User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Archive 5: Difference between revisions

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– July 2006 – October 2006 – November 2006 – January 2007

Could you pleae move Qadaa to Kaza? Kaza is the more common term in English. I proposed the move on Talk:Qadaa over a week ago and there were no objections. I had previously merged the old Kaza article (about the Ottoman term) and the Qadaa article (about the modern use in Arab-speaking countries). Thanks, and Happy New Year! --Macrakis 17:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, good job, thanks. I'm considering how best to do it. In theory, I ought to do a history merge, but that would result in a terrible jumble, with versions of both articles alternating in the new unified history. Maybe I'll do a - horribile dictu - cut'n paste move? What do you think? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the messy move/merge. And thanks for the explanation about phonemic diphthongs in Talk:Turkish language. --Macrakis 20:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Why didn't you warn Dodona for personal attacks? Miskin 09:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It was just a confused political rant. Not worth sweating over. But why did you reinstate the whole silly rest of the thread? I deleted the whole thing for a reason. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

That was an accident. Ranting or not I found his last edit really offensive. Miskin 10:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, can you take a quick look here. I am having some serious problems with civility on Tajik's part. I tried being nice, being formal, being humorous, but he still comes back with all types of personal attacks and degrading comments, both about me, about Turks and about I don't know what. I reported him for 3RR yesterday, but nothing happened. But the main problem is with civility. Thanks Baristarim 01:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your catch on this article. I wasn't sure which to go with, I just knew that it neeed to start heading toward the door. Pastordavid 12:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I just saw your edit summary - looks like you went to the trouble of filing that for nothing. -- Steel 13:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh, thanks. Perhaps I wouldn't myself have gone for such a long block, but I guess you're right... Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

This might be a long shot, but do you know (or know anyone who does) anything about Hrisi Avgi? -- Steel 13:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I really don't get why he's looking for trouble so much. The worst part is in the 3d rv he says "per NikoSilver", while I clearly said in talk "not reverting"... I really wish he could help me help him. NikoSilver 13:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, seems he can't stop himself. Just like our other right-wing friend I blocked again yesterday... Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

About Hrisi Avgi, I only know what's in the article, and that Mitsos is a self-declared sympathiser or member. I think he has described himself as a "Nazi" somewhere here on WP too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The other main editor to Hrisi Avgi gave up Wikipedia for the new year, and I'm concerned that it's become highly PoV since due to Mitsos. Greek politics (or whatever this is, not read the article myself) is not my strongpoint, and I'm trying to find someone knowledgeable in the area to take a look at it. -- Steel 14:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I know enough about it to know it doesn't merit an article this long. KP Botany 18:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Haven't seen the "Nazi" thing, although he identified as a "white supremacist" in his userpage. And regarding the "help me help him" comment, I and a lot of other Greek editors here have really tried. A lot. NikoSilver 14:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know... - BTW, the nazi comment was here: [1] Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I did answer the questions though! Thanks for the info. I have to have 100 post?

I have been her awhile, I just don't make many edits. If I must remove my RFA, could you do it for me? Dphantom15 16:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi FTS. There is not exact date on which modern Greek literature begins. Conveniently we consider "Digenis Akritas" as the first script of the modern Greek literature, the first script that is different from medieval (Byzantine) Greek. Emmanuel Legrand, Mario Vitti, and others argue in their works about when modern Greek literature begins: 9th, 10th, 11th, 1204, 1453 or 1669. The truth is that none can come to a conclusion, since the differences between modern and Byzantine Greek are very few. The θα in the future tense came in usage after the Hellenistic-Roman times, about the same time when οσπίτιον->σπίτι replaced οικία and νεαρόν->νερόν ύδωρ replaced ύδωρ; this, on its own is not enough to say that the song is older. The Swiss Samuel Baud-Bovy, in his La chanson grecque (pages 163-174) places the song in the 9th century; so does Linos Politis, in his History of modern Greek literature (5. Το Δημοτικό τραγούδι, Κυρίως άσματα, σελ. 103). Also, Fauriel, the man who made the Demotika songs known in the West, referred to their ancient roots, and the early composition of this specific one. Goethe, in a letter to his son, Augustus, on July 5 1815, referred to the demotika songs' early origins (I will write it in German, since I have it:)...): Ein Freud der Neugriechen war bei mir, der Lieder dieses Volkes mit sich fürt, das Köstlichste in dem Sinne der lyrisch-dramatisch-epischen Poesie, was wir kennen (K. Dieterich, "Goethe und die neugriechische Volksdichtung", Hellas-Jahrbuch, 1929, pp 61-81, and, for the Greek translation that I've read Σ.Β. Κουγέας, Νέα Εστία 11, 1932, σελ. 621 και εξής). Also, "Digenis Akritas" seems to have arisen from the demotika songs (Linos Politis "L' epopee byzantine de Digenis Akritas. Problemes de la tradition du texte et des rapports avec les chansons akritiques" in "Atti del Convegno Internationale sul tema: La poesia epica e la sua formazione", Rome, Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, 1970, pp 551-581. Also, the works of A. Pertusi); some academics say that it is in fact a composition of smaller demotika songs (the fact that in some places in Greece, only parts of this epic poem have survived during the ages, e.g. Η μονομαχία του Διγενή με τον Χάρο στα Μαρμαρένια Αλώνια, gives more credit to the demotika songs as an early modern Greek poetry-also have in mind that the link is unbroken, both towards ancient and modern times). Δεν έχω καταλάβει τί ακριβώς μου ζητάς για τις μελωδίες, την ηλικία και τη μετάδοση. Θα ψάξω να βρω παραπάνω στοιχεία για τη μετάδοση σε άλλους λαούς. Προς το παρόν, βρήκα αναλογία με την "Μπαλλάντα της Λεονώρας" στους δυτικούς ευρωπαϊκούς λαούς. You are right about the version that I have used in the article; it is the most widely known version, and the one I first read in my region. Unnecessary to refer to other versions, since there are too many. Apropos, the differences among them are, in fact, of no importance. The version I linked to is not the one I used for the translation (if u've noticed, line 39 of the translation, is missing from the link). Much regards Hectorian 19:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I kinda thought that u would be able to find one of the books i quoted above, but i did not know u had Politis':). Yes, the outline of the story is dated back to the 9th century. The same applies for Digenis Akritas; on page 27 of the book u already have, it talks about 6 versions of the poem (if i am not wrong, a 7th one has been discovered some years ago), some of which do not include some parts. "The Dead Brother's Song" had been used, sang and modified all this time until recently. The version i've used for the translation has been the most widely known, probably the one that has brought to our times most of the original text. It is like the Bridge of Arta song, which is still found in a variety of versions. About the θα in the future tense, i am not quite sure... maybe what i remember is that the two forms coexisted for some time (as it happens in all linguistic changes during the ages)-i will have to look it up.

The melody is the standard melody of the demotika songs. I am not sure if i am able to use the English terminology, but i bet u have heard demotika songs. (on page 20 of the book u have, there are full details about the iambic decapentasyllabic) (if Politis was not dead already, i could be accused that i am promoting him far too much LOL).

An article about the Decapentasyllabic verse / Politic verse (ξέρουμε γιατί το δεύτερο ονομάστηκε έτσι) would be indeed very interesting, and i was a bit disappointed that such an article does not exist already. it is on my "to do" list from now on...

I had no idea about the Lenore ballad until recently. but what i know about it is in the academic sphere. i would be grateful if u could give me a link with a translation of it in English, sometime, so as to see the relevance between both poems:). Ciao Hectorian 21:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

This scene is very similar indeed! It also reminded me somehow of the Sleepy Hollow... I'll see if i can find a translation of Lenore ballad in English or Greek; there must be! Cheers Hectorian 21:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!:). I'm gonna read it right away! Hectorian 22:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Very dramatic and sad that is...! Bürger did a really good job! Thanks again:) Hectorian 22:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

That's strange, I just did a test print and it was quite large and legible. What kind of printer settings or browser are you printing off of? Also, what may be the interest in printing my page if I may ask :)?¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 19:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Whoops sorry for the misunderstanding, no that little tidbit is not on purpose and I'm not too certain what is triggering that. Any suggestions? My html does have embarrassing amateurish eeps I must admit...¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 19:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Think I fixed it, check my talk page.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 20:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks, FPS :).¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 20:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes! Nice to be here! Do I have to change something in the page? I read something about changing the time. Do I have to? And if yes, what time exactly?!! At the top? The time of Aldux' signature? Thanks!--Yannismarou 20:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

OK! I figured it out!--Yannismarou 20:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I really hope this reasoning is not an one-off case. (I'm refering to this vs that) NikoSilver 22:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh, see what you mean... But I voted on this one, so I won't get involved in closing it. Of course, the "precedent", if it were one, would mean "no consensus", hence "keep"... That what you want? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Your precedent applies to the method, not to the result (of course). The method suggests that WP:COI votes should be discounted. Had there been more WP:INDY votes in either side in PGG, I'm sure your method would produce a different result from no consensus. For more information, check also this precedent. :-) NikoSilver 10:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

If the Maniots article was to be merged then would all the infomation be added onto the Mani Peninsula article? Kyriakos 11:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

PLease have a look at what I said at the Maniots article talk page. Thanks. Kyriakos 12:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

My one true weakness. Tombseye 06:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The checkuser actually wasn't done on wiki, but I can forward you the email if you want. I don't mind at all about the redirect either. Cheers, Khoikhoi 11:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I hadn't thought of Greier as well when I welcomed who I thought was a Hungarian user. ;-) Khoikhoi 11:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy, it's 4 days. Khoikhoi 19:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm just trying to get information. I have never seen a process open to move the article; Ottoman Muslim casualties of World War I to Ottoman casualties of World War I. The current content does not include other parts of the Ottoman millet such as Ottoman Armenian casualties. If there is one could you give me the link. Or are you willing to collect all these articles under the article that you moved the content? Also what is your base on moving these articles? Historically speaking I do not know anything, if you give me some citations for this action, I would appreciate. --OttomanReference 19:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It is my understanding that the AfD was very much also discussing the option of a move or merge, and as I pointed out in my remarks on the article talk page I see that move justified by the weight of the various opinions expressed there. As for the content, I take it from the AfD discussion that there was in fact willingness expressed by several editors to work on the article and improve it in a suitable fashion. If it should turn out that casualties of other groups within the Ottoman empire are not documented well enough to write much about, or if the figures found in the literature don't make sufficiently clear what groups are included, that can all be pointed out in the article too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The page has a very long debate history. Most of the people do not really have enough background, and they act on current national and religious beliefs. One's claims towards uniting conflicting fronts without their specific involvement is not enough for justification of deleting or renaming a historically valid concept. I have not seen (not solidified) the effort to gather all the sides under one article. Besides, the military casualties are Muslim millet, especially after the 1st battle battle of Sarikimas, I have never seen an citation claiming that Armenians, Jews or Greeks were in the hot conflicts which the Middle Eastern theatre of World War I covers hundreds of battles. All the Christians, Greeks Armenians and Assyrians perceive their casualties as "genocide" so they are not civilian casualties of Ottomans, which they form a special (specific) pages. That leaves us with Muslim millet. I 'm astonished that you might even mention the numbers do not belong to muslim millet, as depending on the source from a million to two and a half million people would not have any classification. A) "discussing the option of a move" is not enough to justify. B)"act willingness expressed" can be proven with the development on such a cooperation and the "merge" procedures are very clear. "Merge" can be performed after the "so called" cooperation develops and generates that page. C) "figures found" you need to prove this POV with the citations. Also, I would be delighted to have my hands on that citation. I'm looking for your justifications as soon as possible. Thanks. OttomanReference 19:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I replied here. There are some serious problems with that reasoning, and I will be applying it here as well. In fact you are right. The latest title can stay, but I hope that you will stick behind your reasoning and back me up when I will have moved the other article very soon. Thanks Baristarim 19:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the cut-and-paste move, I am sorry that I had to do it that way. So what are we going to do? I am thinking that both articles can stay, and we move the info about the Ottoman Muslim casualties to its link and break the redirect. Baristarim 21:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I also replied in the talk page, and suggested a solution.. What do you think? Baristarim 22:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I moved the page back to its original state. However I apparently made a typo and now there is a period at the end of the title and the redirects are a bit messy I think. Can you help me move it back to "Ottoman Muslim Casualties" proper? FP, most of the keep voters knew what they were voting for: a seperate article. Listen, I am trying to hear out some of the arguments, but I am afraid that the same logic can be applied to the polls in PGG, and you know that nearly all third-party editors that showed up there have expressed reservations with that title. I am more than sceptical when someone who had been acting just the opposite in another article changes the tune in another article. This issue was discussed to death, and anyone can create a new article at the redirect, however this page should remain where it is, and keep its history. Baristarim 16:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I've undone the mistaken move; the rest is left to you. As I said, my decision yesterday was not a binding administrative act, so it's all up to you, if you guys must move war, be my guest. About the "logic" behind it all, I'm not aware that I have "changed my tune", nor do I see how what I said would carry over to the PGG case in the way you seem to think. I'm afraid both you and Niko substantially misunderstood what I was saying on both occasions. We seem to be all misunderstanding each other all the time these days. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Don't worry, I know that same logic cannot apply to PGG, but my point was just an exaggerated analogy. By the way, on a more technical note, I seem to have problem with moving pages from time to time. Why is that? And what can I do about it? I had to ask some admins if they could do the move on such occasions, but they were mostly uncontroversial therefore it was easier. In this case I suppose that I first didn't see a problem since my latest move included a typo. Cheers! Baristarim 17:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Moves can't be done by non-admin if there's already a page at the target location, unless that page is itself only a redirect with no changes in its history. I yesterday deleted all the confused move history of that redirect page, so it should be "clean" now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right. However, Dirak just move the page to "World War 1" just to be able get around the redirects that made the page move impossible. 1 is never used. And the page histories got messed up again. I really find this very inappropriate, the AfD was closed as Keep and any potential moves/new articles should have been discussed in the talk page. I will be careful about 3RR and move warring, however I am deeply troubled with what's going on... Thanks for sparing your time to deal with this mess btw. Cheers! Baristarim 23:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

And the view of the majority was a universal title. //Dirak 23:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

No it wasn't.. People knew exactly what they were voting for: a seperate article. Nobody is stopping anyone from creating a new article with a more comprehensive title. This article should stay with its history, and a new article created if need be. Baristarim 23:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Now that I had to call in Nishkid to help us pick the right Wrong Version and protect it, could you two please at least help to tidy up the mess of all the broken redirects and stuff? Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, the wrong page was protected. This is what should have been protected [2]. It should be restored to the last good/stable title (i.e. the one by you) and protected. //Dirak 23:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ok, I will do it to the protected version. But, unfortunately, again, the histories of the redirects are messed up which would render any future moves impossible. "1" is not the correct version to begin with.. I have never been opposed to the creation of another article, however this move messes up the article's history since it has always been about the original title. There should be a new article with a new history if need be. FP, this has been a really disturbing. The move was done very haphazardly and in very sneaky fashion. The AfD closed as keep, and most people knew what they were voting for. This should have been discussed in the talk page. Baristarim 23:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The protect was correct: the AfD was closed as keep, and any further moves require concensus. This is fine, and anyone not happy with the title should raise them in the talk page. And without using "1"s to get around the redirects - which is disrespectful against the wikiprocess. Baristarim 23:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yawn, violating the 3RR which you did is also disrespectful against the wikiprocess. //Dirak 00:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Fixed the redirects.. I really hate finding myself in such situations, and worse having to oblige others to waste their time on such issues - therefore I am truly sorry FP about the inconvenience this has caused. Hopefully it has not taken too much of your time from doing things more worthwhile. cheers Baristarim 00:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

? He protected it here [3]. He protected "Ottoman 1" after the protection at "Ottoman Muslim". In any case, I will break the redirect at "Ottoman Muslim" and start a new article later this week if this charade is not resolved. "1" was, IMO, a method of overriding impossible page moves. This is really lame FP.. And we are letting this happen? That article should be moved back to keep its history consistent, and a new article created at "Ottoman" with content transfer from "Ottoman Muslim". Why is this charade happening? Baristarim 00:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Struck out my comments. The page is protected and I don't want to disturb anyone with this any more for the moment. Sorry about the mess FP, we do deserve to be blocked :( Baristarim 00:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't anybody dare start new pages here. The page stays where the page history is, for as long as it is protected. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok Baristarim 00:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear FPaS, Thanks for your contribution in template and sample use in Çanakkale. We have allready another variable there, "image" which has exactly same value as "sortkey". I am planning to delete "image" variable and use "sortkey" variable instead it, to keep as simple as possible. If I use, "sortkey" variable, for example in; "Image:{{{:sortkey}}} Turkey provinces Locator.jpg" will there be any problem with this variable.?

• Where can I find all details of programming in wiki?

Regards Must^TC 20:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, if you can guarantee the "image" variable always has the same value as the one needed for sortkey, we can of course unify it. The template techniques are a bit tricky to learn; I found a few things at m:Parser functions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I think yes, has same value. But there may be some exeptions in article names which include more than one turkish character. I will check all provinces, just now. I replaced "image" variables with "sortkey" in template. Also I deleted image parameter in Çanakkale Province. It worked. No problem. I will check parser functions. Lets see my old programming experiments would be helper to me or not?

Thanks a lot. Regards.Must^TC 21:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for comments. Ok I will check situation for different cases before any change.Must^TC 21:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You may right in hierarchical point of wiev.

• I followed generally old categarization, in old versions of the articles mostly there was Turkey category.
• In any case, to cleanup the articles will be much easy in the future, only changing one parameter or deleting only one sentence in template.no need to deal articles one by one.

  You are right in your last comment;"image" & "provname" are substitude of each others(one in Eng.letters other Tr.) in only Province names, not in articles other than Provinces. Ok. Lets keep "image" & "sortkey" variables seperately.

Regards. Must^TC 22:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

If you offer still stands, I'm willing to try and run the gauntlet... yandman 09:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, let's talk about it later today - right now I'm rather busy, okay? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Maybe I should get back to earning my salary too. yandman 09:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Fut.Perf., Our intention at Phantis was indeed to create a free wiki, under GFDL, for yourselves - and anyone else - to freely use, copy, etc. At one point, it was brought to our attention that it was wrong for us to copy information from you without proper acknowledgement. We then created the "Credit Wikipedia" template which you may have noticed on several of our articles. Should you think that a better way exists, all suggestions are welcome. Hope this has been of help, if not, please contact Lazarus - the man who pays the bills in Phantis - for further discussion. I will let him know you contacted me. Many thanks for doing so and I hope we may continue to aid one another in our ultimate goal which is to spread knowledge freely on the web - --Irlandos 11:33, January 22, 2007 (EST)

See my latest additions to Talk:Names of Istanbul. --Macrakis 21:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

hello already i read your mensage and I see that you do not like my name of user not itself because I bother you my USERNAME of user that name it choised I because i like, i don't understand that ask me about my user and i don't know do that!!!--Hjncfkdnmhbjk 00:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for having sounded like a process-wank. The entry just stuck out, and my brain was on auto-reply-mode. Personally I'd just have prodded that template, it really doesn't need a full blown TfD :) CharonX/talk 01:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks 4 everything; I'm looking for the Ottoman Armenian casualties, I hope you show the same sensibility. --OttomanReference 01:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...this is a tough one. The current title is indeed ridiculous. The main problem that I see, is that the article is almost a POV fork of the Armenian Genocide page, making it seem like it was just a civil war. I know that Fadix wrote the Ottoman Armenian casualties article, he might be someone to ask. Another person I recommend is Cglassey—he is a historian who knows a great deal about the Ottoman Empire during World War I. However, to be honest, I really don't like either of those titles, and would prefer Something Completely Different... I need some time to think about this one I guess. Khoikhoi 09:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was actually watching that AfD. Anyways, I feel somewhat uncomfortable about moving the page at this point; I feel that in a way, it would be taking sides. I guess the grammar is bad for the current title, but think about how many Wikipedia articles out there are just crap (take a look at Special:Random if you don't believe me). You'll find pages with tons of spelling mistakes, bad grammar, etc. I just found Seidokan right now. So in conclusion, I suppose you'll have you find someone else to move it for you. Sorry. :-( Khoikhoi 09:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I confirm that Meta user m:User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, making this edit [4], is me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)