Talk:Suzanne Lenglen: Difference between revisions

	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 14, 2005.
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Might be interesting to add to the article: [1] - McCart42 06:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With that two sentence lead? It also has no inline citations and one reference listed. I wish I was around in the good old days when you could get anything featured. Quadzilla99 05:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article is currently in no shape to deserve FA status. —Onomatopoeia 12:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First sentence kills it for me. The phrase "who achieved much success in the French and British women's game" is objectionable on several grounds. (1) I hate the use of 'much'. (2) Is the French game different for the British game? (3) Or is the French and British game different from everywhere else. (4) 'Game' or 'sport'? (5) The whole reads like sports journalism rather than an encyclopaedia article (use of game for example). So, how about achieved success in France and Britain?

Currently the article opens with the claim of 31 grand slam titles. Several of these are French open titles from an era when the tournament was open only to French nationals. Is there a general convention on whether these earlier tournaments are regarded as grand slam tournaments?Spamburgler (talk) 01:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are not... she won 8 Majors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Suzanne Lenglen/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Last edited at 20:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 07:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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It seems very improbable. I am fairly convinced that she died of leukaemia, with which she was diagnosed. Possibly a mistake taken from some early source: in these years not many authors were able to distinguish between leukaemia and anaemia. Here and there (but not in the Wikipedia, luckily) I saw the same misunderstanding about Marie Skłodowska-Curie. Marcowy Człowiek (talk) 16:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have to be careful about putting the world hard court titles mixed in with the other major titles. The sourcing is against their inclusion in the same tables. And the Australian was completely removed? Why? The governing bodies of tennis today show Australian/French (from 1925)/Wimbledon/US as the four majors. That's it. Yes, the ILTF said back in 1912 that the World Hard Court was a major... but it also said the World Covered Court was a major along with Wimbledon. The ITF said the US and Australian were not majors back then... shall we remove those? Shall we have a chart with all 7 majors? It makes it very complicated and a bit WP:OR to chart them together. The normal four should be in a chart by themselves and the other chart should contain both the ILTF results. If in one chart then perhaps looking a bit like Rod Laver's chart, that has the pro events separated. But mushed together is a big problem.

And you'll note that in Laver's other charts he has the normal Grand Slam events with 11 titles, and the Pro Slams show another 8. lenglen's should be separated also. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:17, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the Australian Open because she never competed there. You've done something similar with deleting columns from charts in years where a player was active on the tour, but didn't compete in any Grand Slam tournaments. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:48, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The case of Rod Laver is totally different. The Grand Slams and Pro Slams were always separate. The World Hard Courts and Wimbledon were considered in the same class at the time. There are no guidelines for what the chart should look like in either case. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:48, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's easy to source that the World Hard Courts were a major championship; that's not WP:OR. I agree that they have never been retroactively considered a Grand Slam tournament; that's why I labelled the list as "Major finals", not "Grand Slam finals". If you don't like that wording, we can list it as "Championship finals". Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:48, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to see what columns you're talking about that I removed. Usually we start the Grand Slam only chart with the first Major they compete in till they retire. As far as the same class, that all depends on what organization is doing the listing. Wimbledon, WHHC, and WCCC were the only three world championships per the ILTF. That's it. All three at the same level. US and Australia out! But for all player bios we use a Grand Slam chart which includes AU/FR/W/US only. We try to make it easy for our readers to understand so those are the four that should be included (French since 1925). When I say OR what I mean is find some sources that list all the championships together as Grand Slams or Majors: WHCC/WCCC/AU/FR/W/US. My guess is there are no reliable sources that do it. I didn't say not to show the results but they should be separated. And the Australian should show just like it does on Helen Wills article... a bunch of A's. And if the performance timeline shows the WHCC it should also show the WCCC, since they were the same class at the time. We can bring it up at tennis project talk if you like but I feel it should be completely separate or like Laver's chart. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:36, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Observation - I noticed that the mixed results of "A" are included in the performance table for the US Nationals. That's absolutely fine and as it should be. However the same courtesy is not given to the Australasian Championships from 1922-1926 for each of the disciplines. Also, since the World Championship events are included in the charts it should also include the "A" results from the World Covered Court Championships. She started the majors in 1914, so 1913 should be removed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is your reason for wanting to include the Australasian Championships or the WCCCs in the charts? She never participated in either of those tournaments. That is stated in the notes. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:20, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Twofold. One, she never competed in the US National mixed doubles either, yet that is included. Why... because readers expect it. And two, when you have a table of Grand Slam tournament results and World Championship results I expect to see the results of those events. Two missing tournaments looks a little strange when you also have a missing mixed doubles chart with all the "A's" included for the US Nationals. I guess we could get rid of the row for US Nationals in mixed doubles with simply a note so the table is uniform, however it would then be out of sync with players like Helen Wills or Steffi Graf whose charts contain events that they never played. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:01, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is my concern. Readers will see what they expect, they will just assume that everything was the same as today back then, and won't even realize that none of these tournaments were Grand Slam tournaments at the time until 1924. In this era, there was no expectation for the players to play all of the major tournaments, as that became more of the norm afterwards. Very few (if any?) players before 1924 entered all of the tournaments that are now considered majors or Grand Slam tournaments. The earliest Wimbledon champions, for instance, only competed at Wimbledon. Surely, someone like Blanche Bingley isn't missing three or more lines in their performance timeline of nothing but "A"s and "NH"s for the U.S. National Championships, the French Championships, and the Australasian Championships just because those tournaments existed at the time. If William Renshaw and Ernest Renshaw had performance timelines on their pages, they would just include Wimbledon too. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is included in the charts for Wills is fine because she did play primarily after the Grand Slams were inaugurated. There should be different guidelines for the pre-Grand Slam era, the rest of the amateur era, and the Open Era because the landscape of tournaments was very different in all three, and wasn't standardized until the Open Era. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But then the mixed doubles results for the US Nationals should probably be removed. We don't give our readers what they expect.. we give them vital information. If the World Covered Court Championships aren't considered important enough (one of three majors plus the US and Australasian events), then certainly the mixed doubles US Championships that she didn't play is even less so. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:19, 19 November 2019 (UTC) Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:13, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK... so I'm going on about the A's in the mixed doubles results but I look at her career stats page and it says she played mixed doubles in 1921 at the US Nationals and lost in the first round. Do we know which is correct? I'm having trouble find the mixed draw. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:47, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Found the newspaper article that says she was still too distraught to play mixed doubles at Longwood (which was played a week after the singles and doubles). Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find the draw either. I know for sure she didn't play, but not whether she remained in the draw and defaulted. Does that source mention that? I assumed she wasn't in the draw at all because there is no mention of her mixed doubles partner in either book (whereas it is mentioned that Mallory was her doubles partner). Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:32, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it does say who she was supposed to play with in an earlier article... It was Billy Johnston who wound up winning the event with Mary Browne. They don't show the draw in the papers, but they show who won each days rounds. It doesn't look like they ever formally entered her in the mixed doubles... just that the event was hoping she would make it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spauldings annual had the mixed draw. I pointed it out and it has been added to the main repository at tennisforum. No need to post it here but I'll post it on your talk page. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Suzanne Lenglen/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kosack (talk · contribs) 07:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll pick this one up, will post review as soon as possible. Kosack (talk) 07:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Initial review

• I can't see any obvious ref for her full name. Could do with adding one either here, in the infobox or the early life section.
  • Added. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• A few things worth linking perhaps, Grand Slam, Paris, Wimbledon, French Championships (I'm assuming this is the French Open?).
  • Added all of those. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• The lead ends a little abruptly, no mention of her professional career or later life?
  • Filled in her honours. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:42, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Could probably link French Riviera.
  • Done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "After an opening round default", matches ending default are mentioned several times in the text but I'm not really sure what you mean by default. I assume it's the withdrawal of her opponent? Is there a relevant link?
  • That is correct. I made it clearer: "After her opponent defaulted in the opening round" Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:55, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• "an American who moved to England a year earlier", who had moved perhaps? The tense sounds a little off in the current form I would say.
  • Yes, done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:55, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "Her victory in singles at the against high-ranking British player", something missing from this sentence.
  • "at the" shouldn't have been there. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• "By April, Lenglen defeated Ryan in the final of another singles event in Cannes", I'm not sure by' ' April works here. It was either in April or it wasn't.
  • Changed to "during". Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "some instances had the opportunity to play singles matches against male players", does the source mention if she won any of these matches. No doubt they were only Exhibition matches but it would be interesting to note if she did win matches over male players.
  • I looked, and it says there is no record of any results. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:01, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "The match set the record for most games in a Wimbledon final with 44", worth distinguishing that it was the longest women's final not overall final.
  • Specified. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:06, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Centre Court can be linked.
  • Done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:06, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• "Lenglen played and won two events", played is a little redundant here.
  • Changed to "won both of her". Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:07, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "She did not played the singles event", a little off here.
  • Done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:08, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "with a French partner in Diddie Vlasto", previous mentions of Vlasto have used her given name Julie. It's a bit confusing to refer to her by another name out of the blue.
  • Fixed (to Julie). Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:10, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• " followed by her second singles match the day", sentence is incomplete.
  • added missing "of". Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:10, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "previously turned down offer of 200,000 francs", I'm unsure if this should be an offer or offers but it doesn't work in its current form.
  • "an offer" Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Add links for Madison Square Garden, Public Auditorium and Grand Olympic Auditorium.
  • Done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Is Charles B. Cochran the same Charles Cochran mentioned here?
  • Yes, added. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Why do the links for Dora Koring and Karel Kozeluh not use the diacritics of the article titles?
  • They should, fixed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Of the three football clubs mentioned, two use the F.C. format while Manchester United does not. I'm assuming this is due to the clash with place names but I would maintain consistency in the format otherwise it looks a little odd.
  • Added F.C. to Man U. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there a reference for the mentioned program that can be added to the quotes?
  • Yes, added. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:37, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Link double bagel to Bagel (tennis).
  • Done. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:15, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• "The press built up the rivalry between Lenglen and Molla Mallory", is there a need to use her first name again at the start of the second paragraph?
  • No, removed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:15, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "She never faced in Matthey in 1914", I'm assuming the first use of in is a typo but worth checking.
  • Fixed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:17, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "which were sold at as low as $2 for a seat", is the at necessary here?
  • Removed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:16, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• There's not much on her life after tennis it seems. We go from 1927 to her death in 1938 with nothing in between?
  • Good catch, I expanded this section a lot. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Source for her burial site?
  • Filled in. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Is the green and red colouring in the table denoting the tournament or the surface the match was played on?
  • It is denoting the tournament. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:18, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• In ref 113, The New York Times should be using the newspaper parameter like the ref immediately after.
  • Fixed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Ref 119 needs an accessdate.
  • See below. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Ref 120 needs filling out, publisher, author and publishing date.
  • I think this one has everything? It's not an article. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Obviously I can't check the majority of references given they are offline but a spot check of the web pages appears fine.

This is what I picked out on an initial run through. I've performed some minor grammatical fixes where the mistakes were obvious. Feel free to review them though if you wish. A nice article overall on an interesting character. Placed on hold while the points above are addressed. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This has been on hold for nearly two weeks now. Most of the issues have been addressed but there appears to be one or two outstanding. Are there any issues with those? Kosack (talk) 08:45, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and the time to go through such a long article, Kosack! Sorry for the delay, I had a few of these reviews to address at once. I believe I took care of everything above. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, didn't mean to rush you. This is an extremely thorough article and a nice piece of work. I'm happy it meets the GA criteria, promoting. Kosack (talk) 09:31, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no expert but surely this can't be far off featured level quality? A very interesting read and I'm really enjoying articles like Lenglen–Mallory match at the 1921 U.S. National Championships as well. This is the sort of thing that makes Wikipedia truly great in my view. Spiderone 23:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Spiderone! I'm working towards it, nearly there. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 20:25, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since Lenglen was diagnosed with leukemia three weeks before she died, how is this not mentioned in the article? Whether it's the Olympics or Tennis Hall of fame mentioning it, it is the indirect cause of her death. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:21, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both of her biographies say she died from pernicious anemia, and so do the Olympics and the Tennis Hall of Fame. There's no mention of leukemia. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:47, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This has been written about since she died. Tennis Hall of Fame tells of it here. The official Olympic data source tells of it here. The WTA has the following article. Tennis UK also mentioned it. She was diagnosed with leukemia and died three wees later of pernicious anemia. Many sources just say she died of leukemia so it is very odd not to see it here. Even more recent press releases. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think most of those sources are just copying our old Wikipedia article, which included that information without a source (and it may have become a WP:HOAX). I haven't seen any sources that predate Wikipedia that have that information. Even the recent update of the Little book from 2007 that corrects some of the mistakes from the 1988 edition does not mention it. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So we can use these sources only when it fits our beliefs? That's news to me. And I didn't say she died of leukemia, she died of pernicious anemia. But per sources we use day in and day out she had leukemia. Sports Illustrated also did a full piece on her death with doctors saying the symptoms don't match the death. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:14, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've read that article before. They don't advocate for her symptoms matching leukemia either, and there is just a passing mention. I tried to find a source from that time to verify that she had leukemia, but I couldn't. The books list a whole bunch of health issues that she suffered from, but not leukemia. Given that they used hundreds of secondary sources to gather that information, I can't imagine they missed something that important. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look how long president William Henry Harrison was said to have died from a cold that turned into pneumonia while giving a speech in the rain. That has recently been debunked in favor of septic shock from poor water quality. I don't read French so I can't check the French newspapers from July 1938. I'll look for someone who can. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:53, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are definitely reliable sources stating that she died from leukemia. For instance this Guardian article from 1986.--Wolbo (talk) 00:19, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The French wikipedia also uses Leukemia as what she died from. This French article also says leukemia. So does this French article. I can't tell what this newspaper from 1938 says on page one or page four. With all these sources the article seems incomplete without a mention. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:26, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for finding those, Fyunck(click) and Wolbo! I didn't know France had a searchable newspaper archive. So I guess we didn't make it up then. I can't see the source Wolbo posted though (is it possible to clip?), and the links for those old articles don't lead to a specific article. Separately, I found these two articles using that archive: [2] and [3], that both date to 30 June. If the cause of death really was leukemia, I wanted to find that mentioned in an obituary from 5 July (or a little bit after). Otherwise, I'd just put that she had leukemia. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well we know that diagnoses from 1938 can be a bit iffy. Leukemia, pernicious (deadly) anemia, or other disorders. We should probably not make her actual death so definite. Something like:

• Lenglen had multiple health issues following her retirement, most notably suffering from appendicitis and having her appendix removed in October 1934. In June 1938 some news sources say she was diagnosed with leukemia.(source) In the following three weeks her health declined drastically and she died on 4 July 1938 at the age of 39.(source) The listed cause of death was pernicious anemia,(source) but later clinical speculation has made that diagnosis murky.(source)

That way we don't speculate, we simply write what we actually know and leave it to our readers what to follow up on. As Sportsfan77777 said, the Sports Illustrated clinical hindsight says there could be other causes than leukemia or pernicious anemia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:34, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it to something like that. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 20:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I tweaked it a little more to show the uncertainty of her death. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can change the first line to she was diagnosed with pernicious anemia three weeks before she died instead of saying she was ill with it, as that's well sourced. If there was an old source that said she was diagnosed with leukemia at the same time, I would it add there as well. But right now, I only have the 30 June sources. Did you see anything different? Sportsfan77777 (talk) 03:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

True... either "diagnosed with" or "treated for" pernicious anemia would work just fine. Right now I can't find original newspapers that said she was diagnoses with leukemia 3 weeks before. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:45, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are number of short footnote citations to Little (1988) - The first published version of "Suzanne Lenglen: Tennis Idol of the Twenties" (I am guessing). The revised version (2007) is listed in the bibliography but not the 1988 version. I thought about changing the Little (1988) citations to Little (2007), but of course, I don't have a copy of that book so can't be sure the page numbers match-up. I think the citations should be changed to Little (2007) or Little (1988) added to the bibliography (first method preferred I guess). We should also probably note in the bibliography section that Little (2007) is a revised version. What do you think? Gricharduk (talk) 06:19, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks! Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great - So quick! Thanks a lot Sportsfan77777. Gricharduk (talk) 06:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]