYAN ARM EMPIRE ® Джрвеж относится к тем местам, где сюрпризы преподносит не только гений человека, но и природа. Закавказье - один из центров происхождения культурных растений, и в горах вокруг Джрвежа до сих пор встречаются дикорастущие предки культурной пшеницы. Среди густой травы, окаймляющей древние крепостные стены, срываем несколько неприметных колосков - это та самая пшеница-прародительница (Triticum vulgaris), которая дала начало сотням сортов, возделываемых ныне. В этих местах работал академик Н. И. Вавилов, собирая свою знаменитую коллекцию культурных растений, хранящуюся в Институте растениеводства в Санкт-Петербурге.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.193.152.224 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 23 September 2007‎ (UTC)[reply]

I have removed this image from the page: [1]. The description "Boundaries of the Greater Armenia as referred in 1919 by Armenian nationalists" is both misleading and POV, as well as being off-topic for this article. The map is actually titled "United Armenia" and there is no reference or reasoning given to attribute it to "Armenian nationalists". I doubt the validity of placing such images in what is a disambiguation page, especially since the same image is not in the Greater Armenia (political concept) article it purports to represent. Meowy 01:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The usage of Greater Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) -- 70.24.244.51 (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There was a discussion (see the above message from... November... 10 years ago!) to keep Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity), also known as Greater Armenia, instead of renaming it to Greater Armenia (see Talk:Kingdom_of_Armenia_(antiquity)#Requested_move_2). Users agreed that Greater Armenia was more common for the irredentist concept and that Kingdom of Armenia should be the main article. And yet today we have two articles for what I understand is the same thing. The other article is quite developed while this one is an unsourced stub with just two references and no infobox. Should we make Greater Armenia a disambiguation page mentioning Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) (aka the Kingdom of Greater Armenia) and United Armenia ("Greater Armenia" as a political concept)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a non-expert coming here from WikiProject:Classical Greece and Rome's article alerts, this argument makes sense—this relatively stubbish article has a title that suggests a modern political movement, and only applies to a small portion of the main topic, which isn't too big to be covered in a reasonably-sized and titled article that already exists. So whatever's here could be reasonably merged into "Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity)", and this title converted into a disambiguation page. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if more knowledgeable people think otherwise. P Aculeius (talk) 14:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Like P Aculeius I don't have any special knowledge of Armenian history but am here from WP:CGR; from the little I know and looking over these articles they do seem to be covering the same topic, in which case they should be merged. I don't have a strong opinion about whether the article should be at Greater Armenia with a hatnote pointing to United Armenia, or at Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) with a disambiguation page at Greater Armenia. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should I close the discussion and move forward with the merge? Or is there any way to gather more feedback on this proposal? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:36, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's up to you—if you think that more feedback is required, you could post on the talk pages of WikiProjects likely to be interested in this proposal. Or if you think it's pretty unlikely that there's going to be significant opposition to it—and given the premise of this proposal, and what we can see of the articles as they presently stand, that seems like a reasonable position—you can go ahead and merge this into Kingdom of Armenia, with hatnotes as needed. P Aculeius (talk) 13:08, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've posted here. Wait and see... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FYI Armenia Major, which is synonym with Greater Armenia redirects to... Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Your understanding of the terms is quite correct. Kingdom of Armenia refers to all territories within the kingdom (including outside the highlands), Greater Armenia is the part of the kingdom within the Armenian Highlands, and United Armenia is the concept. They are three different topics. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@KhndzorUtogh Thanks. Do you have RS confirming that "Greater Armenia" = "Parts of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia within the Armenian Highlands"?

And if you do have RS, what makes "Greater Armenia" notable enough to warrant having its own article? (instead of just a redirect to "Kingdom of Greater Armenia", to which it belonged) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, what were the territories of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia that were outside the Armenian Highlands? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 23:00, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose One refers to a geographic region and the other refers to a historic polity. I see no reason to merge what are essentially separate, if related, subjects into one article. AvRand (talk) 12:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Avrand6 What are you talking about? Which one is the "geographic region" and which one is the "historic polity"? No one has provided any RS so far proving that "Greater Armenia" was a polity or region different from the Kingdom of Greater Armenia. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're going to get any clarification—what you're seeing here is drive-by nationalist arguments that don't have a coherent point relevant to the original question, or any reliable sources. In case I'm wrong, you could give the last editor a day or two to respond—but otherwise I would suggest going ahead with your original proposal. P Aculeius (talk) 04:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@P Aculeius I agree, thanks. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: One is referring to the concept of Greater Armenia while the other mentions an ancient state. It would a bit confusing to conflate the two in one article. Rager7 (talk) 15:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rager7 What are you talking about? Which is which? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@a455bcd9 (Antoine) To further clarify, the Greater Armenia article is the general concept, and the Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) article is the ancient state. Hope you understand what I mean. Rager7 (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rager7: for "the Greater Armenia article", we have this article: United Armenia (also known as Greater Armenia or Great Armenia). Are you talking about that article? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@a455bcd9 (Antoine) I'm more specifically referring to this article Greater Armenia . The one we are discussing the merge right now. Rager7 (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rager7: ok but the concept of Greater Armenia is already the topic of United Armenia. So if this article Greater Armenia is about this concept, it should be merged with it (alternatively, United Armenia could be renamed "Greater Armenia). There's no point to have two articles about the same concept. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I see where you're saying merging the Greater Armenia article and United Armenia would avoid redundancy. Rager7 (talk) 16:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rager7 Exactly. That's why I suggested converting "Greater Armenia" into a disambiguation page pointing to United Armenia (the concept) and Kingdom of Armenian (the ancient kingdom). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@A455bcd9 Got it, it will further clarify the between the concept and the actual nation state. Rager7 (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@NmWTfs85lXusaybq: what are you doing? Why "A455bcd9 isn't eligible for closing the merge proposal themselves"? WP:MERGECLOSE: Any user, including the user who first proposed the merge, may close the discussion and move forward with the merge if enough time (normally one week or more) has elapsed and there has been no discussion or if there is unanimous consent to merge. @P Aculeius recommended I merge.

And why did you write "which is clear against consensus" when there are 2 opposes (Avrand6 & KhndzorUtogh: who did not dare to answer or provide more details for their non sensical answer) vs 4 supports (P Aculeius, Caeciliusinhorto, Rager7 [changed their mind after discussion] + me)?! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even in the case that you consider that I cannot close, then reopen instead of closing with The result of this discussion was do not merge. Non-sense. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:47, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's reopen it for further discussion. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]