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Has anyone else noticed the rampant [[systemic bias]] in this article? Nine of the ten squirrels pictured are ''[[Sciurus]]'' (of which at least three are [[eastern gray squirrel]]s), and I bet that Eleanor Roosevelt's coat was also made of ''Sciurus'' squirrels! Clearly there must be some pro-''Sciurus'' POV-pushing conspiracy at work here. [[User talk:Ucucha|Ucucha]] 03:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed the rampant [[systemic bias]] in this article? Nine of the ten squirrels pictured are ''[[Sciurus]]'' (of which at least three are [[eastern gray squirrel]]s), and I bet that Eleanor Roosevelt's coat was also made of ''Sciurus'' squirrels! Clearly there must be some pro-''Sciurus'' POV-pushing conspiracy at work here. [[User talk:Ucucha|Ucucha]] 03:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
:(This referred to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Squirrel&direction=prev&oldid=345159559 this version].) [[User talk:Ucucha|Ucucha]] 05:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:08, 20 February 2010

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Worldwide view

While there have been - evidently unresolved - discussions over what this article actually should cover (see this; also worth noting that a merge tag remains on Sciuridae), the fact remains that it, no matter how you look at it (all members of Sciuridae [in which case these two articles should be merged], Sciurini [in which case these two articles should be merged] or only species where "squirrel" is an actual part of the name), this article lacks a worldwide view, as there, in all options I can think of, still would be a majority of species found outside USA/Canada. In fairness, of course, there currently is a brief mention of squirrels in Britain, and a very brief mention of species found elsewhere in the intro, but that barely broadens the overall perspective. Where are all the African, Neotropical and Asian species? If someone think there should be an article largely about US/Canadian species, it should be on "Squirrels of USA and Canada" or something like that ("North America Squirrels" might also be a good idea, but then people should remember the numerous species from Mexico & Central America). Regardless, the current squirrel article remains problematic. • Rabo³02:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a US English speaker on the west coast and the idea that ground squirrels weren't just as much squirrels as tree squirrels surprised me. In common usage of the term squirrel, I think many English speakers would see every member of Sciuridae as a squirrel except the marmots and the prairie dogs that he might see as members of the squirrel family but not necessarily squirrels. The point is that in my experience as an English speaker there is an almost complete overlap between the word squirrel and a member of the Sciuridae family. So based on that I would reluctantly agree with the above that the articles should be merged. But I enjoyed both articles and I wouldn't like to see the flavor of either article lost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davefoc (talkcontribs) 18:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is best solved on the disambiguation page. Meet me at the squirrel (disambiguation) Discussion page and we'll sort this out in a general way quite quickly. We may or may not need an umbrella article called "squirrel" at all. Chrisrus (talk) 00:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Range map

Here is a national geographic range map of squirrels: [1] It would be quite easy to copy this map and add it to this page, using the Template:Taxobox travb (talk) 18:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the distribution map would add something to the article but wouldn't the use of the map be a copyright violation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davefoc (talkcontribs) 18:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does the average English speaker think that the range of the word, squirrel, is restricted to the genus Sciurus?

This sentence was added:

In the English-speaking world, squirrel commonly refers to members of this family's genera Sciurus and Tamiasciurus, which are tree squirrels with large bushy tails, indigenous to Asia, the Americas and Europe

This could be true, it is different than what this 59 year old native English speaker understands the word to mean. However it is consistent with the first definition given in some dictionary definitions. One problem with those definitions is that the average English speaker probably doesn't know the difference between a genus and a phylum so the idea that the average English speaker has some kind of formal taxonomic definition in mind when he uses the word strikes me as problematic.

I think the genera mentioned was an attempt to describe what matches what the average English speaker thinks of as a squirrel, it doesn't imply he is consciously using the genera as a guideline. Also, I think there are two "squirrel" usages here. There is what one might think of a generic squirrel (which will depend on where one lives...grey, red, etc), then there are things one might see as kind of squirrel but require special qualification (flying, ground, etc.). I think that quote attempts to capture the former.--Ericjs (talk) 05:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An on-line National Geographic article uses the word in the way that suggests they don't see it as in anyway restricted to a particular genus.
From http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/squirrel.html:

Squirrels are familiar to almost everyone. More than 200 squirrel species live all over the world, with the notable exception of Australia.

The tiniest squirrel is the aptly named African pygmy squirrel—only five inches (thirteen centimeters) long from nose to tail. Others reach sizes shocking to those who are only familiar with common tree squirrels. The Indian giant squirrel is three feet (almost a meter) long.

Maybe this is a west coast/east coast thing or maybe it's a European/American/Canadian English speaker difference that I wasn't aware of.

I notice that there are not any native ground squirrels in Massachusetts and perhaps not on the American and Canadian East coasts and ground squirrels don't seem to occur in the UK. Does that mean that speakers from these areas tend to limit their ideas of squirrels to tree and flying squirrels? Maybe. My thought though is that if they came to the North American west coast and saw a California ground squirrel they would just see it as a squirrel that lived in a burrow instead of a tree. However, I suspect that the average English speaker may or may not see Marmots, prairie dogs and chipmunks as squirrels. They might see them as members of the squirrel family but I doubt that they would see those animals as squirrels without some thought.

In summary, maybe the sentence is OK, it does say "commonly refers to" which doesn't mean that the word, squirrel, doesn't commonly refer to a wider range of animals also. Perhaps the sentence could be amended to something like this:

In the English speaking world the word squirrel commonly refers to arboreal squirrels (genera Sciurus, Syntheosciurus and Tamiasciurus) and flying squirrels but squirrel also is used commonly to refer to most members of the squirrel family (Scuidae).

Davefoc (talk) 18:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • When someone says "squirrel" you think of ... (wait for it)... a squirrel. I could see confusing a chipmunk for a squirrel, but a marmot? I don't think so (at least not the fat waddling marmots we have where I live). Perhaps in the scientific community this is the case, but in the world at large, "squirrel" refers to squirrels. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In British English there is certainly no restriction of "squirrel" as suggested. Squirrels to us include tree squirrels, ground squirrels, chipmunks, flying squirrels etc – though in fact you are right Davefoc, we do only get tree squirrels here. In general use "squirrel" includes the whole family Sciuridae. And yes, of course marmots and chipmunks are squirrels. If this claim is true anywhere, we need to say where – with refs to support it. Richard New Forest (talk) 18:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant is that scientifically marmots may be a member of the squirrel family, but this article is about the specific animals commonly referred to as squirrels. Of course the association between these animals should be mentioned, but we have seperate articles on the marmot, chipmunk, and prarie dog so there's no need to cover them here other than a mention of their relation to the common squirrels. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was not talking scientifically, but about common usage in Britain. "Squirrel" is the BrEng common name for any member of the squirrel family. We need a clear ref for any different interpretation – which (if true anywhere) must surely be a local dialect form. If I'm right about that, the following text would cover it: "in some regions the word 'squirrel' may be restricted to tree squirrels". Richard New Forest (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Beeblebox, I agree, I think. And what I said above agrees I think: They [average English speakers] might see them [marmots, prairie dogs and chimpmunks] as members of the squirrel family but I doubt that they would see those animals as squirrels without some thought.

My issue was whether the average English speaker would not see ground squirrels such as the California ground squirrel as squirrels. In my west coast world I have never heard them referred to as anything but squirrels. Until I spent a bit of time editing the wikimedia pages on squirrels I wasn't aware that the ground squirrels and tree squirrels were as far apart taxonomically as they are. But I didn't know that marmots were even in the squirrel family until I read about it.

I was making the above comments as Richard New Forest was making his. I think his input as a British English speaker is valuable and it seems like Beeblebox was just objecting to the inclusion of marmots and prairie dogs as squirrels in this article. As I noted above, this English speaker didn't even realize that marmots were part of the squirrel family until fairly recently. Perhaps my words most members of the Scuridae family is what beeblebox objected to. I used the word most rather than all because I was thinking of the marmots and prairie dogs. Perhaps my suggested sentence could be amended to:

In the English speaking world the word squirrel commonly refers to arboreal squirrels (genera Sciurus and Tamiasciurus for instance) and flying squirrels but squirrel also is used commonly to refer to most members of the squirrel family (Scuidae). Although, many English speakers would not see Marmots and Prairie dogs (which are placed in Scuridae) as squirrels.

I agree with Richard New Forest that some references are required for the above. I think that they can be found.Davefoc (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is probably worth pointing out that this article has an image of a golden-mantled ground squirrel in it.Davefoc (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I grew up the midwest, and there a variety of tree squirrels there. When I moved to Alaska, I noticed the squirrels were smaller, but it took me a while to realize that most of them were ground squirrels. Of course that's just me. I noticed the mantled squirrel, that looks an awful lot like a chipmunk to me. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article content and title

We are getting a little bogged down with the word "squirrel". The principle in Wikipedia is for each article to be about one "thing". We then decide what the best name is for that thing. Looking at this and related articles, it becomes clear that we have duplicate articles:

The first of these three must be a duplicate of one of the others, and at the moment it looks clear to me that we need at least one merge. What about splitting the current article (squirrel) into the other two, leaving a dab for the two dialect meanings of the word "squirrel". Any other thoughts? I see that there is already a merge tag on Sciuridae proposing a merge of that into squirrel, but there is no corresponding tag on squirrel, nor a discussion section here on the merge. Richard New Forest (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are addressing what is the more significant issue Richard New Forest. The title of an article about Sciuridae (squirrel family) should be titled Sciruidae, so I think the general Sciuridae stuff that is relevant and not redundant in this article should be merged into the Sciuridae article.
After that somebody needs to figure out what this article should be about if it has a purpose at all. Some possibilities:
  • A short article discussing the range of the world squirrel (your dialect meaning article essentially I think).
  • An article restricted to tree squirrels (Maybe covering tribis Sciurini (Sciurus,Syntheosciurus, Tamiasciurus, etc.)). ETA: I just reread Richard New Forest's comments and realized that this article already existsTree squirrel. So if anything the tree squirrel specific parts of this article that arent' redundant and that are relevant should be merged into the tree squirrel article.
  • An article focused more on the human/squirrel interactions such as pets, hunting of them, pests and pest control, and their use as food.
I just noticed that there is a sister wikipedia for "simple English". Apparently the idea is to create a Wikipedia aimed at younger readers or readers looking for a simpler handling of topics than is typical of the English Wikipedia. Maybe some of this article would have use there.
One thing that should happen is that the authors of the Sciuridae article need to be brought into this discussion. I think I'll post a note over there that a discussion about the fate of the Squirrel article and a possible merge with Sciuridae has started here.Davefoc (talk) 18:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I had no idea there was a Sciruidae article. Given the overlap these two articles should be merged. I think we should combine these two, but split off all content specifically on tree squirrels and ground squirrels into their own articles, leaving the main article as a general overview and a disambiguation page. If anyone has any template crafting skills, there are enough articles here for a navbox template between the articles on squirrels, prairie dogs, and marmots. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I missed that there are already several navboxes, maybe too many. They can be seen at the bottom of Sciuridae Beeblebrox (talk) 21:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to MSW3, EOL, ADW and TOL Sciuridae are known as squirrels. Therefore, Sciuridae should be merged into this article and there should either be a hatnote or a sentence in the lead (like the one at the moment) that mentions the use of squirrel to refer to tree squirrels and ground squirrels. Squirrel (disambiguation) should link to Squirrel, mentioning the article is about the genus, tree squirrels and ground squirrels. If there is no opposition I will merge the articles in the next few days. Jack (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good idea. Also, making the dialectal discussion of "Squirrel" the disambiguation page is perhaps the best option. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 02:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds good to me Jack. The idea has been around long enough and there hasn't been any significant objection I think. What we lacked was a volunteer.Davefoc (talk) 04:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

White Squirrels and other abnormalities

Not mentioned is a small colony of white squirrels living in Trinity-Bellwoods Park in Toronto Ontario Canaada (a small nearby street has even been named after them, White Squirrel Way). Debate exists as to whether these are true albinos or if their appearance is due to a different genetic mutation. While black squirrels with white tips are mentioned in the article, I have not seen these but have seen many, many black squirrels with rust-coloured fur on their back ends that varies in colour (sometimes lighter, sometimes darker) and extension (sometimes appearing on only the tips of the tails, sometimes extending halfway up the body).

Also not mentioned in the article are grey squirrels with ringed tails, which have recently been identified in Toronto and across the United States (New York, New Jersey, California, Louisiana, Missouri, Minnesota, Washington, South Carolina; see the second update and the comments to the blog posted here: http://sisu.typepad.com/sisu/2004/08/_western_kentuc.html). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.65.66 (talk) 14:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Squirrels are also women/men who are on the nutts, mainly women who are obsessed with men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecewentboom (talkcontribs) 02:24, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Longevity

No indication of squirrel longevity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.253.130 (talk) 09:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a large population of white squirrels here on the campus of Western Kentucky University. You can contact pretty much anyone at WKU to confirm this ... www.wku.edu.

Thanks, Brad Hornal bradhornal@hotmail.com

Disregard the WKU comment. It is mentioned later in the article. I have seen two albino squarrels in Eau claire WI. Illinois holds the worlds largest natural albino colony in the world. There is a distance of decay that is associated with the locations of WI &IL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.28.184.236 (talk) 13:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disregard the WKU comment. It is mentioned later in the article.

The last sentence reads: Under British law, the eastern grey squirrel is regarded as vermin, and it is illegal to release any into the wild; any caught must be either destroyed or kept captive.

The law on this has changed and squirrels can be release under licence: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article3378581.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.106.65 (talk) 11:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This reference is out of date (page not found error) - cite web | author=Susan Saliga | title=Backyard Squirrel Feeding Tips | work=Wisconsin Squirrel Connection | url=http://home.wi.rr.com/frettchen/BACKYARD%20SQUIRREL%20FEEDING%20TIPS.htm | accessdate=2007-02-07

This seems to be the updated correct url - http://wisquirrelrehab.com/BACKYARD%20SQUIRREL%20FEEDING%20TIPS.htm Garybhuang (talk) 21:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)  Done[reply]

I have updated the article with the accurate UK squirrel law and the broken URL noted above. –Megaboz (talk) 02:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Predatory Squirrels

Is there anyone else that thinks the "predatory squirrel behavior" section should be moved to the Wikipedia article about Thirteen-lined ground squirrels? It makes it sound like all squirrels are vicious killers when most squirrels only eat the occasional grasshopper due to hunger. It's good information. I just think it's in the wrong place. I'm not going to move it without consensus though. What do you guys think? Maurajbo (talk) 00:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It is worth mentioning that some squirrels are carnivorous, but the article goes into too much detail about the eating habits of one particular type of predory squirrel. –Megaboz (talk) 02:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The grey squirrel commonly found in Britain is frequently carnivorous, regularly eating eggs and nestlings of birds as well as other small animals it can catch. The red squirrel also does this. It looks to me as if the examples given are particular studies of more general squirrel behaviour, rather than descriptions of two (not one) exceptionally predatory species. It therefore looks to me as if that material does belong here.
However, the stuff about the dog is not supported by the ref and looks highly exaggerated at the very least (perhaps one or two squirrels were chewing on a dead dog, but many squirrels did certainly not kill a large dog and carry off parts of the carcase!). I don't think it tells us much about the diet of squirrels generally, so I've removed it. Richard New Forest (talk) 09:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Rodents

This is a notice to inform interested editors of a new WikiProject being proposed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Rodents --ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 02:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prevost's Squirrel

(Callosciurus prevosti) "Provost Squirrel is also known as the tricolored squirrel, the prevost's squirrel is strikingly colored, with black, white, and reddish-brown bands down the length of the animal." [1] The provost squirrel is usually found in the lowland forests of Borneo and Thailand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Em299207 (talkcontribs) 14:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This species is covered by its own article: Prevost's Squirrel (Callosciurus prevostii). I don't think it needs a mention in Squirrel, does it? Richard New Forest (talk) 15:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


terrritory

I was wondering how far a person needs to haul a squirrel away to keep it away? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.228.124.67 (talk) 23:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no expert, but I've faced this problem before. A couple of miles ought to do it. They aren't big homing animals and probably won't be back unless there's just no where else for them to go. They are most concerned with getting food, it seems, and other squirrelly things, which doesn't seem to include getting back to their home territory. I'm talking about Eastern Grays. Chrisrus (talk) 02:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Red/Grey hybrid

Can Red Squirell and Grey Squirells cross breed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.185.184 (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you're talking of the two species found in Britain, no, but I've heard the suggestion that male grey squirrels may chase male reds away from the female reds. Richard New Forest (talk) 18:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We live in central Ontario and have both black, grey and red squirrels and have observed the black squirrels for several years sitting on a stone pathway, selecting a stone after checking out several and then heading either to our septic bed to bury the stone or out into the bush and then returning later for more. There does not seem to be any food cache where they leave the stones. Is the behaviour usual and why do they do it.? Have other people observed it? mijco@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.59.173.42 (talk) 17:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Squirrel vaccines?

The section on the eastern gray mentions "the Squirrel parapoxvirus for which no vaccine is presently available". Is this mention of vaccines a mistake, or have I somehow missed the fact that we commonly inoculate wild rodents? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.10.207 (talk) 06:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone post info on article and reply here when done?

How much do they stay in their nests to conserve body heat in the winter? Thanks. Imagine Reason (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Albino squirrel discussion

I had an edit reverted by the XLink bot in a way that I believe is not fair. As a result, I left a note in the XLink's talk page, and am doing so here, in order to explain why I am re-editing the text back into the article that the XLink removed.

The text in question was regarding my reference to a Facebook group, which put up a red flag that alerted the XLink bot to come here and remove it. After deliberating on it in an objective way, and after reading through the Wikipedia policies regarding this, I've decided to put the reference (and the text) back into the article.

What this reference was in regard was about where I wrote about a cult following in and around the Michigan Tech University campus in Houghton, Michigan, where an albino squirrel has become locally famous and inspired the creation of an online group where people post stories and photographs of their albino squirrel sightings. In referencing this cult phenomenon, I included a link to the web page where these stories and photographs are posted, which happens to be a Facebook group. The bot reverted my edit because of the Facebook link, which I believe was a legitimate use for the reference. I will go ahead and place the link to the Facebook account back, and if anyone has a disagreement with me about it, let's discuss it, either here or on my Talk page. --Saukkomies talk 00:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Saukkomies, I've reverted your edit again. A link to a Facebook group is not a sufficiently reliable source (otherwise we'd have rather a lot of them, don't you think?). Furthermore. the occurence of a single albino squirrel is just not of sufficent notability to be mentioned in this overview article. Franamax (talk) 00:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, U. of Texas, which has just one albino squirrel, gets mentioned, but not Michigan Tech U.? Isn't that a bit unfair? And the link to Facebook is not meant as a reliable proof of the squirrel's existence, it is a reliable proof of the cultural impact of the albino squirrel on the community. This is further support for this entire section of the article. I plan on putting the edit back in unless a better line of logic can be presented, since otherwise it appears to be treating one academic institution in a more favorable manner than another, each of which has a group dedicated to an albino squirrel on its campus, but one gets to have its name mentioned, and the other is told to buzz off. Nice.... --Saukkomies talk 02:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, I've included a newspaper quote substantiating the existence of multiple albino squirrels on the campus of Michigan Technological University. If you have a problem with that, Franamax, then you'd better go take a walk and get a grip on reality. I have no idea where all the bother and fuss over this issue that you seem to have is coming from, but if you want a fight, I'm willing to take it up a notch and contact an admin. --Saukkomies talk 04:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please stay a bit more civil, Saukkomies? There appears to be a legitimate disagreement about the suitability of some facts in this article. There is no need to contact an admin; I am one, and will be watching this discussion. Ucucha 04:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have you seen the section in question? It lists five other campuses across North America that report having albino squirrel populations. So, I add another one - and I get blasted as a result! Not just once, but twice reverted. And I know for a fact that there are albino squirrels at Michigan Tech, because I almost ran over one on my way to work one morning. The Facebook group that I originally included was only meant to illustrate that there is a cultural impact on the community here in regards to the local albino squirrel population - of course it's not a "reliable" source, but it is proof of the cultural impact, and that is the whole thesis of that section - it is the cultural impact that albino squirrels are having on their communities. I feel like I am being singled out for mis-treatment over this issue - why do all the other campuses listed get to mention their albino squirrels, and not MTU? Of course I'm torqued, this is unfair. --Saukkomies talk 04:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're not being singled out. I've reftagged the section, I'll wait a little while then clean out at least anything unsubstantiated. The whole section is a mess and I question its existence at all. Why does our worldwide readership care which American university campuses have albino squirrels? The content just reflects the fact that many Wikipedia editors are university students. This is a typical problem with all "In popular culture" sections, they become dumping grounds for trivia. The answer is not to "fight" to include your own piece of trivia, it's to clean the whole thing up. Franamax (talk) 09:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(margin readjusted)

Okay, it's the next morning, I've had my coffee, I am much more objective about this... I do see where you're coming from on this, Franamax. I suppose my use of the Facebook link was what triggered this whole thing. However, do you see how from my perspective it seems unfair that I get to be the one who is told not to post about albino squirrels on university campuses? At any rate, that's water under the bridge. What I believe is that you're completely missing the entire point of this section of the article. It has nothing to do with whether albino squirrels exist or not - the issue is not related to biology or zoology. The entire point of the section is that it is demonstrating the **cultural impact** that albino squirrels seem to have on human society. This makes it an anthropological and sociological issue.

So in this regard it is entirely acceptable and even necessary to cite specific instances where idiosyncratic social groups are formed by individuals who, acting through the processes of Gesellschaft and social interaction, and motivated by the impetus for identity formation, come together to paticipate in community building activities centered around the localized phenomenon of the presence of albino squirrels in their respective neighborhoods. This is one way that albino squirrels play a role in human society. I do hope that you can understand how this is not the same thing as trying to prove whether albino squirrels exist or not (which is what it seems to me that you are focused on here). The fact is that it actually makes no difference from a sociological perspective whether these albino squirrels even existed or not - the point is that they have a **cultural impact** on society - hence the inclusion of this subsection under the larger discussion of the "In culture" section. The fact that you seem to think this section is "a mess" (I use your words) indicates you have no idea of what is going on here. Please do NOT edit out stuff that is beyond your ken simply because you do not understand it.

And, btw, my use of the link to a Facebook group that was formed to post photos and stories of encounters with an albino squirrel (and which is actually quite active as Facebook groups go) was entirely in keeping with providing substantiating and solid support for the thesis of how albino squirrels have a cultural impact on human society. I still am considering whether or not to at some point re-include that link somehow into the article, regardless of any specific person's ability to perceive its value. It is sound academic practice to provide support of a thesis, and applying a rule in a whimsical way just because it is a rule goes against Wikipedia doctrine that states that one should overlook rules when they interfere with the encyclopedic use of presenting the thesis and substantiating it (so long as legalities are not infringed upon, which in this case they are not). --Saukkomies talk 14:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see, the problem here seems to be the same. Saukkomies, we are not saying that albino squirrels don't exist, or that the facebook page is not proving that; we are not saying that there are no white squirrels on that campus, or wherever, but again, the existence of the facebook group does not proof that. What we here say is, that the existence of a facebook group is not making the fact that they have a local group for it notable. All that type of information is not notable because of its existence, it may be notable if it is covered somewhere else. If I see it that way, only the first paragraph is referenced, and there seems to be enough notability there, the rest has no place there, unless it can be properly referenced.
You wrote:

In Houghton, Michigan there is at least one albino squirrel that lives on and around the campus of the Michigan Technological University, and is frequently spotted. A Facebook group called "I've Seen the Albino Squirrel of Michigan Tech" is dedicated to this squirrel (or squirrels) by local residents and students, and includes photographs of the albino squirrel.

That type of linking is discouraged, and the link to the group is not necessary. It should have read:

In Houghton, Michigan there is at least one albino squirrel that lives on and around the campus of the Michigan Technological University, and is frequently spotted. A Facebook group called "I've Seen the Albino Squirrel of Michigan Tech" is dedicated to this squirrel (or squirrels) by local residents and students, and includes photographs of the albino squirrel.(reference)

(where the reference should point to independent coverage). XLinkBot's revert was hence, according the guideline, and the removal of the text in line with removal of information which is not supported by a reliable source. I hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:01, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Beetstra, thank you for your constructive criticism and practical example. I deeply appreciate the time you spent in addressing this issue of concern, which indicates a level of respect I found lacking in the simple "I'm reverting your edit..." messages I was previously receiving on this issue. I do see the difference between the two examples you gave. Since I've already provided a reference from a mainstream daily newspaper article substantiating the existence of these albino squirrels on the Michigan Tech campus, I believe I'll just go ahead and use the text of your example, adding the citational reference at the end. Thanks again, and I hope this matter is now resolved to everyone's satisfaction. --Saukkomies talk 15:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose sometimes work gets done because of annoying reasons, and such is the case here. As a result of the frustration I was encountering over this whole albino squirrel issue, I decided to spend the afternoon reworking that section. I hope my efforts will be received warmly by those who expressed concern over this section, and if anything has been said regarding the events leading up to this reworking that are offensive or rude, I sincerely offer my apologies and offer this result of my labor as proof of my earnestness, and as a possible penance for such.
At any rate, there still are references in the section that are missing, however they are only for claims that were already in the text that had been placed there before I started work on it this afternoon, and I didn't remove them. I did include more information, but I made certain that anything and everything I wrote was backed-up by a solid, reliable source. As such, I decided to remove the tag that was placed on that section warning editors to use valid sources. Instead, I placed some (citation needed) tags on a few of the unsourced claims. --Saukkomies talk 20:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be helpful to remember that we're writing an encyclopedia. Not all factual information is worth noting, even if sources are available. If there aren't independent, reliable sources available, mention should be kept to a minimum, if we have any mention at all. See WP:UNDUE, WP:RS, and WP:SYN. --Ronz (talk) 20:58, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And there you have it. I knock myself out for most of a day to try to clean that section up, and what do I get? An expression of thanks? A "Good job, buddy!"? A note of support or actual constructive criticism? Nope. Just a note to shut up. Thanks a lot Ronz. --Saukkomies talk 21:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Saukkomies, when you enter a discussion telling people to get a grip on reality and that they have no idea what's going on, you're not likely to get congratulated at the end. No-one at all has told you to shut up, the battlefield mentality is of your own making. We're not here as a mutual back-slapping society or a cage-match martial arts bout, we're trying to write a quality encyclopedia, remember?
Your changes are in fact very good, the section is decently structured and sourced now. Thank you. (Actually I should get the credit, yesterday I said the section was a mess, today it's not, so it must be something I did ;) There is still the open question of undue weight but the section is now well-enough written that I have no particular concerns in that area. Franamax (talk) 23:00, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the decent response, Franamax. I suppose what got my hackles up was having my contribution to the article reverted twice. However, it's all for the best, and although it is perhaps a little long in the tooth, the section is a good one, and worth the read for anyone who has an interest in this sort of thing. I do believe that some people underestimate the value of an in-depth coverage of the impact that the white squirrel has on society. However, there are others who would completely disagree with that summation, and would welcome a factual, well-rounded account of this subject, which is what we have. So, off to my other projects (this was definitely not something I usually am involved in - but I got side-tracked). Ta ta! --Saukkomies talk 00:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?

Should these pages be merged? Please discuss at Talk:Sciuridae#Merge?. —innotata (TalkContribs) 00:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Systemic bias

Has anyone else noticed the rampant systemic bias in this article? Nine of the ten squirrels pictured are Sciurus (of which at least three are eastern gray squirrels), and I bet that Eleanor Roosevelt's coat was also made of Sciurus squirrels! Clearly there must be some pro-Sciurus POV-pushing conspiracy at work here. Ucucha 03:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(This referred to this version.) Ucucha 05:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]